Is it time B&O gave up on making audio systems?

Wading through old posts, I can see a few are still happy with their Beosound 5 and Moments but many express their complaints/concerns of how incomplete the products are, how B&O are plagued by perpetual software and design shortcomings and a feeling that they all lack the 'magic' of older audio systems (see thread on which system people would last lose). The insolvable issue is combining moving glass and aluminium with modern audio which is completely file driven not relying on a physical format. As much as we harp about how "Jensen and Lewis could have done it better"...I don't think they could. Lewis in an interview himself said as much. Furthermore, software problems and NAS/router incompatibility issues is rife whether it be Naim, Linn, etc... Given these two almost insurmountable hurdles is it time we accepted that stand alone audio systems are done and dusted. A big part of me does want to accept this but I may be fooling myself with wishful thinking.

seethroughyou:

Given these two almost insurmountable hurdles is it time we accepted that stand alone audio systems are done and dusted. A big part of me does want to accept this but I may be fooling myself with wishful thinking.

What do you suggest instead - for listening to music, then?

MM

Millemissen:

seethroughyou:

Given these two almost insurmountable hurdles is it time we accepted that stand alone audio systems are done and dusted. A big part of me does want to accept this but I may be fooling myself with wishful thinking.

What do you suggest instead - for listening to music, then?

MM

Something made by Linn or B&W no doubt...

Jeff:

Something made by Linn or B&W no doubt...

LOL 😂

MM

Linn no thanks.

B&W no thanks.

The point I'm trying to make is that neither Bs5 nor Moment have pressed our buttons since the gear from the 70s, 80s and 90s and perhaps we are expecting the impossible. The magical audio system I yearn for may not be feasible. Perhaps I and some of us need to reorientate our expectations in this day and age. Perhaps the Moment (with a few more software fixes) is as good as it gets. I don't think Lewis or Jensen knew how to fix this. I suppose the big problem from a design perspective is that the Bs5 and Moment so clearly don't look or feel right in the way a Bs9000 did but I have absolutely no idea what a file and streaming audio system could or should look like.

A encore device with airplay and touchscreen that 'dissapears' and cleans it'self in the procces. That would be magical.

I thought that for a while but tapping and swiping just does not compare to the physicality of physical media for me. The best idea I could summon was music on crystals that have to be loaded into pods like superman in the ice cavern!

http://news.filehippo.com/2013/07/superman-memory-crystals-can-store-up-to-360tb/

Have bought the Moment - i enjoy the device and even my wife (she really didn't like it in store and there were a lot of discussions) loves it and would not trade it in for something else.

So....., I don't think, that B&O should stop producing audio systems

I'd actually consider a Beosound 5 if it were still being supported in the way of hardware for the long term, and the fact that it isn't netlink also puts a damper because, for me, the BS5 does tick all the boxes. It has that "magic" and uniqueness we all have come to expect from B&O, and it is an all in one system that doesn't have to rely on other boxes (NAS, computers, etc). But again, no streaming, airplay, bluetooth, etc. Basically a fancy windows box, but SOOOO sexy!

Sal:

I'd actually consider a Beosound 5 if it were still being supported in the way of hardware for the long term, and the fact that it isn't netlink also puts a damper because, for me, the BS5 does tick all the boxes. It has that "magic" and uniqueness we all have come to expect from B&O, and it is an all in one system that doesn't have to rely on other boxes (NAS, computers, etc). But again, no streaming, airplay, bluetooth, etc. Basically a fancy windows box, but SOOOO sexy!

I love the BeoSound 5. To me, it makes me feel that my music is accessible and "organized." This fits perfectly with the old MasterLink. Something that I like about MasterLink is the sense how how everything fits together. The new NL seems to have a concept that isn't quite as organized, but one which I know is the way of the future. We're seeing a jumble in terms of B&O products that each have their own connection to our iPhones, Airplay, and various media servers. To me, this lacks the cohesion of the old ML. I'm likely sounding old and dated myself. Kids these days probably view music in a very different way and expect the individual connectivity of the new B&O products. I would just like to see it all "pull together" at some point. I think that how B&O differentiates itself is with its algorithms to help us select music. I do think that we'll be seeing a completely different sort of interface in the very near future -- one where voice commands will be used to select the music to play -- completely doing away with the traditional remote control.

