ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Just back from new car launch at donington park,and had a chat with some gents about B&o,who were discussing build quality of products in general.They were on about products being built in china compared with struer,is a wrong move.
I understand this has been discussed before in another thread,but why is it MADE IN CHINA is renowed for mass produced poor quality.
Look at the fakes they produce and the cheap cars,they dont know about quality and a eye for detail like the danes.
I know a lot of the big manufactures have factories ie sweat shops there,and have workers working night and day in poor conditions,so large margins can be made,but can B&o really be proud of a product that is built in china,than their native country,and can we have the confidence of the build quality and longevity of the product,when its not overseen in struer?
I have to admit I feel confident when I buy a product and it is hand assembled in a factory in struer,than mass produced by the chinese,who know nothing of quality.
I understand its to do with money and margins,but I would rather pay a premium,for something that has been built to last.B&o roots are danish design,danish built,
I think the whole BeoPlay range is not made in Struer and I remember reading that the headphones are made in China somewhere?
I think in the future though there will be more local manufacturing. China just invested $250billion in higher education so I don't think the population would want to work for minimum wage later when they graduate. Also, with the European and American economy tanking I think their respective governments will be eventually forcing local companies to produce locally. That's already happening to Apple and I know of a few manufacturers are moving their manufacturing operations back to their countries.
And I like the idea of a country producing their "own" goods/crafts. Makes the items more unique or cultural in a way.
And have you heard of 3D printers and nanobots? One day we might be all be "producing" our own goods at the comfort of our homes!!!!!
Regarding China not knowing about quality.... Yes and no... I am Chinese not from China but Chinese nonetheless and I can say we are largely very materialistic. And there are Artisans in China that make couture and fine jewelry. I mean China is practically new in terms of mass production so it takes time to train the workforce
Blame the corporate and competitive culture for profit maximization for the way things are build nowadays. I think most of the European luxury items are made in less well to do European countries like Czech or Croatia or Romania.
But aren't you excited that one day the whole world might have equal wages and currencies and hopefully rights?!
Equal but different I hope not equal and homogenized like one of those sic-fi horror movies.
I think being build in Denmark is good. But with our (I'm Danish) high wages, it's simply not feasible for most products.
With that said, I feel they could have made a better choice than China. If for nothing else, then for political reasons and to not support the appalling work conditions over there. They could have moved it to, say, Lihuania, Latvia or something, even if that wouldn't grant the same sort of profit margins.
Edit: As for each country producing their "own stuff". Good luck with that. It would mean higher prices and sub par products. Denmark has a little under 6 million people all-up, we live on 43,000 square kilometers of land (16,600 square miles), with no natural sources (bar a litte oil in the North Sea). Without import/export we'd be back to plundering and pillaging Europe in wooden boats (we don't even have much wood left).
Unless you're so detached from reality that you think that China can do everything by itself, that Russia can do everything by itself, import and export of minds and products are much better than the opposite. In fact, the Soviet Union tried it, and so did China. The Soviet Union collapsed, and China has had to start playing ball on the international market. Without export of products to the rest fo the world, China would have collapsed decades ago.
I don't know why I explain this to you. It's like water off a goose.
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
Chris Townsend:My favourite examples of shoddy Chinese engineering are probably their near endless supply of new stealth fighters, and then their is of course their space program. All made from rice and chop sticks the lot of it..
All made from rice and chop sticks the lot of it..
Yeah never liked weapons of mass destruction. It's excessive paranoia in works. If only all those resources are spent on enriching the quality of our lives instead.
Regarding the space program.... It is proving to be quite successful from what I heard.
And guys.... I believe we should be aspiring to be citizens of the world or if not the Cosmos. No wonder aliens are not willing to make upfront contact of late....
Unless you are not made from the same very materials that made the "The Chinese" I suppose you better accept them as a part of your very own existence. Like what Oprah mentioned in one of her articles " having allowance for others to make mistakes is having the allowance to make your own".
@wonderfullelectric "I think the whole BeoPlay range is not made in Struer"
The BeoPlay V1 is build in Struer on component prebuild in Paderborn/Germany.
