ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
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Present: BL90, Core, BL6000, CD7000, Beogram 7000, Essence Remote.
Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4, Moment.
Regarding those articles: Keep in mind the usual click bait on all these social media channels to generate traffic....
I like his channel, largely because he makes nice looking videos, and its a way of keeping up to date with what's going on outside of B&O world.
He does continually, through many of his videos, make the point that the more important aspects are your room and recording / mastering quality. I think most here agree, accept and understand that.
But there are no miracles, or black and white step ups in perceived sound quality from higher res streams.
My experience is pretty much the same - some of the 24/96 streams I listen to on my 50s sound a touch fuller than their lower res equivalents, some dont. I do find any differences are a bit more noticeable through my big over the ear headphones though.
But all told, hi res is just too niche for the vast majority.
Wasn't it always thus though? I never once thought it would become important, let alone mainstream.
I agree.
I suppose, basically, the question is:"How many bits, how fast, and how much digital signal processing, filtering and other stuff is needed to make things sound as they did before digitizing?"
Or perhaps: "Is it possible at all, to repair the damages caused by digitizing?"
Martin
In addition to my first reply, worth noting that Darko's video is called Hi Res Dead for the Mainstream
For niche cases, it may be a touch different.
seethroughyou:
And is this something new. The differences between the "nerds" and the mainstream has been there, was there and is there!
Dillen:I agree. I suppose, basically, the question is: "How many bits, how fast, and how much digital signal processing, filtering and other stuff is needed to make things sound as they did before digitizing?" Or perhaps: "Is it possible at all, to repair the damages caused by digitizing?" Martin
Yes, but I wasn't specifically referring to vinyl but rather how the material sounded originally.Most recordings are done digitally nowadays, even those that also gets a vinyl release.Digitizing causes a complete change to the material in shape of format and envelope.And what I find funny is all the loops and hoops needed to make digital recordings sound "right" again.
At the end of the day, we're trying our best to make noises from cardboard funnels sound like real people playing and singing. "Like being there".That's not an easy task. Particularly when even the material itself has to undergo format changes a couple of times on the way.Vinyl records can indeed sound excellent and so can CDs. I own thousands of both.I would prefer the sound of vinyl to that of CDs if given the choice though, to be honest, I listen more to the music than to the system.- But I'm also brought up with a valve radio in the livingroom. Nowhere near HiFi and still I think it sounded good and I remember all the songs.Martin
Jacques
Dillen:….Digitizing causes a complete change to the material in shape of format and envelope….Martin
seethroughyou: Dillen: ….Digitizing causes a complete change to the material in shape of format and envelope….Martin What do you mean by it “causes a complete change to the format and envelope”. What do you perceive and hear please?
Dillen: ….Digitizing causes a complete change to the material in shape of format and envelope….Martin
….Digitizing causes a complete change to the material in shape of format and envelope….Martin
What do you mean by it “causes a complete change to the format and envelope”. What do you perceive and hear please?
Instead of having the material ("signal") from instruments and voices in the air, directly for your ears to pick up, the material is now being stored as "sound information".It's not being stored in an analogue way. No, it is chopped up in bits, each bit is measured and its size written down as numbers, basically zeros and ones in a long row.In other words, instead of having the real sound, we now have information telling more or less how it sounded.Playing it back changes its format and envelope again - from numbers to vibrations in the air, mimicking the original material.It's fantastic how good results can get, and I enjoy listening to it, but can I tell the difference from the original material? Yes.The difference, I suppose could be compared in some ways to that of having a painting by Van Gogh on the wall or a photo of it on your phone.You can recognize the painting in photos of it - but, it's nowhere near the same as having it right there in front of you to study in details.
The Beogram CD50 has a wonderful sound. In my opinion it's one of the best sounding CD players I have heard - and I have heard many.Studying its technical sides, it's a mystery how it happens to be like this.Looking at numbers and schematics it shouldn't sound anywhere near as good as it actually does but,fortunately, I don't listen to the specs sheet.It simply has a "warmness".Not sure how to describe that in numbers.
If I am to mention one more good sounding digital thingy, it'll have to be the Sugarcubes from Sweet Vinyl.They remove clicks and pops but apart from that, to be honest, I cannot tell any difference in the sound when switching from its input to its output,even at decent volume and with superb material, - and I can tell you there are quite a lot of digital sorcery going on in there.
