ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
When Deezer HiFi became available for my Beosound Moment I upgraded immediately. And I couldn't hear any difference.
I was curious to know whether it is common to be able to tell the difference between lossless streaming and well-compressed audio. I found a interesting web site which gives you a chance to test our own ears:
The results for me were dismal. Of the 6 samples I picked the lossless track as "best" only 2 time, exactly what you'd expect if picking randomly. My listening setup was a pair of Beloab 8000s using the onboard DAC of my PC which is admittedly not the highest quality DAC available. Still, it confirmed my experience with Deezer Hifi: my ears are not good enough to hear the difference between lossless and standard Deezer.
My score was 2/6.
Please post your results.
Sources: 2x Beosound Moment • 4x Beosound Essence Mk II Speakers: 3x Beolab 8000 • 2x Beolab 6000 • 2x Beolab 3 • 3x Beolab 2 Integrated: 1x Beosound 2 • 1x Beosound Level • 4x BeoPlay M5 • 1x BeoPlay A6 Control: 16x* Essence Remote • 1x Beoremote Halo
* Yes, really! 🤦♂️
There is no benefit to use a lossless streaming when the master file was created with the idea of being played in a lo-fi equipment...
I think it depends on the mixing and everything else that goes with it. Remastered for iTunes albums sound good. I bought some linn tracks and they were very good but a haslle to play. I use iTunes only for streaming and the quality varies. Too many variables, like the system you play it on, the room you play it in etc. etc. etc.
Personally my preference is for Vinyl played through a Valve system which to me anyway sounds more musical - but even there it is dependant on how the album was mixed and produced.
I guess lossless does sound better but depends on the album and what you are listening to it on.A poorly mixed album will sound bad on whatever medium you choose and a well mixed/produced album will sound great on a reasonable system.
Having said that re-mastering seems to work at least with films. I watch a lot of old films from the 50's and 60's and the quality of the restored ones is excellent.
I just did 3 out of 6 using BL5.
I'll try again using my apple macbook and SPDIF connection to see how it goes...
Hi-res music needs a proper DAC - neither a PC nor the Moment have audiophile DAC's.
Whether you can be (or any of us) can bothered to go that route is a different question.
And whether the uplift in quality is worth the extra cost is subjective.
If you're unsatisfied with regular Deezer or Deezer Hifi on your current setup, that's the question I'd ask myself.
Recently I thought about going down the (more) audiophile streamer / DAC route, for 2 reasons.
1.My Moment / BL18's (plus BL19 on occasion) music listening setup is good, but I wouldn't describe it perfectly satisfying. (I end up Tidal streaming through USB on my MBP to very good headphones, for when I really want to get lost in some music). The Moment / BL18's setup is good enough for everything but a serious listen. I don't have space for 5s/50s.
2. The experience using the Moment / iPad app is unsatisfying....especially when it comes to discovery, browsing, creating playlists etc. It's fine, but something like Roon looks much much better. If I went down the audiophiles route, I'd pay the 100 euro per year for the Roon experience, it really does look fabulous.
Anyway, if your question is more one of curiosity as opposed to serious consideration of "improving your experience", then a PC DAC won't expose the full benefits of lossless or hi-res.
I'd be interested for those forum members who introduced an Auralic streamer into their setup, what were their experiences. The Auralic is seen as a step up from Sonos, Bluesound streamers, but sill not what the audiophiles community would scribe as a top end solution.
I did that test some time ago.
Don’t remember the exact results anymore - but it did not convince me to change to a lossless streaming service.
I am happy with my Spotify Premium account with my setups, my rooms and ears....
That shouldn’t keep me from trying out lossless streaming on a long term basis....some day.
Who knows, maybe the differences only become noticeable over time (or you get used to it sounding a bit different).
There have been made quite a few tests like this over time.
Check out this one, that Archimago did some years ago
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/02/high-bitrate-mp3-internet-blind-test.html
Here is a part of his conclusion:
‘Going into this endeavor, I expressed that my reason to do this test was to find out whether MP3 encoding resulted in significant deterioration in sound quality. From what I can tell with 151 responses from around the world, a majority did not find a significant deterioration, and surprisingly most thought it sounded superior!’
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Very interesting thread.... For a long time I resisted the trend to stream as I was convinced (from what I had read) that sticking to CDs was guaranteeing me a better sound than iTunes or Spotify.
Then several years ago I went round to a friends house where he was streaming Spotify into his Sonos system. I haven’t bought a CD since...
And I can’t tell the difference when I switch between the different quality settings on Spotify either. All listened to through Beolab 9s
All probably due to me being 58 years old....