B&O has manufacturing facilities located in the Czech Republic - which isn't in China
Greetings Millemissen
There is a tv - and there is a BV
wonderfulelectric:And guys.... I believe we should be aspiring to be citizens of the world or if not the Cosmos. No wonder aliens are not willing to make upfront contact of late....
Really? Any attempt for you to go towards the door marked "reality"?
wonderfulelectric:Unless you are not made from the same very materials that made the "The Chinese" I suppose you better accept them as a part of your very own existence.
What a load of bollocks. We can criticise China for exploiting the workers, for ignoring basic human rights and so on, exactly because we don't live there.
wonderfulelectric:Like what Oprah mentioned in one of her articles " having allowance for others to make mistakes is having the allowance to make your own".
Excellent - quoting Oprah as an authority on anything. A person who advocates mind over matter, that you can influence the universe by mere thought, that water has memory and other superstitious nonsense. What a great person to quote. Next you'll use Mother Theresa as an example of integrity.
LOL! Yeah, like those shoddy Apple iPads, iPhones, and iPads, total crap! I've got friends who work in the consumer electronics biz, what you get out of China depends on what you want and are willing to pay for and work for, as in making sure the specs and production processes and QC are adequate. You can get total garbage or high end stuff, depending. So making things there isn't necessarily bad. When he first got started sourcing raw drivers there, the firm they were working with didn't understand why instead of getting more girls to spin glue onto coil formers and spiders by hand to up production rate was an inferior solution to getting a machine. After working with them and getting them to understand the manual by hand approach resulted in a ton of rejects due to not meeting spec they caught the drift as to why the machine was a good investment, and now he'd put their drivers up against about anyones.
Military hardware is a bit different, it's hard to evaluate whether the Chinese stuff is any good unless you see it closely and/or see the results of combat against other modern equipment, and can factor out training differences. Certainly we in the West saw plenty of Soviet stuff that made us collectively crap our pants until we saw more of how it actually fared in combat and saw how it was really made. The MIG 25 was billed and feared as a Mach 3+ aircraft until later when it was found out that the only two that ever exceeded that speed destroyed their engines and almost killed their pilots, while aircraft like the SR71 could cruise at over Mach 3 for hours at a time.
As for labor laws, one comment I read was about labor laws somewhere else, but the politically correct crowd was complaining about the working conditions and pay for the young women and girls who worked in the garment factories, not noticing that people lined up to work there as it was better than anywhere else. He said yeah, let's go ahead and force the plant to close, that way they can all get high paying jobs in child prostitution and chattel slavery. That's the ticket.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Oh, if people line up in a country where there's a huge disparity between the poor, middle class and rich, and the other option (as you put it) is "child prostitution and chattel slavery", there obviously can't be any problems with work conditions, salaries, or even basic human rights.
Perhaps you should look at it from less of a first world perspective. Nice attempt at self righteous santimony though!
Jeff: Perhaps you should look at it from less of a first world perspective. Nice attempt at self righteous santimony though!
Perhaps it's best to look at if from a first world perspective, when it's first world companies having products manufactured there for first world consumers. Nice attempt at hiding your head in the sand.
Electrified: wonderfulelectric:And guys.... I believe we should be aspiring to be citizens of the world or if not the Cosmos. No wonder aliens are not willing to make upfront contact of late.... Really? Any attempt for you to go towards the door marked "reality"? wonderfulelectric:Unless you are not made from the same very materials that made the "The Chinese" I suppose you better accept them as a part of your very own existence. What a load of bollocks. We can criticise China for exploiting the workers, for ignoring basic human rights and so on, exactly because we don't live there. wonderfulelectric:Like what Oprah mentioned in one of her articles " having allowance for others to make mistakes is having the allowance to make your own". Excellent - quoting Oprah as an authority on anything. A person who advocates mind over matter, that you can influence the universe by mere thought, that water has memory and other superstitious nonsense. What a great person to quote. Next you'll use Mother Theresa as an example of integrity.
Matter is as much the production of the mind as mind is as much the production of matter.
Not quoting Oprah or anyone this time.... Make a dif now?
I just felt what Oprah said really resonated with me. I simply liked to share.
wonderfulelectric: Matter is as much the production of the mind as mind is as much the production of matter. Not quoting Oprah or anyone this time.... Make a dif now?
