Confused on mmc1-4 cart differences even more confused after talking to soundsmith

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RAJOD Posted: Thu, Aug 14 2014 7:52 PM

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I've read quite a bit on these cartridges over the past few months.   And what I have read was...

The mmc1-4 are all pretty much the same headshell they only differ in the cantilever and stylus type.

Someone said a mmc4 could be upgraded by a german company to be like a mmc2 say.

Also read from many people that the soundsmiths were more forward and CD like.  They do not sound exactly like the original B&Os.   This caused me to shy away from a new soundmith and collect mmc carts for back ups and retipping.

Soundsmith told me that is all false, that the internals of the mmc2 is different from a mmc3 or mmc4.   That they would not sound the same if I upgraded a mmc4 to a ruby  cant. found on a mmc2.  That they should know best since they make them.

Not sure what to believe now.  Anyone want to take a shot at clearing this up for me?

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sonavor replied on Thu, Aug 14 2014 8:27 PM

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I would think SoundSmith should know. I bought one SoundSmith SMMC2 equivalent for a friend and listened to it briefly...so I can't really say anything about a noticeable difference (with my ears). I'm sure there are people that can tell a difference or think they can. For this type of thing, I think you can only really perform your own testing.  If you send in a cartridge to be upgraded from an MMC4 to an MMC2, then mark it so you can easily identify it, then compare it to a new SoundSmith cartridge. Obviously, experiments like this will run up a nice bill :(

It's similar to speaker cross-over recapping. You can spend more than the cost of the speakers on replacement capacitors for the cross-over if you like. Does it make a difference?  Some say yes, some say no.

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RAJOD replied on Thu, Aug 14 2014 8:35 PM

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Hehe well I did that speaker recap on my old KG4s.   I can hear no difference between the old crossover and the new improved one.  I had read there is no way 20+ year old caps could be good.  Now I am not so sure.

I can hear a difference between my mmc3 and 4.  Its not a WOW but the 2 is smoother on S sounds or less raspy.    I really do not have a brand new mmc to use a reference.

I think I'll spend more money (you can't take it with ya when ya die) and get a sound smith mmc1 or mmc2.  Not sure one which.

Then I'll get one my my mmc2s or 3s redone and compare.   If you like I can post the results here and maybe confuse others too.   Or maybe save some money for others.    I can be the Guinna pig.

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Søren Mexico replied on Thu, Aug 14 2014 8:43 PM

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I have here a SMMC4 bought new from Soundsmith, 3 x MMC4 retipped from Axel, 1 original MMC4, and 1 MMC2 retipped from Axel. Comparing the original MMC4 to Axels I hear no difference, comparing the SMMC4 to original, the SMMC is a little brighter. Comparing the retipped MMC2 to any, a lot more detail on any record played. I use the MMC2 for only new or like new records, and the MMC4s for older and worn records.

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Dillen replied on Thu, Aug 14 2014 10:45 PM

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RAJOD:

Soundsmith told me that is all false, that the internals of the mmc2 is different from a mmc3 or mmc4.   That they would not sound the same if I upgraded a mmc4 to a ruby  cant. found on a mmc2.  That they should know best since they make them. 

They should know, I agree.
But apparently, they don't.

Martin

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MediaBobNY replied on Fri, Aug 15 2014 4:35 AM

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Or, more likely he knows but is a biased source - he'd prefer to sell his SMMC-2's rather than have people use Axel to upgrade their MMC-4's.

And I've heard from him (Peter) that his MMC suspension repair service doesn't 'butcher' the cartridge at all.  'Wonder how he does it.

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Søren Mexico replied on Fri, Aug 15 2014 5:07 AM

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MediaBobNY:

Or, more likely he knows but is a biased source - he'd prefer to sell his SMMC-2's rather than have people use Axel to upgrade their MMC-4's.

And I've heard from him (Peter) that his MMC suspension repair service doesn't 'butcher' the cartridge at all.  'Wonder how he does it.

Just to make my point, put on Hotel California, the Eagels; High note in single guitar clearer, cymbals in left channel clearer and hearable, the bass is distinct, this on MMC2 from Axel, the MMC4 and SMMC4 does a good job, but will never show the very high cymbals and very highs from the single guitar , the bass comes out a little "muffled" not as clear as with the MMC2, I think the channel separation is better with the MMC2 from Axel, but my hearing is not optimal ( 64 years old) and I am not audiophile, but I like it as good as I can get it. I would like to get some input from younger members, like Soren Hammer and Dennis

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RAJOD replied on Sat, Aug 16 2014 3:15 PM

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I know the mmc2 is better than a mmc4 or even a 3.   I am interested in a smmc2 vs a B&O mmc2 or a mmc3/4 that has been upgrade to be like a mmc2.

smmc4 is not going to hang with a mmc2 or a smmc2.    That comparison is not what I am after.