Cheers
Nigel
Many people prefer the vivid picture settings on TV's out of the box.
Doesn't mean there aren't better ways for some, when it comes to viewing or listening.
The only test that matters is whether an individual is satisfied with what they have, presumably regular streaming. There are ways to improve the experience, be that equipment or better sources - but I completely accept it can be a hassle, and for most probably not worth the effort / cost.
Not everyone's ears and / or preferences are the same.
Dom
2x BeoSystem 3, BeoSystem 5000, BeoSystem 6500, 2x BeoMaster 7000, 2 pair of BeoLab Penta mk2, AV 7000, Beolab 4000, BeoSound 4000, Playmaker, BeoLab 2500, S-45, S-45.2, RL-140, CX-50, C-75, 3x CX-100, 3x MCL2 link rooms, 3x Beolab 2000, M3, P2, Earset, A8 earphones, A3, 2x 4001 relay, H3, H3 ANC, H6, 2014 Audi S5 with B&O sound, and ambio
Another interesting exercise is to compare the various stream qualities available on web radio from a station such as Radio Paradise. I am convinced that a good DAC smooths out the MP3 type streams to the extent that you cannot hear any difference from listening to a so called lossless stream.
Graham
So I've been through this exercise a bit.
On my MacBook Pro, with a pretty high quality set of cans attached, if I switch between the various streaming qualities on Tidal there's a clear and incremental improvement.
The Tidal app on the laptop allows you to stream in Normal, High, Hifi (Lossless) and Master.
And the difference between Hifi (Lossless) and Master is very noticeable.
The Master tier, not available for that many albums, is I think their MQA stream, and they truly sound very very lovely indeed.
I can't see why running that experiment through a proper audiophile DAC and speakers won't illustrate similar results.
Now I don't have an audiophile main listening setup - a Moment, FLAC rips on a NAS, and a set of BL18s don't equate to an audiophile setup. And I'm fine with that, and I perfectly understand that it should be fine for most.
But that doesn't mean that improving the source, transport and speakers can't produce audibly better results.
Indeed, in my example described above I've only improved the source, and the sound improves each time.
Again, Masters sounds superb.
Sandyb:So I've been through this exercise a bit. On my MacBook Pro, with a pretty high quality set of cans attached, if I switch between the various streaming qualities on Tidal there's a clear and incremental improvement. The Tidal app on the laptop allows you to stream in Normal, High, Hifi (Lossless) and Master. And the difference between Hifi (Lossless) and Master is very noticeable. The Master tier, not available for that many albums, is I think their MQA stream, and they truly sound very very lovely indeed. I can't see why running that experiment through a proper audiophile DAC and speakers won't illustrate similar results. Now I don't have an audiophile main listening setup - a Moment, FLAC rips on a NAS, and a set of BL18s don't equate to an audiophile setup. And I'm fine with that, and I perfectly understand that it should be fine for most. But that doesn't mean that improving the source, transport and speakers can't produce audibly better results. Indeed, in my example described above I've only improved the source, and the sound improves each time. Again, Masters sounds superb.
vikinger:Another interesting exercise is to compare the various stream qualities available on web radio from a station such as Radio Paradise. I am convinced that a good DAC smooths out the MP3 type streams to the extent that you cannot hear any difference from listening to a so called lossless stream. Graham
9
Sandyb: So I've been through this exercise a bit. On my MacBook Pro, with a pretty high quality set of cans attached, if I switch between the various streaming qualities on Tidal there's a clear and incremental improvement. The Tidal app on the laptop allows you to stream in Normal, High, Hifi (Lossless) and Master. And the difference between Hifi (Lossless) and Master is very noticeable. The Master tier, not available for that many albums, is I think their MQA stream, and they truly sound very very lovely indeed. I can't see why running that experiment through a proper audiophile DAC and speakers won't illustrate similar results. Now I don't have an audiophile main listening setup - a Moment, FLAC rips on a NAS, and a set of BL18s don't equate to an audiophile setup. And I'm fine with that, and I perfectly understand that it should be fine for most. But that doesn't mean that improving the source, transport and speakers can't produce audibly better results. Indeed, in my example described above I've only improved the source, and the sound improves each time. Again, Masters sounds superb.
From a conspiracy theorist - I would expect there to b an audible difference between each available quality level from any given supplier - How else could they justify the expense of their premium services! My question would be - are those differences deliberate?
As an example, years ago when I was a sky customer I used to have the cream coloured SD sky plus box. I then bought a new sky HD box from eBay to take advantage of the freeview HD channels. There was the expected quality leap between the SD and HD channels as you'd expect - what i hadnt expected was how much worse the SD channels were compared to the sky plus box!! After a quick online search others had spotted it too - sky had presumably made the SD performance worse to exagerate the improvement given by HD.