Nope, still utter bollocks that has no relationship to reality.
wonderfulelectric:I just felt what Oprah said really resonated with me. I simply liked to share.
Of course you felt that, otherwise you wouldn't have quoted it. It's still telling you use her as a reference with all the superstition she peddles.
Oh never mind then. I second you are might not be a follower of science or simply someone who is..... oh I don't know what you are.
Ask yourself what is Reality? What is the mind? What is the matter? Anyway we are off topic again.
wonderfulelectric:Oh never mind then. I second you are might not be a follower of science or simply someone who is..... oh I don't know what you are
I'm a journalist by trade (got into audio production through that), and I very much follow science. Actual science, not pseudo science. If you can control matter with your mind, there's a million dollars for you from the Randi Foundation.
wonderfulelectric:Ask yourself what is Reality? What is the mind? What is the matter? Anyway we are off topic again.
LOL, again with the unfounded claims. Let me repeat: You can make a million dollars if you can control matter with your mind. Easily, in fact. And that would be peanuts, compared to what you could earn on the side by helping out, removing diseases and whatnot.
What's that? You don't "need" that kind of money, I hear you say. Well, give it to charity. I await to see your name in papers across the world as the person who turned physics upside down and won a nobel prize for it.
In other words: Ask yourself why you believe that sort of superstition, why you think there's a global conspiracy since BRM drivers haven't spread to all manufacturers of speakers, and why you believe that you can tell a difference between signal and speaker cables (given that they're not too thin a gauge, obviosly), and other such nonsense.
I can't help but laugh at you claiming you have science on your side, when everyone with just the slightest knowledge will know that you're wrong. And no, quantum mechanics doesn't support your position either. It's one of those things that the superstitions sales people are using to sell their products, because it sounds scientific, and they all fall down, having not understood the first bit of quantum mechanics, but pretend it supports their claims. Yes, I say this preemptively, because in the other thread you mentioned quantum mechanics, apparently not understanding what it is.
Electrified: Jeff: Perhaps you should look at it from less of a first world perspective. Nice attempt at self righteous santimony though! Perhaps it's best to look at if from a first world perspective, when it's first world companies having products manufactured there for first world consumers. Nice attempt at hiding your head in the sand.
The problem being that too many first world dilettantes look at things from their narrow perspective, with little understanding of the issues beyond that, and wind up hurting the very people they ostensibly claim to care about. Just about universally they do serious damage to the very poor and disadvantaged, then wander off patting themselves on the back about how much they care. Perhaps I am judging you wrongly in this respect, and if so I am sorry to have painted you with that brush, but I am sick to my very teeth of this aspect of the modern world. The world has too many idiots who think they know best how other people should live their lives, by and large the world doesn't want to be saved, it wants to be left alone.
As for our friend here, you may only be a journalist/writer, but this physicist/engineer agrees completely with you, the word bollocks is apt.
Electrified:I'm a journalist by trade (got into audio production through that), and I very much follow science. Actual science, not pseudo science. If you can control matter with your mind, there's a million dollars for you from the Randi Foundation.
I repeat mind is as much a product of matter as matter is the product of the mind. Read the issue of Scientific American that was exploring the limits of our consciousness? Well when you are typing isn't your mind telling the matter ( your hand) to type and after subsequent typing your react to the matter/ the outcome ( your words) and then that process continues? Hello....
One cannot exist without another.
Journalist by trade... Which magazine or paper? Since you wanted to use your so called expertise to dish things out at me why don't you go all the way and name your title and Name in the company or added credibility. Why even so serious it's just a forum. Jeeze...
Superstition... Did i mention about rituals? lol You make me sound like some witch or wizard or troll. Actually those are the things I totally not mind being.
And how do you jump from our topic to BMR? Well it has just been released for a relatively few short years and Naim, Roksan, Cambridge Audio, QSB, Accolade Audio, CEAD, Marantz etc..... all jumped on board. Naim have already put the BMR drivers in the their Bentley systems... I don't think those manufacturers above are very small either except for QSB, Accolade audio and CEAD that is. It is now OEM only unfortunately. ( Never heard of BRM btw please enlighten me as to what driver technology it is?) I suppose journalists are not so casual about spelling errors?
