ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Hello everyone on Beoworld!
I have recently purchased Beolab 20s and 17's for my home theater set up. While I love the depth and clarity of this BL20 speakers, I can't hear any thumping bass that others are talking about. I am wondering If the mistake is on my end. The bass response is very weak. I am not a bass head and not looking for heart pounding bass but wanted very clean and tight bass.
Thanks for responding, yes, I tried the position switch. It is set to "Free Standing" from the start.
Speaker placement can also have a strange effect. Are they right against a wall? If so, try moving them forwards 30cm.
Thanks 9 LEE!
I've moved the speakers forwards 30cm, I found no noticeable difference.
The speakers were 30cm from the back wall, now they are 60cm. The right speaker is 60cm from back wall and 15 cm from right wall (tried 30 cm as well).
Appreciate your tip.
Well, there are two obvious things that *it ought **not** to be* -- but if you're at the end of your rope, you might as well check them:
a) It-ought-not-to-be the Marantz stripping out a sub-woofer LFE, regardless of your (apparently) correct settings. The way you would test that is to take the output of the source device directly to the line-in for the BL20's, not passing it thru the Marantz AVR, or any of the other devices in your chain.
b) It-ought-not-to-be a speaker phase mis-match, but that's the classic bass-killer, where someone swaps the speaker wires for one of the two speakers. Now, that should *never* happen because you are using RCA signal cables, so there's no place to screw up in your chain -- unless a wire is crossed inside the BL20's or other equipment, and that's sooooo unlikely! (Or a virtual wire, setting some phase control to 180 degrees.) But the way you test is simple: run just one speaker at a time. If the bass is surprisingly better with just the Left, and/or just the Right, but much reduced with both of them,... well, surprise!
I would vote for (a) because it's such a black-box rather than (b) because it requires manufacturer error. But as I said, I'd normally vote for *neither* of these being likely. But hey, if you're still scratching your head, at least the experiments are easy.
Thank trackbeo, I think I found something.
While doing speaker calibration I got "Out of phase" errors, which I ignored. I've repeated the room calibration again using Audessy on my Marantz & Yamaha and I've received the same error on both. I tried switching the L/R connections with no luck. I did check my connections, everything is correct. I am able to calibrate non B&O speakers, with no errors.
I even tried connecting my source to Speakers directly using RCA cables, the bass did not improve (on both speakers).
Does this mean it is manufacturing error?
Hard to imagine, isn't it? So I would have a bullet-proof demo before going back to the dealer: Take some mono test tones CD (or iPod track) and make or buy a single RCA Y-cable so you are guaranteed feeding both speakers identically (shouldn't matter which channel output, but want it to be the same (single) channel to also prove that it isn't your source component that's ^%#&ed-up) -- and do the same left vs. right vs. left+right. You don't want the dealer to finger-point the error away at some other equipment. If the phase is actually wrong on one speaker, together they should reduce the bass at a wide range of frequencies -- like, all of them! Whereas if your room modes & speaker placement are responsible, a frequency sweep will "wow" in and out, as it passes by the fundamental frequency and multiples for your room.
I'm no expert on these speakers and all their features, so double-check yourself and let's ask for help from others: Is there some feature in the hardware that does processing, which can be turned on and off individually, i.e. you have "it" (whatever-it-is) turned on in one speaker but not the other one? The delay of processing in one speaker and not the other might be unlucky enough to be half-wavelength of some bass frequency. You'd hear that case in a frequency sweep thru both speakers by a single dip in the whole range, rather than multiples like room modes, or all-frequencies like a phase/wire mixup.
FWIW, it *still* seems highly unlikely, although the "out of phase" error from auto-calibration software does bolster that case. So I would go to great lengths to prove it isn't something else. Also read the manual for the calibration errors list and see what they suggest "out of phase" error might be caused by, other than swapping one speaker's +/- wires, which obviously you cannot have done. (Hmm, errm, well, "obviously you cannot have done" unless... the RCA cables have been mis-manufactured? It's a huge long-shot, but grab a VOM and make sure both RCA cables are tip-to-tip and sleeve-to-sleeve, not crossed-over. That's the reason I said above, "make or buy a single RCA Y-cable", i.e. not using yours.)
