ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
I have a Beomaster 3000 series amplifier which was rebuilt using B&O sourced NOS 35 year old capacitors and the trimmers cleaned, not replaced. This information has been posted previously, however since I recently decided on a caprice to give the amp one more “chance” after taking it out of service I now have a question, and for the convenience of anyone not having read the original post I am providing what I see as necessary background information.
Upon arrival this Beomaster did not truly impress, and within days developed a very annoying upper range response and virtually no bass.
Initially I explored if I had a speaker or speaker wire issue, but the problem was the amplifier.
I then moved the amplifier to a room with less demanding speakers and different speaker wires but the issues worsened.
There was absolutely no bass, the volume would unexpectedly drop and later recover, and finally the amplifier began giving off the most offensive odor of burning electronics.
As a result I unplugged this amplifier and let it sit unused for a couple of weeks.
I was genuinely surprised when I plugged the amp in, turned it on and instead of no bass, there was an over-abundance of bass, the upper end was still not quite right but acceptable, and MOST IMPORTANTLY the awful burning odor had ceased.
I have been using this amp regularly for several weeks and can report that it has stabilized in that it performs with each use in a similar fashion.
My view is there is little difference in operating an amplifier with 35 year old replacement parts as compared to my all-original Beomaster 2400 which has components of a similar age. The only difference that I can see is the 2400 is probably operating reasonable close to specs in spite of its age whereas the rebuilt amp is not.
So my question is am I correct in this thinking and I am safe to operate this amp so long as it continues to remain stable and does not start burning again, or is there more to this than I comprehend?
Jeff
Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century, S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase, B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder
To me it sounds like you will be perfectly safe using this Beomaster so long as you keepone finger ready on the power switch at all times.
Who would want to fit 35 year old (NOS) caps ? (Let alone source them ???)Experience has it that caps dry out regardless of them sitting inside a Beomaster or rattling around in a drawer.Faster in hot environments, yes, but still...
Who would want to clean trimmers rather than replace them ?Experience has it that the trimmers worst enemy is oxidation. Oxidation attacks the surface of the metalsand weakens the metal. It's not uncommon to see parts of trimmers deformed or even broken clean off due tooxidation and metal fatigue. Cleaning would take a lot of time and gentle handling to prevent the delicateand brittle remains from breaking.
I don't understand it.
Martin
Don't use it!
At minimum you sholud replace all electrolytics and the trimmers.
Continued use will end up in a unit with more costly and difficult restauration needs.
//Bo.A long list...
Bos00: Don't use it!
I have to agree.
Not much work methinks, so just replace everything that's dubious!
NOS capacitors, really?
Jacques
Hi Martin,
Misguided pretty much covers things…. and your inability to comprehend is completely understandable. The whole thing was/is unfortunate.
I am both pleased and relieved that you feel I am safe to use this amplifier.
To me, as stated in my initial post, I see little or no difference between old parts being original and untouched, as in my Beomaster 2400, or replacement old parts. Neither are going to last a whole lot longer as these parts, replaced or original are drying out, as you stated.
I do take very good care to monitor the temperature of the heat shield and that is not a problem…. not yet anyway.
Thanks for your input….. and wisdom.
chartz: Bos00: Don't use it! I have to agree. Not much work methinks, so just replace everything that's dubious! NOS capacitors, really?
Yep, I get a headache every time I think about it.
Not convinced Martin is saying it is safe!! I think it is unlikely to actually be dangerous but very likely to stop working any minute with likely damage to more components. You are not very lucky with your repairers!
Peter
Hello Peter,
Always good to hear from you.
I would like to add that in a much earlier discussion you said something to the effect that amplifiers are neutral; that perceived differences are more related to speakers. My experiences over the last six months have proven you right…. the differences that I noticed originated with various failing components giving my different amplifiers “character,” or as the British would say, patina.
That this amplifier could just suddenly stop working is neither in question nor would it come as a surprise.