Ah, that's interesting Martin. I will compare my CD50 to my reference CD player on my reference system (not B&O). The CD50 he's been permanently connected to the Beolab 8000 system for a few years!
Perhaps its more a discussion about which type of music is better suited to Analogue or Digital?
My own personal preference is for Analogue right the way through - vinyl, valve amplification and passive speakers, but that is for Jaz, Easy Listening and some classical and this is the type of music I listen to the most. Analogue seem to make this type of music, fuller and more enjoyable whereas digital seems to make it anaemic.
90's and 00's dance music to me sounds better through digital or solid state. The instruments sound muddled through Analogue.
As already mentioned, there's no doubt that the recording, production and pressing of a recording has a huge effect - I've listened to some new 180g records where the CD or streamed version sounds infinitely better.
A lot of my friends just want music on in the background and happily pay for HiRes streaming services, despite owning equipment that doesn't do it justice - they think I'm slightly odd using old fashioned technology - yet we all enjoy music in our own way regardless of systems. Some people will pay for HiRes regardless of wether it is better or not because they think it is the best available and that to them is important. Most likely people with revealing systems will question it and make their own minds up, but that is not the majority of people who listen to music.
Whether it’s dead or alive is not a debate I want to enter, but I’m just glad that there’s growing interest in the industry toward high-quality sound reproduction, and I hope it creates a bigger market for well-produced remasters of various material.
Personally, I’ll take my hi-res as half-speed mastered 45rpm vinyl from the original master recordings. Played through my B&O equipment, of course!
--Beovision Harmony 77, Beovision Harmony 65 x2, Beovision Contour 48, LG GX 65/Beosound Stage/STB StandBeolab 50s, Beolab 28s, Beolab 18s x3, Beolab 19, Beoplay A9, Beosound Edge, Beosound 2 x2, Beosound 1 x2, Beosound Level x2, Beosound Core x2, Beoplay M3, Beosound 9000, Beogram TX2, Beogram 6500 White Edition, 4000c (on order), Beoremote One x8, Beoremote Halo x3, BLC NL/MLBeoplay H95 x3, Beoplay EQ x2, Beoplay E8, Beoplay E8 Sport, Beosound A1 x2
chartz:Ah, that's interesting Martin. I will compare my CD50 to my reference CD player on my reference system (not B&O). The CD50 he's been permanently connected to the Beolab 8000 system for a few years! Jacques
Hi,
I finally got around to writing a series of blog posts about the pros and cons of "high resolution" digital audio. No opinions, just some of the facts that need to be considered when trying to make up your own mind.
If it's of interest (or, if you can't sleep), the series starts here:
https://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/2021/06/15/high-res-audio-part-1/
and continues for 13 instalments.
Cheers
-geoff
It is funny how this discussion quickly turned into the old and ongoing analog vs digital feud (see the post from Dillen).
John Darko isn’t talking a bit (sorry) about this in his video - he is just stating that highres (meaning Bit/kHz higher than what is used for the CD) will not play any particular role for different reasons, which he mentions.
However, if you need anything more than what Geoff Martin has written in his series (as mentioned above), you could read the latest Musing from Archimago here:
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2021/08/summer-musings-on-dreaded-digital-glare.html
He writes about how the engineeers and other involved people had to learn how to deal with digital recording and that the technology has improved a lot since the early days of digital recordings………and more.
As always from Archimago, this is interesting reading.
He ends writing that ‘it's the skills and intents of the artists and recording engineers that make the most difference to the final sound’…..
……which is similar to what John Darko says at the end of his video.
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
I watch and listen a lot to Darko. Quite entertaining, though he does come to me as a 21st century media presentation of the old hifi magazines you (still) used to see in newsagents.
