ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Understandably B&O couldn't afford to make a turntable for such a limited market, however uptake with younger people is gaining momentum and it struck me, having resurrected my Thorens turntable, that perhaps they should go in for making an arm for modern turntables - just like they used too. it could have a wide range of mounting options for different cartridges since they can no longer make them either. Possibly a box that allows wireless connections.
Most likely it would be way too expensive and no point unless they could do something different and make it desirable
we tend to forget there is more to design than designing.
Manufacturing a tonearm would be an even bigger catastrophe for B&O than making a new table/cartridge. The market for separate arms is exceedingly small, smaller by far than the turntable market. It's also entirely focused on the high end audiophile group, who will, in my experience, never, ever, admit B&O is "high end" and embrace a product from them no matter how good the product is (e.g. the Beolab 5). I've heard audiophiles who on first exposure were blown away by the BL5, who then pontificated that, well, it's OK, but it'd be soooo much better if B&O used "real" amps (inefficient class A units of appropriate pedigree) and better drivers, etc.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Vinyl has been commercially dead since the 1980'ties, and still is.
I'm sure some disagree, and that is fine. But young people (besides the occasional few who see it "hip") do not use vinyl. They're glued to their iPhones.
Too long to list....
Mark:vinyl record sales are on another high for 2015 and up by 56% and the biggest number of sales since 1994....
Right, but using the height of vinyl, when B&O were still producing TTs (and I mean seriously producing, not the stuff at the end of their turntable run) as a point of comparison, how much market is there realistically now compared to then. I bet it's still exceedingly small. But it could really gain steam soon, too. I'm not saying it can't.
Vinyl sales could group by an order of magnitude and still be a drop in the bucket compared with downloads and streaming. While I appreciate vinyl, and tube amps, for their retro-ness, it will never again be a significant market. Consider also the two main groups ov vinylphiles...hipster kids who can't or won't dump large amounts of money on a table, and hard core audiophiles who will never be Beogram customers due to their distain for B&O and their inability to use any cartridge, clamp, or whatever tweak is hot on a closed ecosystem like a Beogram. Personally I like my Beogram 3000/MMC2 combo a lot but I'm not a traditional audiophile anymore.
I would buy one if it had the same or better performance as an equivalent from a rival at its price point - Islington B&O have a Project 2 Experience deck next to a Moment and a small tube pre amp in between - it looks fantastic - the deck and amp cost around £1000 - that would be the problem for B&O I suspect. Other manufacturers are making decks that can stream to wireless systems, so I suspect Vinyl isn't dead in the same way that Polaroid cameras are making a come back with the film being manufactured somewhere in Europe. Even old brick phones are starting to appear as trendy again. The old technologies are never going to take over from the new, but they are gaining popularity as people crave more simple ways of doing things and not having to sign up or give out details to use electronic services.
A poll is a good idea.
interesting - I know I was disappointed with both the project turntables I had and put it down to the cartridges - The Thorens is definitely the best I've heard from my experience but it has a decent cartridge in it and my beogram 1500 has an old MMC20EN in it which probably needs a retip etc. That said the BG4004 sounded very good but had so many technical issues. I haven't yet heard any high end turntables but am intrigued.
I guess the ortofon cartridge (concord type) would be a logical choice if they were to make a turntable.
I don't see any meaning in a new B&O turntable in a time where you can get a refurbished Beogram 4000 with a retipped cartridge, for the same price as a new ordinary mid-price turntable with cartridge.
Furthermore, the bean counters who killed off the traditional turntable production are still doing their job at B&O cirka 20 years later. Where should it be produced? Of which quality materials? How about the cartrigde system? We are talking millions in development from scratch and even more for tooling a plant for the job.
Vinyl records, cassettes, open reel, valve amplifiers and film photography.
It's why I thought a good half way house would be to produce an arm and or cartridge to fill a gap and showcase their expertise, however I think you are right, it would just be too expensive for them to consider and too limited a market.
Don't forget vinyl was dead in 1994. It's a novelty.