I do sympathies will the Op .I do like bang olufsen as a brand but  i  have to say  they  lost the plot!!!,With respect to customers bought the beosound moment  the design is disgraceful! the wet stain on wood look alike!! what is this all about?Where is their magical ideas disappeared to?.

Why do we need music system? iPhone/smart phone ,i mac or android device or windows, streaming/playing  music to wi-fi speakers will be the answer .

To me, they seem to be doing everything right these days.

Essence MK2 with multiroom, support for airplay and bluetooth built in. Thats just barely in the market and they already launched another smaller multi room speaker with the A6 to complement it.

With Essence & Moment & Multiroom they really cover a lot of base

 

ed7:

I do sympathies will the Op .I do like bang olufsen as a brand but  i  have to say  they  lost the plot!!!,With respect to customers bought the beosound moment  the design is disgraceful! the wet stain on wood look alike!! what is this all about?Where is their magical ideas disappeared to?.

Why do we need music system? iPhone/smart phone ,i mac or android device or windows, streaming/playing  music to wi-fi speakers will be the answer .

Ironically I liked being able to control the iPad using the Beo4 with the Beolit 12 . If only the thing didn't have to be hard wired to the iPad!

 

I agree. The essence Mk II is a great product. So small and simple, elegant and practical. No wires, only a button away from music. No need for NAS, just get Deezer and everything works. Since I bought it I hade no troubels! 

Something I can't say about AirPlay. Dropouts, difficulty connecting and so on :/ 

I would love a new B&O audio system but cant afford it at the moment - I think they should continue as the new ones look great and seem to offer the functionality people want these days - they are also a good visual match for speakers and the new multiroom seems way ahead of the competition - software faults can't always be identified in the test environments. 

Here's an idea, maybe B&O should release beta versions of their products to a small number of people on this site to test first before releasing them on general sale - what better people to test the products and help iron out any deficiencies before releasing them for general sale - also good publicity and a show of how loyal people are to their products and the following they have? Probably a pipe dream and too expensive!

Alternatives I guess would be streaming from phones and tablets and making the software but if I spent £000's on B&O kit I would want a matching audio system to go with it

Andrew:

Here's an idea, maybe B&O should release beta versions of their products to a small number of people on this site to test first before releasing them on general sale - what better people to test the products and help iron out any deficiencies before releasing them for general sale - also good publicity and a show of how loyal people are to their products and the following they have? Probably a pipe dream and too expensive!

B&O are already doing beta testing externaly!

There might even be somebody amongst the members of the forum doing it.

But you can be sure, that they aren't going to tell you that!!!

MM

I would be very surprised if you weren't helping beta test B&O stuff MM. No comment required.

Duels:

I would be very surprised if you weren't helping beta test B&O stuff MM. No comment required.

what did they call the beta of Betamax ?

Betamini!

M😺M

Millemissen:

Betamini!

M😺M

There is a tv - and there is a BV.

The Beosound Moment looks like a coffin to me. Too rectangular and wooden. 

The Essence-'button' on the other hand is beautiful and a design with a more positive feeling to it. 

I guess most people have a tablet of some kind and will use it with the essence, the Moment does seem to be a expensive tablet in comparison. And who needs 'moods-wheels' and that sort of things. A random-play function as can be found on every cheap digital music player is enough for me, and otherwise I like to choose my music myself. These days due to the digital revolution, B&O's old mechanical 'magic' is difficult to maintain. Though I must say that the Beosound 5 still managed that very well; perhaps such designs shouldn't be dumped to easily by B&o, but better upgrade them. It's not so easy to design something new and revolutionary every time again.

Regarding sales; they'd better put more effort in the TV division as most money is made there. Why no smaller bedroom TV any more? 

If the car industry succeeds in 'retro' models that are very popular, why couldn't B&O put out a modern version of some old designs? It's a very successful strategy apparently. 

jc:

Regarding sales; they'd better put more effort in the TV division as most money is made there. Why no smaller bedroom TV any more?