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sonavor replied on Sat, Aug 16 2014 3:42 PM

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For me, I am still waiting on the SoundSmith suspension repair on an MMC1.  They said to allow 10-12 weeks for the repair.  That statement from them came when they received the cartridge on May 21st.  A little over twelve weeks have past now and I haven't received any status update on the repair.  I hope it isn't too much longer :(

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Peter replied on Sat, Aug 16 2014 4:30 PM

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I have been told that the internal structure of all the B&O MMC1-5 range is the same. The differences are in the cantilever and the diamond stylus. The SMMC range use different materials - more modern magnets - and they are hand made. I have a number of cartridges and, although my hearing is not what it was, the SMMC cartridges sound completely different to the B&O ones. I would not say better or worse, but different. The B&O cartridges have a much more laid back sound - very easy to listen to. I would suggest that they have a slight drop in the frequency response - not by much but enough to take some sharpness out. The SMMC cartridges sound as if they have a slight increase as the frequencies get higher. This gives a sense of increased detail but can be, to my ears, a little wearing after a while. The MMC6000 ( I realise this is not one of those cartridges under discussion!) was for many years my very favourite as this had a very detailed sound and was shown in tests to have a slight rise at about 15kHz but it never sounded wearing so there must be more to it than that! The lower specified cartridges seem to suffer more from slight sibilance and all the cartridges need to be tuned for tracking weight by ear - interestingly Axel's cartridges seem to require a slight increase in tracking weight compared to the originals. They do sound in my view just the same though.

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RAJOD replied on Sat, Aug 16 2014 6:47 PM

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Soundsmith probably dose a good job on mechanical items.   But... The web site is horrible to navigate and all the CAPITAL letters makes them look rinky dink.    Plus they don't really have people person answering the phone.  They seem to be on own time and damn anyone that wants otherwise.  

But probably better than a company with good PR department and poor workmanship.

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Dennis replied on Sat, Aug 16 2014 7:31 PM

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Søren Mexico:

I would like to get some input from younger members, like Soren Hammer and Dennis.

I don't think I have a functional MMC4 in stock at the time, but I certainly have a MMC1 and MMC2 I can try to compare. I will have a look into it.

Funny thing: I've never owned a MMC3, MMC5 or any of the cartridges from the older MMC range... But if all goes well, I will get my hands on a MMC5 plus some other interesting things tomorrow. I hope the MMC5 is working so I can compare it with the other ones.

/Dennis

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Ben_S replied on Sat, Aug 16 2014 7:43 PM

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I'm 22, should be in my peak listening age, but I struggle to tell the difference between my MMC2 and MMC4!

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RAJOD replied on Sat, Aug 16 2014 8:50 PM

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If they are old carts and never been re tipped they might sound closer to the same, just a guess.  I can tell my mmc3 from the mmc2.  They are both old too.   I'm going to get a new one to see how far out of spec they sound.  Maybe they just fine but they are 20+ years old.

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henrik replied on Sat, Aug 16 2014 9:41 PM

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When it comes to old original MMCs, I'd guess that the variations in sound quality caused by ageing of the materials in the carts are probably bigger than the original differences between the various models.

I have a bunch of MMC2s, 1s and 4s that I bought during the late 80s and 90s, most of them have only been used moderately ("serious" listening have mostly been done on a BG8000 with a selection of MMC20CLs and MMCx000s) and they are not worn (back then I used to replaced them when they got worn), but they have all been used every now and then during all these years.

Anyway, now that they are old they differ more in SQ than I remember them to do. Back in the 90s, my different MMC4s (for example) sounded quite similar to eachother, and the same can be said for my MMC2s. When comparing the 4s to the 2s, there were differences - the 4s being more bright and aggressive, while the 2s sounded smoother and a bit more refined. However, if I listen to them now, it's not easy for me to hear if I listen to a 4 or a 2/1 - the differences cause by the ageing are bigger than the "old" differences between the different models were. I guess that the suspension has aged differently in my different carts, and that causes them to sound different to eachother.

Ok, that was a lot of words but not much actually being said :) I just wanted to stress that old carts are OLD, don't spend money on old NOS and stuff like that - buy a cheap one and get it retipped, or go for an SMMC from Soundsmith. I haven't tried the SMMCs, but judging from what other have said, they have a more 'modern' voicing than the old models. If the retipped MMCs sound like the original ones, I'd guess a retipped MMC4 would be a good compromise - a bit more energetic ('modern'?) than the MMC1/2, but not as much as the SMMCs :)

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pfcs49 replied on Sun, Aug 17 2014 6:32 PM

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some random thoughts-

If SS MMC#s sound "hot" compared to originals, why did Stereophile pick the SMMC-1 as an "A" recommended component? It was ~$700 at the time and every other cartridge in that class was hugely more expensive. Why would they pick it if it wasn't very close to the best one could wish for?

When I purchased my "Voice" from SS, I brought my MMC1 and several MMC2s for inspection. All but one (MMC2) were pronounced healthy and not having much wear. Peter said that it looked like the MMC1 had the "early wire" suspension that lasts forever. Excepting that, I've never heard anything about such a variant. Anybody?

The purchase of the Voice (@$1800) was somewhat whimsical-that amount of cash fell into my hands and I wanted a new cartridge for my 8002 that was new and excellent. As I stated elsewhere, it sounds glorious-pretty much like all the others! Now, my ears have suffered a machine-shop environment and driving un-muffled race cars plus I'm 67yoa, so younger men might come to different conclusions, but I'd say that ~30 year old MMCs are pretty damn useful devices!