As a trial you can record one of the highest quality tracks and then downsample it yourself to the stated quality of one of the lesser subscriptions and redo your listening test.
I would be very surprised if you heard the same reduction in quality apparent in the stream.
The other problem is pre-supposing each quality version of a particular track on offer originates from the same mix/master file - there's every chance that this is not the case. The above test should help eliminate this as a variable.
Ban boring signatures!
Duels: Never listened to radio paradise before but I’ve now had it on all morning. What an awesome selection of music! I’m a convert.
Never listened to radio paradise before but I’ve now had it on all morning. What an awesome selection of music! I’m a convert.
Certainly the radio station that get the most playtime in my home!
It’s commercial free - user support is welcome (and needed).
If you don’t already know it, there is an app for the ATV4, with gorgeous pictures along with the music.
There you can choose the different streaming options including FLAC lossless.
Even the web player is nice - if you want to dig into, what is playing.
Millemissen:Certainly the radio station that get the most playtime in my home!
BS Moment, BS Core, BG 4002, BC 4500, BS1, BL18, BL19, BL8000 + RCV1, A6, M5, M3, A1, P6 (tks Botty), H5, TR1
Millemissen:Certainly the radio station that get the most playtime in my home! It’s commercial free - user support is welcome (and needed). If you don’t already know it, there is an app for the ATV4, with gorgeous pictures along with the music. There you can choose the different streaming options including FLAC lossless. Even the web player is nice - if you want to dig into, what is playing. MM There is a tv - and there is a BV.
mbolo01:When i press my Essence remote in the morning, RP is always starting and I find difficult to stop it for another source as the selection is so good! BS Moment, BS Core, BS 1, BL 18, BL 19, A6, M5, M3, A1, H5
chucky: MM can you explain spotify through a core or essence this is simple airplay, it uses your ipad as source right?
MM can you explain spotify through a core or essence this is simple airplay, it uses your ipad as source right?
I am not quite sure how to understand your question!
But....using Spotify Connect with the Essence/Core has got nothing to do with AirPlay.
With the Connect version the stream is fetched by the audio device (in my case the Essence) and the iPad (= the app on the iPad) is just a remote.
Similar to how Chromecast works - but much better integrated with the Bang & Olufsen app and also distributable via NL (with some exceptions).
It is almost as well integrated as Deezer is - only you have to use the native Spotify app for choosing music, managing playlists...
The basic functions can be controlled - when joined on the BV’s - with a beoremote (stop/play, next etc).
Does that answer your question?
Duels: vikinger: Another interesting exercise is to compare the various stream qualities available on web radio from a station such as Radio Paradise. I am convinced that a good DAC smooths out the MP3 type streams to the extent that you cannot hear any difference from listening to a so called lossless stream. Graham Thanks for the comment Graham. Never listened to radio paradise before but I’ve now had it on all morning. What an awesome selection of music! I’m a convert.
vikinger: Another interesting exercise is to compare the various stream qualities available on web radio from a station such as Radio Paradise. I am convinced that a good DAC smooths out the MP3 type streams to the extent that you cannot hear any difference from listening to a so called lossless stream. Graham
Thanks for the comment Graham. Never listened to radio paradise before but I’ve now had it on all morning. What an awesome selection of music! I’m a convert.
I've listened to RP for some years now, and send them the odd $10 when they have a funding appeal. This is a man and wife team... and Bill gave me some personal help when I lost the slides from the previous TV player. What the likes of the BBC and Virgin etc could learn from this station ... instead of employing grossly overpaid DJs talking over really poor music selections.
Millemissen:I am not quite sure how to understand your question! But....using Spotify Connect with the Essence/Core has got nothing to do with AirPlay. With the Connect version the stream is fetched by the audio device (in my case the Essence) and the iPad (= the app on the iPad) is just a remote. Similar to how Chromecast works - but much better integrated with the Bang & Olufsen app and also distributable via NL (with some exceptions). It is almost as well integrated as Deezer is - only you have to use the native Spotify app for choosing music, managing playlists... The basic functions can be controlled - when joined on the BV’s - with a beoremote (stop/play, next etc). Does that answer your question? MM There is a tv - and there is a BV.
vikinger: What the likes of the BBC and Virgin etc could learn from this station ... instead of employing grossly overpaid DJs talking over really poor music selections. Graham
What the likes of the BBC and Virgin etc could learn from this station ... instead of employing grossly overpaid DJs talking over really poor music selections.