Duels: However I would still buy a B&O turntable if they produced one
Would you buy it at 9.000 euro? That what it may well cost, and B&O would still lose money on it. As 20 persons would buy it. All Beoworlders.
bayerische:Would you buy it at 9.000 euro? That what it may well cost, and B&O would still lose money on it. As 20 persons would buy it. All Beoworlders. Too long to list....
I dont know why it would have to cost that much when everyone else manages to produce them at significantly lower prices - I recon £1700 would be fair - double the project but then the materials would be better and hopefully it would sound better than the project. On the other hand I am beginning to take the point that there are plenty of refurbished good as new out there so maybe that's the way to own one. I guess it would be too much of a strategy departure and seen as a backward step rather than forward, although my understanding is that Thorens stopped and have started again, same with Technics.
I'd guess the majority of turntable action is in the under $400 dollar range, either kids who don't know any better buying 100 dollar record grinders, or the more knowledgeable going for 400 buck Denons and the like that are actually pretty decent. Above that are a lot of UK and German tables selling for up to 1000 dollars or to a couple of thousand, then you get into the more exotic stuff, Linn, separate arms, etc. that appeal only to the true vinylphile.
If I had to replace my B&O and not go for a used Beogram, I'd more than likely go for the 400 dollar range Denon. Sounds quite good, simple, and affordable. At this point in my life no way I'd spend major dollars for a playback device for a media I hardly ever use anymore. I once had a VPI HW19 fitted with an upgraded platter, an ADC LMF2 carbon fiber arm, and I finally settled on a Sumiko Blue Point Special high output moving coil. Sounded good, but not so head and shoulders above the Beogram that I felt compelled to go back to it, more just different, though perhaps better in he low end. Now what made a huge difference on the Beogram was which MMC I used. For a while I had a MMC5, which other than being able to play records sounds pretty awful. The MMC4 is a huge improvement over it, and the MMC2 is just outstanding.
I think for carts they would still use their MMC carts and maybe let Sound Smith supply them seeing (with B&O packaging) as they are the only company in the world that have B&O's permission to make replacement carts.
Sound Smith have even gone one step higher then the MMC1 with The Voice which always gets rave reviews. I've never read a bad review yet.
Would cost them a lot of $$$ though to develop from scratch. I can't see it happening, because this would mean "going backwards" for a company that is pushing new technologies. B&O don't even have a SACD player unfortunately, let alone a modern turntable.
Their old turntables restored are great and can still be integrated with modern B&O equipment, I'd be more happy if they developed a SACD player instead first seeing as this is what I'd like to buy via B&O.
How many SACD releases have you seen lately? It's another dead format as far as I can tell.
Vinyl is certainly back. Not yet in numbers of other formats but it's growing faster each year. Clearly it will reach saturation but it certainly has not yet.
You don't have to like or even appreciate vinyl to recognize that it is currently an important part of modern music reproduction for both youth and adult markets and has re-ignited a new generation of music lovers that should be B&O's target for future sales. These customers are NOT the usual Audiophile types chasing analog unicorns. They are a new generation of music lovers that enjoy the simplicity of playing music in a tactile, enjoyable way and they are spending big bucks to do it.
I don't want tubes, preamps and snobbery. Just give me a one-touch convenient way to play some great albums B&O style. I've already got a great Beogram 7000 but I would pounce at anything new in the 2-4k just to have a modern, attractive, networked, B&O show piece. Whether B&O can afford that...
I wouldn't call a market that has been steadily growing over the last couple of years dead. As a company I would definitely think about re-entering. That doesn't mean that the outcome would be to produce turntables again. But not observing the development and at least considering the option would also be wrong from my point of view. In the end it all depends on future expected costs and benefits and whether a new product could fit corporate strategy or not.
Probably new turntables will end up not making economic sense from B&O's point of view since enthusiasts prefer the old stuff anyway and there's plenty of it still around. However, it's interesting to see that anything associated with vinyl fetches high prices on ebay. You won't get turntables, cartridges, washing machines, etc. inexpensively. This shows how big interest actually is. And prices won't fall in the nearer future.