I have two amplifiers of about the same vintage and the difference between the two is the BM 2400 while all-original has always been thoroughly stable with absolutely consistent performance, whereas the other has been anything but consistent.
The wild tone swings, the drops in volume, the sheer personality changes were intimidating to experience. Then all of a sudden the amp stabilized. I have a need for it in its present location so it is nice that it functions for now. With the past history and instability I am guessing this is why you feel there is more risk in using this amp or are you saying that using either is risky?
I hope that is not the case.
Backtracking once again, you had previously spoken glowingly about the S45 speaker. I preferred the S75 speaker until I raised the S-45 speakers off the carpet, now the Beomaster 2400/S45 combo produces remarkable sound. (Once again you were absolutely right; the S-45 speaker is stunningly accurate.)
You concluded with, “You are not very lucky with repairers.” Now there is an understatement for the ages! However I have had wonderful “luck” with repairs, parts, and help here at BeoWorld.
I said:".. you will be perfectly safe using this Beomaster so long as you keepone finger ready on the power switch at all times."- In other words. Be ready to switch the thing off at any given time because it will sooner or later fail.
How stabile do you think, it is yourself ?Well, it had you worried enough to start this thread.The symptoms, you describe, is those of dead trimmers. They may be shiny and clean but theyare old and their contact tension is no longer what it was. No slider contact means full idle - and youcan't hear anything until the sirens.It's just waiting for you to turn your back on it.
Get it fixed by someone who doesn't fit NOS capacitors and clean trimmers and do it BEFOREthe set calls for service using smokesignals.
To me Martin's advice and irony were crystal-clear. Don't use it.
chartz:To me Martin's advice and irony were crystal-clear. Don't use it
We have had this discussion before Jeff, I and other members told you not to use it, and get it serviced before more goes bad.
Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.
Piaf: chartz: Bos00: Don't use it! I have to agree. Not much work methinks, so just replace everything that's dubious! NOS capacitors, really? NOS capacitors, really? Yep, I get a headache every time I think about it.
Jeff, I feel the need to remind you that you had every chance to buy a 4400 that had already had capacitors/trimmers plus other items repalaced and was working perfectly.
You turned it down in favour of some "trustworthy" North American con artist who, we now learn, had used NOS capacitors and had "cleaned" the trimmers rather than replaced them.
It would be interesting to know exactly where these capcitors were purchased and hear just why you would clean 30+ year old trimmers, rather than replace such low cost items.
The mind truly boggles!
Regards Graham
Piaf, I hope your house insurance company are not on Beoworld.
While your BM may not go on fire you are compounding the damage by using it.
Well I wanted a definitive answer and you guys have made yourselves crystal clear, for which I sincerely thank you. This is what I needed to hear... perhaps not what I was hoping to hear, but definitely what was called for. I will follow your advice.
Søren pointed out that we had had this discussion previously and the decision at that time was not to use the BM 4400. True enough, but for reasons that would defy understanding, as mentioned in the beginning of this thread, I just flat out wanted to see where I was for my seven hundred dollar investment.
Further I stopped using it (beyond the good advice) because the sound quality was not pleasant AND it was giving off this ungodly burning odor.
When I turned it on I was dumbfounded by the change in sound quality…. it came as a complete surprise. So I started using it again because I have a use for it.
Martin asked how stable I feel it is? While it is abundantly clear that I am at best a tinkering enthusiast NOT a technician, I certainly am able to assess accurately the stability of this amplifier.
In answer to Martin’s question, the amp is currently very stable.
Exceptions? Yes, 1 out of 10 plays the volume may vary slightly mid-play, and at about the same rate on occasion the amp is able deliver higher volume than usual, although I have not pressed it hard enough to get the overload light to illuminate.
