ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
This makes interesting reading:
http://www.techradar.com/news/home-cinema/home-theatre-audio/home-cinema-audio/audio/hi-fi-radio/hi-fi-boss-slams-rip-off-industry-162930
I have to say though that i feel no snobbery or pressure in a B&O store and having seen how long B&O gear lasts and being hand-made and the hours of R&D it is easy to see why it costs what it costs.
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Present: BL90, Core, BL6000, CD7000, Beogram 7000, Essence Remote.
Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4, Moment.
And B&O never took part in any 'tech-spec-race'.
They choose what is needed for how they want the products to perform.
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
I was always told never bad mouth the competition, your product should stand up on its own merits ..... looks like AVi's boss is disgruntled with sales numbers...
we tend to forget there is more to design than designing.
Millemissen: And B&O never took part in any 'tech-spec-race'. They choose what is needed for how they want the products to perform. MM
As evidenced by the fact that B&O has almost never advertised in the "hifi" magazines but in design and decorating magazines, like Dwell and Architectural Digest. It's a different philosophy that's for sure, and one that I've come to appreciate more and more over the years. I've seen, in my audio sales days, people pore over and obsess over specifications that have absolutely no relationship to sound quality, and in some cases are antithetical to it.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
As to the subject of ripoffs, a few years ago there was a huge kerfluffle when it was found that a $2000 Lexicon BluRay/DVD player was a rebadged $500 Oppo with only the case changed and a couple of components altered. Watching Lexicon/Harman try and rationalize that was amusing. $1500 for a couple of capacitors.
Jeff: As to the subject of ripoffs, a few years ago there was a huge kerfluffle when it was found that a $2000 Lexicon BluRay/DVD player was a rebadged $500 Oppo with only the case changed and a couple of components altered. Watching Lexicon/Harman try and rationalize that was amusing. $1500 for a couple of capacitors.
Or some years ago the UK Manufacturer whose amplifiers sent to magazines for review contained expensive components.
Having obtained rave reviews, the units on sale were subsequently found to contain cheap components.
And what about the trend some years ago for audio cables costing per metre several thousand Pounds Sterling which received rave reviews from the magazines.
Fascinating, I'd not heard of that component swap thing but sadly it doesn't surprise me.
I do remember a case where the insidious effect of the audio press actually lowered the quality of a product. A high end makers preamp used a wonderful design using high grade op amps for the output stage, wide band, low distortion, just a superior design. The "high end" magazines made snitty comments about it not being a discrete component design, so the follow up version had discrete circuitry that was inferior in performance to the op amp design, but got better reviews because of it.
The whole high end market is an amazing collection of prejudices, disinformation, and smoke and mirrors, with real design accomplishments scattered like nuggets in a stream. Takes a lot of panning to find them.
In other news, Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.
Getting back into the hifi world as of late after many years I am amazed by the nonsense. Of course my favourite are cables costing thousands of dollars, and reviewers speaking about great sound improvements by using a $500 USB cable. And just a few days ago I was looking for some floor stands for an amp, and discovered the $2000 stand - with claims of great improvements around vibration and harmonic distortion, sound stage, etc. A few weeks ago I tried a $1800 headphone and my 10 year old Sennheiser costing $400 sounded much better.
BV11-55, BS9000, BL1, BL19, Transmitter 1, Beo4, Beocom 6000, BeoTalk1 200, Sennheiser HD600, McIntosh MHA100
Jeff: Fascinating, I'd not heard of that component swap thing but sadly it doesn't surprise me. I do remember a case where the insidious effect of the audio press actually lowered the quality of a product. A high end makers preamp used a wonderful design using high grade op amps for the output stage, wide band, low distortion, just a superior design. The "high end" magazines made snitty comments about it not being a discrete component design, so the follow up version had discrete circuitry that was inferior in performance to the op amp design, but got better reviews because of it. The whole high end market is an amazing collection of prejudices, disinformation, and smoke and mirrors, with real design accomplishments scattered like nuggets in a stream. Takes a lot of panning to find them.
I still remember some years ago at a London Hi-Fi Show listening to an all American system in which the highly praised speakers alone were over £100,000.
I was sitting off centre at the back of the room and was unable to hear a stereo image.
After the demo the Importer confirmed that in order to hear a stereo image one had to sit dead centre in the front two rows.
A few weeks ago I tried a $1800 headphone and my 10 year old Sennheiser costing $400 sounded much better.
I hope you are not talking about Grado,because they are worth every penny!
No I tried Audeze LCD3 with a McIntosh MHA100 DAC/Amp. I ended up buying the McIntosh, and I think just saved $1800 as my HD600 sounds incredible.
BeoGreg:I remember the brand on my Beocord VX 7000 worth 10.000 francs - 1.500 € (a fortune for a VCR) in the mid-90's : Hitachi. Same for the V6000 or DVD1 : Philips. I was happy to use it with the beo4, but that's the only improvement I got from a standard Hitachi (and a great flat look available in pearlescent blue) for a huge amount of money.
In all fairness it has to be mentioned that:
The VX 7000 was assembled by Hitachi - yes. But it was not just a standard Hitachi wrapped in a nice B&O cabinet. It was developed by B&O -all (or most of) the circuits was designed by B&O. The tape mechanism was "off the shelves" - but most of the rest was developed by (or at least custom made for) B&O. Think about it: No Hitachi VHS machines were ever that wide... they were narrower and deeper - like all others.The basic shape of all VHS recorders was approx. 40-45 cm wide x 35-40cm deep. The VX was 54 cm wide and only 30 cm deep. A 'standard' VHS of that time could never be put into that cabinet. (and it is not like there's empty Space inside the VX)Another thing is: I remember when the VX 5000 was presented, the topmodels of other brands were not that much cheaper. That came later in the 90's when prices on electronics were dropping rapidly (just not B&O) - and the gap to B&O prices grew bigger and bigger.
However - as you say - the Beocord V 6000 and V 8000 (and the earlier VHS 82 etc.) were simply Philips machines with a few modifications.And I must say, that the price of the V8000 and the DVD 1 was rediculous. Almost 3 or 4 times the price of the Philips models. (and they were not assembled in Struer...)And the V3000 was pure Hitachi - hard to tell the difference from the original. (but not much more expensive than the Hitachi)
But, then Again... Look what happened to Philips and most other European brands, trying to follow the downward pricing spiral... Even Japanese brands are in trouble - Sony not making profit on Tv's for years - others struggling too to make money. It is tough when most people are focusing on price.
Mark: I was always told never bad mouth the competition, your product should stand up on its own merits .....
I was always told never bad mouth the competition, your product should stand up on its own merits .....
Agree! If you compete in the same market - it only makes you look bad.
Aussie Michael: Mark: I was always told never bad mouth the competition, your product should stand up on its own merits ..... Agree! If you compete in the same market - it only makes you look bad.
AVI concentrate on the relatively niche area of active loudspeakers selling direct to the public.
TerryM:AVI concentrate on the relatively niche area of active loudspeakers selling direct to the public.
So that where Gerald Ratner is working now ?
if the customers are happy with placebo systems , good luck to them!
Beo Century ,Beoplay V1, Beocenter 6, Ex-Beolit 12, Beotime , A8. Beolit 15 , Form 2i , Beolab 2000, Beoplay A3.Beosound 1