Greetings,
Kai
There must have been an interest for the dealer in Islington to have invested in one and use it to demo - on the other hand Islington might be a different market. Maybe it should be a play product? take this and add some B&O magic
http://www.whathifi.com/news/ifa-2014-flexson-introduces-sonos-ready-vinylplay-digital-turntable
I feel lucky today as i bought a beogram 4500 in perfect condition.. Looking forward to connect it by the end of this weekend
Beovision 7 40 mk 5 ,beovision 6x3, beosound 3000, beogram 3300 , 2 x lc2, 2 x beocom 1401, beocom 6000 x 2, 5 x beo4,
, 4 x beolab 4's, form 2, h2, a2,a1 and a beolab 2 😀😀
Normann: I feel lucky today as i bought a beogram 4500 in perfect condition.. Looking forward to connect it by the end of this weekend
When my wife and I moved away from B&O for a time, the only item I didn't sell was a Beogram 6500 Turntable. I still have it, and when I get my next Beosound (likely a Moment), I'll be using the Line-in jacks to connect it and enjoy the few crates of LPs I have sitting in the closet.
Sal: Normann: I feel lucky today as i bought a beogram 4500 in perfect condition.. Looking forward to connect it by the end of this weekend When my wife and I moved away from B&O for a time, the only item I didn't sell was a Beogram 6500 Turntable. I still have it, and when I get my next Beosound (likely a Moment), I'll be using the Line-in jacks to connect it and enjoy the few crates of LPs I have sitting in the closet.
I am going to connect it to my Moment or BLC.. But it will stand right beside the Moment, i think it's going to be beautiful :)
I moved away for a while but never sold my Beogram 1500 (1979) that I bought brand new when I was 16 with my first pay cheque - so quite understand - it will look beautiful - there is something about vinyl that digital just cannot compete with - no matter how good or convenient it is. There are some that like fast food and others that prefer to savour good food - even if it takes longer, is more inconvenient and cannot be ordered on command.
For those that don't get vinyl that's fine - those that do there is no need need to justify or explain it. It may have cracks and pops and not be seen as good but nothing in life is perfect and I don't want to live in a perfect world. But hey that's me, I have friends who revel in the digital age and others that don't - who cares, why not harmoniously combine old with new?
Why shouldn't B&O create a turntable for the modern age for a niche market. Bang and Olufsen is hardly mainstream so why not fully exploit living life differently?
Good comments.
Yes, no need to have a vinyl vs digital discussion. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.
But those that think that vinyl and SACD is dead, well sorry but that just shows that you are not in tune to the audiophile market.
A quick browse on one of the major Audiophille websites Accoustic Sounds and you will see. http://store.acousticsounds.com
It costs a lot more to develop a good quality new vinyl album and SACD package then it does your conventional cd or digital download. From the raw materials used, to the excellent presentation of the thick cardboard jackets that the albums are packaged in, to the mastering of an album especially for vinyl or SACD etc etc
Yet despite its major cost increase to produce, nearly all top quality Audiophille albums that are being released, are available on vinyl and some recording artists are even recording on tape still for the vinyl release and digital for the digital release. This is a massive increase in cost. Why do it?
Because vinyl is selling in huge quantities. Wake up and smell the roses.
I am a vinyl aficionado and yet I'm not biased. A very high quality SACD, played through a decent SACD player and system is a thing your ears will not forget in a hurry. A decent vinyl setup and SACD setup costs a lot of money though, so it's only the minority that appreciate how good these formats really are. For those that do though, there's nothing to worry about, as the people holding the reins of the Audiophile carriage know this and are not stopping anytime soon.
Vinyl has strengths and digital has weaknesses when compared to each other...only if your definition of those two words differs from most people's. But if it makes you happy that's good.
Also, the Audio Engineering Society did controlled tests of SACD vs. CD and the golden ears scored at 49.3% correct, basically random. SACD releases often are mixed and EQed differently in the market, the differences are not due to any inherent superiority of the format.
Buy CDs, get yourself an old Carver Digital Time Lens, and you have the equivalent of vinyl.but without the pops, ticks, and hassle.
In 2014 LP sales amounted to 3 percent of music sales, wow, massive. B&O better get a new table out stat!