The "out of phase" error could also stem from whether or not the B&O speakers and whatever amp you are using for the other speakers are inverting or non inverting amps. Some amps are designed so that the output of the amplifier is in phase with the input, some invert the signal so the output of the amp is out of phase with the input. If the B&Os are, say, non inverting amps and the amps used in the receiver or whatever to drive the center and/or surrounds are inverting amps you'll see a phase error.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Hmm, I had assumed the setup was all B&O, with BL20's as front R/L, and 3 BL17's as Center & surround R/L. The Marantz 8805 is a preamp only, so again assumed the amps were all inside the speakers.
BUT you know what they say about assumptions, because...
I had also assumed the unbalanced RCA outputs were being used. But if the XLR outputs are being used, remember those cables must be examined as potential problems too: both non-inverted *and* inverted signals are provided (to pins 2 and 3, respectively) in the XLR connectors!!! Typically pin 3 is disconnected, but whatever is done, it must be the same for all channels. (All the more reason to test hooking the source component directly to the BL20's. Get the Marantz, its Audyssey, and all the other equipment out of the signal path.)
[Edit: P.S. Before you get mired in tests, remember what you are listening for here: *Only If* they sound bassy when played singly but weak played together, might it be a phase error. Anything else, then these past 3 posts are irrelevant.]
trackbeo: Hmm, I had assumed the setup was all B&O, with BL20's as front R/L, and 3 BL17's as Center & surround R/L. The Marantz 8805 is a preamp only, so again assumed the amps were all inside the speakers. BUT you know what they say about assumptions, because... I had also assumed the unbalanced RCA outputs were being used. But if the XLR outputs are being used, remember those cables must be examined as potential problems too: both non-inverted *and* inverted signals are provided (to pins 2 and 3, respectively) in the XLR connectors!!! Typically pin 3 is disconnected, but whatever is done, it must be the same for all channels. (All the more reason to test hooking the source component directly to the BL20's. Get the Marantz, its Audyssey, and all the other equipment out of the signal path.) [Edit: P.S. Before you get mired in tests, remember what you are listening for here: *Only If* they sound bassy when played singly but weak played together, might it be a phase error. Anything else, then these past 3 posts are irrelevant.]
Good points. Even if the mains were out of phase with the center I wouldn't expect a stereo signal to result in no bass out of the 20s. That speaks to the L and R being out of phase. If you have access to pink noise, or even FM inter station hiss (the OP that is) set to mono and sit directly in between the L and R speakers. You should get a narrow image, the hiss should appear to be coming from a well defined spot in the middle of the two speakers. If it's phasey and spread out side to side the two speakers are out of phase.
Thanks for wonderful tips, @trackbeo & @jeff
I really appreciate all your suggestions.
I will do some more tests today. But I want to answer few questions:
1. The set up is all B&O, except the source/processor.
2. The speakers have amps built in, so no external amps were used.
3. Speakers are connected to B&O Transmitter wirelessly. The B&O Transmitter is connected to Preamps preouts (also tired with Receiver's preouts).
4. I did not use any XLR adapters or cables. The B&O transmitter is connected to preamps's preouts using RCA to powerlink cable.
5. I've also tested connecting my iPads/preamp's output to Speakers directly using RCA Y cable.
6. My Preamp and Receiver worked fine with my non B&O speakers, when calibrated with Audessy. Of course preouts are not used here.
7. I can hear the bass when volume is set high. At this volume, even the other frequencies are amplified, so not listenable.
8. I did not hear any hissing noise. I will listen today carefully again.
@Duels set to 2.0
When I switch to 2.1, no bass from front speakers.
Just to follow up, I am working with B&O tech support. I will update once I find a solution. Thanks for all the suggestions!
My problems continued...
Today one of my BL20's started flashing orange quickly...(two weeks back it was one of my BL17s)..it is a total disaster. It has been a month, never been able to watch one complete movie. Too many signal drop outs, speakers die, no bass, B&O is not helpful. Never going to buy another B&O product. Sorry for the ranting.
After 3 weeks, I got reply from B&O support:
Not really helpful.
Can someone please suggest me the toslink cable mentioned by B&O support? My preamp( Marantz AV 8085) has both balanced and unbalanced preouts. Thanks
startlingnaveen:Just to follow up, I am working with B&O tech support. I will update once I find a solution.
Your problem lies in the Transmitter 1 bass management. If your receiver doesn't have advanced EQ adjustments, you will not be able to overcome the issue.
Ah, you know... A little B&O here, a little there
hi,
3 questions to begin with:
Once I know the answers to these questions, I might have some suggestions - or I'll just have more questions.
Cheers-g
Regarding the out of phase problem, could it be due to the digital processing delay?
Try adding 1.51 m to the real distance of the BL20 and BL17 in the Marantz setup...