LAT is where my conspiracy theory lies.... I am just as so curious why to why it caused such a sensation to the whole audio and science community and disappeared just as quickly. LAT was a major venture by Tymphany... The very company that now owns Scan Speak and Peerless. And in case you don't already know B&O buys a ton of drivers from them. You think a company like Tymphany would launch something so major and then put it in hibernation for no reason? Besides the subwoofer mechanism is modeled after the Heil driver so how bad could it be? Dual motors in push push configuration? Sounds like a lot of recent subwoofers doesn't it?
Have no idea what's with the harsh tone. Do you have like an anger issue?
Science is the study of natural law. And nothing we know of function without it. It is very much a work in progress study but I don't think I can say it is on my side or on anybody's side in particular. There is science behind why you might be reacting this way to almost every of my posts. Let's study that.
So I am currently unemployed or self-employed. But what is your excuse for being such an earnest poster?
butch1: I understand this has been discussed before in another thread,but why is it MADE IN CHINA is renowed for mass produced poor quality.
Yeah, because those state-of-the-art market-leading Retina MacBook Pro's are made by Danes in a factory outside Copenhagen, you know?
It's amazing how naive some people are in this world.
Removed response. Find it in this thread instead:
http://archivedforum2.beoworld.org/forums/t/4493.aspx
Jeff:he problem being that too many first world dilettantes look at things from their narrow perspective, with little understanding of the issues beyond that, and wind up hurting the very people they ostensibly claim to care about. Just about universally they do serious damage to the very poor and disadvantaged, then wander off patting themselves on the back about how much they care. Perhaps I am judging you wrongly in this respect, and if so I am sorry to have painted you with that brush, but I am sick to my very teeth of this aspect of the modern world. The world has too many idiots who think they know best how other people should live their lives, by and large the world doesn't want to be saved, it wants to be left alone.
I think you may have painted me a bit wrong (soundsawkward this way), and I agree that most people seem to do things for their own good, rather than what is actually needed, and sometimes contrary to what one would think was the good thing to do.
Jeff:As for our friend here, you may only be a journalist/writer, but this physicist/engineer agrees completely with you, the word bollocks is apt.
Thank you, Jeff, that's great to hear from an actual scientist
Just breezing through the forum after en extended absence and I have a very bad case of deja vu reading this particular thread. In fact, were it not for the lack of reference to red herrings or ad hominems I could swear that things were exactly as I had left them - almost preserved in aspic - in 2011.
I say almost because half of the characters that used to make a contribution to threads about B&O products seem to have disappeared...
Where has everyone gone?
j0hnbarker:ust breezing through the forum after en extended absence and I have a very bad case of deja vu reading this particular thread. In fact, were it not for the lack of reference to red herrings or ad hominems I could swear that things were exactly as I had left them - almost preserved in aspic - in 2011.
So what? I counter nonsense where I see it, regardless of who spews it. Sometimes the person uses red herrings, sometimes ad hominems (which isn't the same as an insult), sometimes, they're intellectually dishonest, sometimes, they're just full of sh.., but I'm amazed you remember that in so much detail. It must really have hurt your feelings.
Electrified: j0hnbarker:ust breezing through the forum after en extended absence and I have a very bad case of deja vu reading this particular thread. In fact, were it not for the lack of reference to red herrings or ad hominems I could swear that things were exactly as I had left them - almost preserved in aspic - in 2011. So what? I counter nonsense where I see it, regardless of who spews it. Sometimes the person uses red herrings, sometimes ad hominems (which isn't the same as an insult), sometimes, they're intellectually dishonest, sometimes, they're just full of sh.., but I'm amazed you remember that in so much detail. It must really have hurt your feelings.
No dear, any engagement we had didn't leave that much of an impression. I was just surprised to see you still here on a forum dedicated to B&O products, not discussing B&O products as usual and instead being wound up by someone just like yourself! The irony was a pleasant one.
Anyway, as you were ;)
And yet you remembered it in detail, exactly what I called you out on. That's impressive.
As for discussing B&O products, I actually have discussed that. With WonderfulElectric even. As for being wound up by "someone like [myself]", the irony is misplaced, considering I don't buy into snake oil, nor rely on delusions to inform me (as WonElec). ]Our little exchange really must have hurt you since you now resort to equivocating two very different personalities.