In this context, I think he is saying 4 main things:-
1. It’s about DRM and competing control of media
2. It’s about Competing hardware and the illusion a is better than b
3. It’s mastering quality and how Record Labels make it more difficult to enjoy hi res
4. It’s about DRM
basically, I see what Darko is saying is that it is iTunes unlearnt all over again for that highly fractionated piece of music pie
Isn't the theme of the video that yes, the mainstream streaming platforms have publicised a up in quality of their streams, but that its half hearted, their hardware doesn't make it easy at all to enjoy the higher rates, and that in the end the vast majority of users dont actually care about anything beyond CD quality.
i.e its a token nod (to high res) but for those who care, their existing choices (hardware / platforms) are as they were before
Mr 10Percent: I watch and listen a lot to Darko. Quite entertaining, though he does come to me as a 21st century media presentation of the old hifi magazines you (still) used to see in newsagents. In this context, I think he is saying 4 main things:- 1. It’s about DRM and competing control of media 2. It’s about Competing hardware and the illusion a is better than b 3. It’s mastering quality and how Record Labels make it more difficult to enjoy hi res 4. It’s about DRM basically, I see what Darko is saying is that it is iTunes unlearnt all over again for that highly fractionated piece of music pie
Sandyb: Isn't the theme of the video that yes, the mainstream streaming platforms have publicised a up in quality of their streams, but that its half hearted, their hardware doesn't make it easy at all to enjoy the higher rates, and that in the end the vast majority of users dont actually care about anything beyond CD quality. i.e its a token nod (to high res) but for those who care, their existing choices (hardware / platforms) are as they were before
Darko is stating that everything is of limited inter-compatibility.
Amazon wont play with anything other than Amazon devices,
There's no B&O that will do it hi-res - who wont do Tidal or Qobus without a third party streamer.
One of my favs - an Auralic G2 has difficulty still lwith Qobus (or rather its Qobuz's coding), Amazon wont even reply to Auralic's enquiries because they are too small (fairly decent Mid-size audiophile-class Hi-Fi manufacturer - so think what will happen with the smaller fish?). Amazon want it all for themselves on their gear).
Auralic (along the Naim and Linn) have stated MQA is bad and will not agree to chipping of their propriety technology with MQA unwrapping chips and code - so Tidal is effectively CD quality on those platforms locked in bypass mode (yet Tidal continue to sneakily differentiate their subscriptions - but only with approved gear).
So B&O is very much in the same boat as many other hifi manufacturers - either join the big-boys club and make clones x10 the price or you buy cheap (and stay on the mobile phone app) but then is it hi-res lo-fi your listening to. Lock how well WISA was adopted (not) - a receiver/transmitter system that can handle some hi-Res. Yet Bluetooth prevails and as Darko states...it aint Hi-Res if its Bluetooth.
Basically, its all greed from the publishers and its either killing the 'serious' hardware producers or stifling them to building mediocre systems.
10
To add,
Wouldn't it be great if you could choose Amazon HR, Spotify HR, Deezer HR, Tidal HR, Qobus HR etc......and paid for the best subscription you see fit on equipment you have also seen fit to buy - whether its a full B&O system or a bunch of monkey-coffin boxes?
The music by the artist is the same song - hopefully not messed about like MQA, and the bit/freq is the max you can pipe down the internet. Imagine what that would do to the hardware industry (from full dCS stacks to your mobile phone app) and the products that would be designed and built?
No. The Publishers want total control you because the scenario above 100% helps you the customer and 100% makes them sweat with having completion and does not suit them and limits your buying choices in both hardware, software and streaming compatibility. (and frankly, they get 99% of the dosh for 1% effort in the whole equipment/artist/paying-customer chain).
I hope Hi-Res does die (briefly) along with these sharks and maybe after 2 attempts these Publishers realise that itunes business model is only good short term while you hype it up but soon collapses under its own weight.
Indeed, though his broader point - made in the aftermath of Spotify / Apple announcing higher quality streams - in the video is that neither are really serious about it, and that neither announcement were game changers for higher res.
The difficulty of listening to hi res Apple Music on iOS devices, they wont fix precisely because they dont believe most iOS users care enough.
I cant get too worked up about the imperfections though - if one is really bothered by hi res, which is largely a home listening issue, then you can pretty much assemble the required chain of hardware to do whatever you want at home. And assuming most in that (niche hi res camp) have not cheap systems, that shouldn't be too much of an issue. We are talking about a niche after all.
This. Exactly the message that Darko was attempting to communicate.
That aside, I really enjoy John Darko's website and YouTube videos/channel. He brings a refreshing change to audio gear reviews in a real world way. He is always up front with pros and cons of the audio gear he talks about or reviews, IMHO. I have learned much more from him regarding new audio technologies any of the 'high-end' mags. I like his humor and that he is not afraid to laugh at himself and old audio slang. Fun and informative stuff.