Unfortunately this is not true!

it is very hard to make money on a premium tv - and it is hard and expensive to keep up with the pace of the current tv-tech development.

'smaller bedroom TV's'. I guess the market is gone for those - especially in the (B&O) premium category and at premium prices.

MM

As much I loved the physical formats, click and swiping is the way forward no matter whether I like it. With regards to improvements I would have proposed the following cosmetic revisions to the Moment before release (had I been lucky enough to sit on the R&D team).

Decide on two of three not all three: glass and aluminium or wood and glass - not all three.

I would have made the front panel entirely of glass like the panel of the Bs5 but touch sensitive and delete the aluminium wheel and replace with the a circular grove into the glass (like on Revox M100 Hifi volume control - http://www.revox.com/en/audio-systems/m100.html) which is touch sensitive and keeps the glass element consistent in the visual design throughout.

The side slabs in a choice of wood, brushed aluminium or polished aluminium (if you miss the BC9500).

The response of the system to touch commands and the horizontal panning is to too sluggish and jerky. Needs faster processor for the onscreen graphics.

Consider two graphical areas for what's playing now and what you're viewing to play next from a playlist. When you've finished viewing and walk away the IR eye detects this and fades out this area only leaving what's playing now on the screen. It could also fill the first area and zoom back to second area as you walk up to the unit ready for more commands.

Allow onscreen editing of metadata or drawing of cover art from a limited browser (like Weiss Man301's software). It works well, is easy and can be switched off so you aren't distracted when having a listening session.

Use an OLED screen so you don't get the greyish black background like you did with the LED display of the Bs5 screen.

Dispense with the android looking tablet and the design clash with its round corners in the square tablet.

Make the unit very slightly bigger so you can use slightly bigger font.

When you touch the glass panel it holds a blue halo under the screen directly below your finger tip until you press hard and the halo turns to white to confirm your command followed by a soft audible click sound (like Bc2 audible feed back).

When creating playlists consider drag and drop from proposed songs to current active playlist.

Some more ideas will come to mind hopefully.

More thought needed going into the graphical interaction of the into now that we have lost sliding doors.

Great ideas - maybe something for a next BS.

MM

I think there's a lot of sexy stuff that can be done with a touch screen with animation, similar to the TVs with the curtains that are virtual, since they no longer have "real" mechanical curtains. And styling, I'm sorry to say that the Moment is very un-B&O, it's a brick, to me it has very little style. I'd have preferred, say, a BS5 looking thing with a detachable tablet that docked into the wheel.Provide a visually interesting visualizer with an output to a TV so you can drive a large display with it, ala, I hate to say it, iTunes.

As for the ever changing TV, perhaps the best thing B&O could do is make the equivalent of a modern AVR, provide switching and sound and wireless and such that can connect to whatever panel you choose, there would still be the issue with updating HDMI to whatever new ultra def standard but it'd free them from being tied to an obsolete display tech, like a Beosystem 4 on steroids.And make a decent center again.

But all of this is academic. They will do whatever they will do, time will tell if it's the right call or not.

I have written it before (and have been blamed for writing it) the BS Moment is basicly a 'MoodWheel/PatternPlay'-device based on an online music service (Deezer) and netradio (TuneIN). And it is a device, that integrates well with the new NL-based devices.

The magic thing about it, is that it does this pretty good, if you let it.

I guess people expect it to do a bit of 'everything' - which can't be! The world of filebased music is to complex for that.

I freely admit, that it would have been better, if they had communicated that more precisely from the start.

Maybe they should have omitted the DLNA/Twonky part completely?

I am pretty sure B&O could make another kind of device too - if they want to and if they have the money for developing it.

@Jeff

How can they call BS5,Essence,Moment... audio systems?Any decent cellphone will do their(streaming) job.

I am an old school, B&O needs an modern AVR David Lewis style,,including streaming facilities ,and I will be the first one to buy.