Electrified: And yet you remembered it in detail, exactly what I called you out on. That's impressive. As for discussing B&O products, I actually have discussed that. With WonderfulElectric even. As for being wound up by "someone like [myself]", the irony is misplaced, considering I don't buy into snake oil, nor rely on delusions to inform me (as WonElec). ]Our little exchange really must have hurt you since you now resort to equivocating two very different personalities.
Looking at my post, there is no detail in my recollection. I have an excellent memory and that is certainly not something I am going to apologise for, but in this case I am afraid I have no strong memories of any previous interaction we may have had here. Some vague recollections, yes, but certainly nothing concrete.
Perhaps you are confused and you are the one who was hurt? I'm sorry if that is the case my friend. Please carry on as you were.
j0hnbarker: ooking at my post, there is no detail in my recollection. I have an excellent memory and that is certainly not something I am going to apologise for, but in this case I am afraid I have no strong memories of any previous interaction we may have had here. Some vague recollections, yes, but certainly nothing concrete. Perhaps you are confused and you are the one who was hurt? I'm sorry if that is the case my friend. Please carry on as you were.
ooking at my post, there is no detail in my recollection. I have an excellent memory and that is certainly not something I am going to apologise for, but in this case I am afraid I have no strong memories of any previous interaction we may have had here. Some vague recollections, yes, but certainly nothing concrete.
Ah, yes, I'm the confused one, having to resort to equivocating different personalities. The more I talk to you, the more I remember of the discussion and how you were simultaneously attempting to chastise me for replying to your nonsense, while accusing me of trolling.
You had enough of a detailed memory to remember I called you out when you used ad hominems, that I called you out on red herrings and even that it was 2011.
It's funny how WonElec's responses at least has some contents, whereas yours is mostly you crying foul, deny what you said in the post just above it and so on. As such, I will not be trolled by you. You're simply not worth it.
......meanwhile, in China, they continue to make stuff to a standard that we are meant to be discussing!
Ban boring signatures!
Don't worry, I'm done.
Electrified: Don't worry, I'm done.
And breathe....
I know its a shame,I wondered why they keep falling apart.
butch1: >> Yeah, because those state-of-the-art market-leading Retina MacBook Pro's are made by Danes in a factory outside Copenhagen, you know? I know its a shame,I wondered why they keep falling apart.
>> Yeah, because those state-of-the-art market-leading Retina MacBook Pro's are made by Danes in a factory outside Copenhagen, you know?
I own and have owned a hell of a lot of B&O kit, a range of swiss made Panerai watches and drive a BMW. I also own a Retina MBP.
The B&O kit is inconsistent at best (BV7s faulty, BeoSound 3 replaced, BeoCom 5's faulty, BS5/BM5 crashing etc). The watches require servicing and three have stopped and were returned for repair. The BMW was recalled, twice and German cars are regularly below Japanese and Korean for reliability.
The Retina MBP works like a dream, can't fault the hardware manufacturing at all.
This whole "China is rubbish" debate is actually much more to do with xenophobic and fascist attitudes to self-preservation than anything to do with the actual quality of manufacturing, which is a prime reason why Tim Cook is keeping his local market happy by saying he might move some manufacturing back to the USA. It's far more PR than real practice.
Why dont you buy a chinese made watch instead of swiss made?.Would you buy panerai,if it had made in china stamped on it?,and why a german made car instead of a korean.
You like the badges to moxxey and that, you have a swiss watch and german car,and danish tv.Each country is renowed for certain things.
Germany -cars
Switzerland-watches
Italy-furniture/fashion
Denmark-B&o and lego
China-Fakes and Kung-fu.
I too,own and have had a hell of a lot of B&o also,with not one problem,Have a large selection of swiss watches with no problems,have german cars with no problems,but my apple products have all had problems and have been replaced,granted the macbook is fantastic,but my old sony vaio lasted longer without a problem.
Mercedes moved production to africa in the past to cut costs,and look what happened there,its took years to recover.Moving production to another country is not always the best thing to do for a brands reputation.
Gucci made in china would not sell aswell,as made in italy.