Totally agree!
Actually Radio Paradise is everywhere in my home.
Here is my A3 with the (old) RP app - it still runs on the ‘ancient’ iPad in there.
(The small puck is a bt remote - quite handy)
Radio Paradise is a must - lossless or not.
vikinger:What the likes of the BBC and Virgin etc could learn from this station ... instead of employing grossly overpaid DJs talking over really poor music selections. Graham
How can I actually set the quality level of a stream e.g. Spotify or TineIn?
stampfki: How can I actually set the quality level of a stream e.g. Spotify or TineIn?
TuneIn this way.
The streaming quality depends on what option the stations offer.
As far as I know the built-in TuneIn of the B&O devices alway picks the highest available.
With Spotify you can’t see it - but Premium is 320 kbps Ogg Vorbis, if you trust them........or your ears.
Sandyb: Hi-res music needs a proper DAC - neither a PC nor the Moment have audiophile DAC's. Whether you can be (or any of us) can bothered to go that route is a different question. And whether the uplift in quality is worth the extra cost is subjective. If you're unsatisfied with regular Deezer or Deezer Hifi on your current setup, that's the question I'd ask myself. Recently I thought about going down the (more) audiophile streamer / DAC route, for 2 reasons. 1.My Moment / BL18's (plus BL19 on occasion) music listening setup is good, but I wouldn't describe it perfectly satisfying. (I end up Tidal streaming through USB on my MBP to very good headphones, for when I really want to get lost in some music). The Moment / BL18's setup is good enough for everything but a serious listen. I don't have space for 5s/50s. 2. The experience using the Moment / iPad app is unsatisfying....especially when it comes to discovery, browsing, creating playlists etc. It's fine, but something like Roon looks much much better. If I went down the audiophiles route, I'd pay the 100 euro per year for the Roon experience, it really does look fabulous. Anyway, if your question is more one of curiosity as opposed to serious consideration of "improving your experience", then a PC DAC won't expose the full benefits of lossless or hi-res. I'd be interested for those forum members who introduced an Auralic streamer into their setup, what were their experiences. The Auralic is seen as a step up from Sonos, Bluesound streamers, but sill not what the audiophiles community would scribe as a top end solution.
Sandy,
streaming the above test files and Qobuz Hi Res files through my Chord Qutest DAC ... I DO hear a difference.
And it's not just me. Others, I have been asking, hear a difference as well.
Streaming Hi Res files through my Beosound 2, even up to 24 Bit/ 192 kHz, which the BS2 is capable of ... I do NOT hear a difference at all between Hi Res and CD quality.
Streaming Bridge is "Lindemann Limetree Bridge" connected to my DAC.
Ulrike
Agreed, and that was kind of my point.
A good DAC and hi-res (or even lossless streaming) will sound better.
But it requires a good DAC, and the Chord is by all accounts a very good one.
I guess the OP's question was about regular streams (320 MP3's I guess) vs lossless streams (CD or near CD quality). Hi-res I guess is one step higher, and I don't have too much experience of QoBuzz Hi-res. I'm limited to Tidal Masters / MQA, which can sound really very impressive.
But I can't listen to Tidal Masters or Qobuz on my current B&O set up (only on headphones / MacBook Pro) - hence I am thinking of introducing a big end DAC / streamer into the mix, plus the ability to use Roon.
Just in case, the literal answer to @stampfki's question ("How can I...") for Spotify is here:
https://support.spotify.com/us/using_spotify/system_settings/high-quality-streaming/
Yes, as @MM says you don't know absolutely positively what you're getting: For the iOS App, they vaguely say "These quality levels are **equivalent to approximately** 96/160/320K." They say the desktop and iOS apps use Ogg Vorbis, and the web App uses AAC (128/256K). Moreover, there is no guarantee that the app doesn't automatically adjust them to ameliorate temporary bandwidth/buffering mishaps, even though there is also an "Automatic" setting.
Sandyb: Agreed, and that was kind of my point. A good DAC and hi-res (or even lossless streaming) will sound better. But it requires a good DAC, and the Chord is by all accounts a very good one. I guess the OP's question was about regular streams (320 MP3's I guess) vs lossless streams (CD or near CD quality). Hi-res I guess is one step higher, and I don't have too much experience of QoBuzz Hi-res. I'm limited to Tidal Masters / MQA, which can sound really very impressive. But I can't listen to Tidal Masters or Qobuz on my current B&O set up (only on headphones / MacBook Pro) - hence I am thinking of introducing a big end DAC / streamer into the mix, plus the ability to use Roon.