Martin also said that I was “worried enough about it to start this thread.” Quite so because even someone as unsophisticated as I am with electronics knows that something very odd happened here, a terrible sounding amp transforms itself into a decent sounding one. Clearly these ridiculous NOS capacitors are failing, yet it is working.
The point that really drove the message home was Martin pointing out “I said so long as you keep one finger ready on the power switch at all times.” One sentence and it paints a graphic picture!
I rather fear that some might feel that I am either pig-headed or just plain stubborn. However the truth is I paid good money for this amp and I was both hurt and angry. When I plugged it back in the changed sound seduced me into thinking well maybe it has stabilized and I can get some use out of it after all. That said, I remembered all the personality changes and the burning odor, so picturing this amp bursting into flames was not hard to do. So I started a new thread and asked your opinion.
The bottom line here is simple, as Martin and Søren said, don’t use it until I can get it repaired properly with NEW capacitors and NEW trimmers.
I hate having a useless amp, but think how I would feel if it really did burst into flames….. not just a burnt amp but damage to my house.
Thanks guys! I really did get the message I needed.
valve1: Piaf, I hope your house insurance company are not on Beoworld. While your BM may not go on fire you are compounding the damage by using it.
BMs like Jeff's, should have a fire extinguisher attached
joeyboygolf: Piaf: chartz: Bos00: Don't use it! I have to agree. Not much work methinks, so just replace everything that's dubious! NOS capacitors, really? NOS capacitors, really? Yep, I get a headache every time I think about it. Jeff, I feel the need to remind you that you had every chance to buy a 4400 that had already had capacitors/trimmers plus other items repalaced and was working perfectly. You turned it down in favour of some "trustworthy" North American con artist who, we now learn, had used NOS capacitors and had "cleaned" the trimmers rather than replaced them. It would be interesting to know exactly where these capcitors were purchased and hear just why you would clean 30+ year old trimmers, rather than replace such low cost items. The mind truly boggles!
Graham,
I am painfully aware that I passed on a good amp for a bad one.
I did this because I had already committed myself to buying the one I did. My father always said, “Your word is your bond,” and it is what I live by.
What can I tell you? I am an honest guy to a fault, a real boy scout, in a world that doesn’t always value this particular quality.
In this particular case I paid a price for my integrity and I am not speaking of money, this protracted discussion is public humiliation for me…. I feel like such an idiot.
Getting some use out of this amp mitigated my embarrassment, but it was an ill-conceived remedy.
Since I can’t use it, there is nothing to say I can’t “detail” it, so here is a photo of my Beomaster 4400 in all its glory. And yes I turned it on to take this picture, but that only took 30 seconds….
I Like the rosewood finish. Like you, if I had given my word, I would have bought it. There are some of us where we try to be completely honest and treat everyone as we would be dealt with. This means we get done by the unscrupulous but it also means that I sleep easy in my bed knowing I have not done anyone down. In my case it is a family failing - my grandfather pictured in my avatar took honesty and fairness to the nth degree.
We apparently have a several things in common, the appreciation for rosewood and living by your word.
Yes this opens us up for mistreatment by unscrupulous people, but like you, I sleep well at night knowing with me what you see is what you get.
I have made major purchases without a deposit, because if I say I will do something, I am going to do it.
We also share family failings, in my case unspeakable deception, but we are only responsible for ourselves, what others do is their responsibility.
As for this 4400, it took several determined cleanings to get it looking the way it does, both inside and out, but I am pleased with the cosmetic results. The photos are overly critical, whereas there are a few blemishes; the vast majority of them came off with a bit of TLC.
The initial disappointing performance of my newly acquired 4400 and its settling-in process was disconcerting to say the least, with sticky switches, and all those radical “personality” changes. However it was the burning components that prompted this posting.
The burning has stopped, as stated, and the personality changes have ended. Still I wondered if I was playing with fire, NO pun intended. Martin made clear that I was so I have basically stopped my regular use of this amp and purchased a large “ABC” fire extinguisher just in case.