And SAcD sales are so small I can't even find stats for them. Even Cd sales have tanked compared to digital downloads, which are being eclipsed by streaming.
huge sales. As Inigo Montoya said, I do not believe that word means what you think it does.
Jeff: In 2014 LP sales amounted to 3 percent of music sales, wow, massive. B&O better get a new table out stat!
Jeff you are about on the mark with 3% of the market which in the US equates to $171 million revenue from vinyl sales in 2014, the UK came in about £5.7 million and total worldwide sales were for $347 million and looking at the upward trend will easily surpass $500 million in 2015.
I would definitely go fishing in a non-fictional market ...
And that doesn't take into consideration the healthy second hand market in used vinyl
Interesting discussion. I have a Beogram 6500 and an SMMC4 stylus. Great sounding deck and super convenient from the multi room stand point (I.e. You can remote control it and skip tracks - or rather passages if you really want to).
I'm inclined to agree that if I wanted the best quality audio deck I'd be better placed with other options (Thorens, Linn etc.) and B&O has a poor reputation in the Audiophile community, fairly or not... Both of my brothers are DJs and use Technics SL1210s (one of my brothers is into scratching and beat juggling DMC style stuff); DJs tend to want bomb proof direct drive turntables that can take some punishment and connect to a wide range of mixers/amps. Many of my friends who are part of the vinyl resurgence just want cheap, cool looking retro decks with no consideration of audio quality (e.g. Dansettes). Hard to see how B&O would really appeal to any of those groups.
On a practical note, source selection for Phono is now in conflict with N.Radio (or is it N.Music, can't quite recall) so fitting a new B&O deck into the current ecosystem is probably going to be a headache (accepting that the Beoremote One provides opportunities to re-label sources - in my case renaming a digital source to phono!) it might pose problems for B&O existing customers.
My Beogram set me back <£200 - the old decks are easy to maintain and work on, look great and sound very good with a decent stylus. Perhaps the best way to enjoy a retro medium is on a retro deck?
When overall sales are small as a percentage of the overall market, 50% is not much growth!!! That's like saying Rolls Royce is about to take over the auto market because I sold 10 cars one year and 15 the next and no other manufacturer had 50% growth.
Brian: When overall sales are small as a percentage of the overall market, 50% is not much growth!!! That's like saying Rolls Royce is about to take over the auto market because I sold 10 cars one year and 15 the next and no other manufacturer had 50% growth.
No one said vinyl is taking over. But it is a fact that there is a lot of it out there. It was the main music format for decades. The fact that new vinyl sales are on the rise, means that there is even more vinyl flooding the market every year. Just because it doesn't sell as much as another format, is not a reason why not to make a turntable. The fact is though, that it's been selling since approx 1950!! How many records do you think are in the entire world? Not enough to justify making a modern turntable apparently according to some......
You want to get a good market gauge? Look at how many turntables have been sold new over the last 10 years in the $3-4,000 bracket (new B&O turntable price??)
Also, some music never made it from vinyl to digital, so there will ALWAYS be a market for vinyl as in some cases thats the only medium to listen to a certain recording. As is the case also with alot of old school recordings that were recorded on magnetic tape and now the master tape is in bad condition and cannot be used, a clean original 1st vinyl pressing then is an option that will enable you to listen to it in good quality.
I have far more old vinyl then new vinyl, as do majority of vinyl collectors. So please don't use the reasoning that because in brand new form it only equates to 3% of the market, that's reason enough to not warrant a new turntable.
Will B&O develop and make one though? I doubt it. Their focus it seems over the last 5 years, has been only to concentrate on tightening the belt and not dipping their toes into "new" territory unless they can guarantee $$$$. A new venture like this would be the last thing they want to hear.
Maybe the old days of B&O "magic" are over and we have the pencil pushes to thank.
I agree it is far from dead and the second hand market is thriving, imo it will outlive CDs and we will have streaming and vinyl - the problem as I see it is that as more people start getting back into vinyl there is no B&O offering so you turn to something else unless you want to pay an exorbatant price for a second hand B&O turntable. Having got my Thorens setup again, it way outperforms any of the B&O turntables I have had and made me question the B&O route for serious listening - at least in terms of afforability not in terms of ease of use or looks though.