Introducing those into your setup surely will give you great pleasure.
The Qutest DAC I can recommend, sounds great. And because of fpga you even can use it with chromecast without jitter.
Don't know where you're located - Qobuz sometimes gave a one month trial.
All the best,
Depending on the equipment used and the way you listen to music, IMHO there is a discernable difference between the HI-res suppliers and standard streaming, even between the different streaming services.
If you hear music, on the go (as opposed to sit down, select your music, concentrate and listen) there is probably no discernable difference.
Using good quality headphones, a portable dac, and streaming Hi-res services through an iPhone, the improvement is immediately noticeable and the same is true as when using good quality audio equipment. Radio Paradise is a great station but - the way I listen - it's wallpaper music and sounds like what it is: a radio station that plays great music. Oh, for the return of BBC FM radio concerts!
I have used Qobuz which I believe is the best for my ears at the moment and I only cancelled because its library is so limited. Apart from that it is excellent.
The Tidal premium is my choice for the moment for both sound quality and the library interface although, curiously, I am not a lover of their Masters' recordings as they sometimes tend to sound to me as through someone has switched the loudness control on.
Amazon premium I also subscribe to but it's almost a give away price because of the other Amazon services I subscribe to and their library fills in the gaps left by Tidal. There is definitely a difference between their standard and premium services but, once again, the user interface is hopeless.
Apple, I give too much to already but when they enter the premium market it will be time to reconsider.
The difference to my ears is like having more pixels in a great photograph. Whatever res you look at it is still very good; however, the more you examine it the more the added pixels give depth, bring out the colours, shade and add nuance.
There are many pitfalls in this question / discussion.
One of the biggest ones is that you should not assume that just because your service is advertised as "lossless", then the content that it's delivering is also "lossless".
For example, see this posting.
Another is the question of whether the original track itself is lossless. I've spoken to a couple of artists who deliver their masters to the streaming service as a PCM file (because they have to), but this is a decoded version of a lossy encode/decode process (to make it easier to pass the track around for approvals, for example...)
I don't want to rat on anyone, but it's not unusual to hear a track that is streaming in FLAC 16/44.1 from a lossless streaming service - but to hear MP3-like artefacts.
Next is the question of exactly how the decoders and the audio processing stream is behaving in a given system.
For example, see a summary of these potential problems in this posting.
Next is the question of the program material. An MP3 encode / decode process can perfectly replicate a sine wave. It will be very bad at reproducing a noise-like signal (like applause or a crash cymbal). Temporal envelopes are also a factor (MP3 artefacts on a xylophone are usually easy to hear whereas 'cello: maybe not...) So, IF there's a difference, then you might not hear it all the time on all types of materials.
Then, the other issues that are normally raised (like the quality of the hardware, or the hearing abilities of the listener) can be discussed... But usually, these aren't part of the equation, because the artefacts that are generated by lossy codec's are different from things like the noise floor of an amplifier or the intermodulation distortion of a tweeter. (For example, if you have two colour photos, one brighter than the other, you'll notice the difference on a black and white monitor - the difference between the two is different from the limitations of the screen you're using to look at them)
-geoff
Interresting as ever…
When I was younger, I used to "try to" make music. It was times of synthesizers, Ataris and MIDI (already DIN connectors…).I had a friend who add a lot of stuff but one day it sold it all and kept just a piano.I asked why, it was so funny all those things to configure… "Because i was doing more IT han music" he said.
In some way I believe, at least for me that it is quite a dead end to want "ALWAYS" the better quality because what's matter is the music.Of course i dont want to say that any 8 bit mono recording of Rachmaninov will be good enough. But you know the debate background music Vs serious listening ? I'm in the middle, and if I enjoy everyday the sound of my BL4000 (thanks Geoff!) I'm also to the third SP cartridge, without really hearing any difference between the three, known as theoretically very different.
So, what i wanted to say, is that as long as i dont hear obvious ugly artefacts, I just enjoy the music, be it 128Kbps or full 16bits AIFF.
MaxH:it's wallpaper music
Geoff Martin:There are many pitfalls in this question / discussion.
CB:If I can add my own experience: it's easier to hear faults than improvements; you will notice more difference if you are used to listening to high quality sound and then switch to lower quality, than the opposite.
I had this experience when a friend starting giving me fine wines to drink about 15 years ago. They didn't seem a lot different, only slightly better and not worth the extra money. And then I tried drinking cheap wines again, and it was a disaster: so many bad flavors I had never noticed before.
I'm really not sure he did me a favor by giving me the good stuff. When I didn't know any better, I was perfectly content drinking the plonk.
Jacques