 

 

 

Well MM, I will never blame you for being honest because you have hit the nail on the head. Your summary of it is spot on. The Moment is a good online streaming service pattern play device. That's what B&O think we all want and they remain convinced of this. We do want this but we also want it to play our own cherished music which i prefer to listen to more of the time then something Spotyeezer finds for me. Patterplay is on rare occasions good when you want to be surprised but like dinner time, I prefer not to be surprised too often as I know just what I fancy eating that evening. This is especially the case for classical music where all these online streaming sites are poor in their depth and variety of material. Online streaming - no thanks, most of the time! Whatever a music system does, the first thing it should do is play YOUR cherished, ripped and bought music just as well, if not better than any prior music system that you bought and then bring more than to the experience than the BC9500, BS9000 or whatever your past favourite. The problem is that B&O are thinking too far ahead to a time in the future when all who bought their music and ripped it are dead and everybody streams. We aren't there yet. Some of the best versions of classical pieces I have aren't on Spotyeezer and even if they were why would I pay for it a second time. Thank you for that honest observation MM on the Moment.

Millemissen:

Maybe they should have omitted the DLNA/Twonky part completely?

I am pretty sure B&O could make another kind of device too - if they want to and if they have the money for developing it.

Dear Mille,

You scared me with the above lines. And I don't want it to be 'Half a loaf is better than none..'

I payed good fresh money for it and want it finally be working as advertised, even if they send me a hundred updates a month...

If they omitted the DLNA (Twonky = DLNA) part than the Moment, for me, would be worthless.

 

And NO B&o should continuing making NL Audio devices. They are on the right track with the new NL audio.

The Essence mkII is THE example that they should continuing making audio.

Chris:

Dear Mille,

You scared me with the above lines. And I don't want it to be 'Half a loaf is better than none..'

I payed good fresh money for it and want it finally be working as advertised, even if they send me a hundred updates a month...

I just expressed my opinion - and I (certainly) did not want to scare you.

Just as with the BS Essence it could be possible to use a DLNA-based server (for your own music) - they just had to implement a DLNA renderer for the playback.

The problem is, that they have tried to combine the userinterfaces for online and for offline content, and that brings massive challenges - because of the nature of DLNA and of the often poor implementation of DLNA in the server software.

Most people think the Moment works well, when they use online streaming content (Deezer).

Those, who primarily use their own local content, seem to be rather frustrated (especially those with big collections).

To merge these two worlds has proven to be more difficult, than expected (again, this is my opinion), than one might think.

On the other hand - I have great trust in, what the guys in Struer are doing.

Maybe they will succeed as the software grows. However, that can only bring a little comfort to those, who have invested in the Moment and expect it to work now (like any old BeoSound did).

Personally I choose not to buy the Moment, because I don't need/want these two main feautures (MW and PP). However (you know that), I have always defended the device, because I am sure, that many people (today and in the future) will want to listen to/use music this way.

Will be interesting to see, how the device develops.

 

MM

I followed with interest the BS Moment, never really felt confident about it. Ŵent for the Essence mkII a few weeks back and I have to say it's a great system for streaming, both online and my Vortexbox NAS content. I am sure with updates it will get better over time as well, but as it is I really like it. I have owned linn DS over the years as well, so that's not a bad benchmark for me to compare against. Can't fault it with my lab 3's.hope to add multi room over coming months - A6 or A9. It's not a looker like the 9000 CD player, but all my CDs are in the loft, so a streamer is the way forward for me.

Stevegee, out of interest how does it compare to your Linn DS in terms of ease of setup, stability holding onto the DLNA link/staying connected to your NAS and sound quality?

I have heard the Linn DS, Naim NDS and Bs5 and a few others and I really could not hear a lot of difference in it. The price difference is staggering Linn Is £12k and Bs5 was 'only' £4k. They all sounded fabulous but I have no experience with their setup and day to day use/reliability except for the Bs5 which I had for 4 years.

Why did you move away from Linn as its iPad interface is highly praised?

The linn DS was very good, I had a Sneaky and Majik 109 speakers, so entry level (still £2k) but still got use of the app, but it was 3 or so years ago. There is no doubt it was a more mature interface, they have been doing it as their main source for years, so you would expect that. But for ease of use and set up, the essence is just as good. Ok the app isn't perfect, but I have had not problems with Vortexbox NAS or streaming (I have fibre optic so that helps) - I love the tactile remote, so I am not tied to the iDevice if I don't want to be, well for basic functions anyway. All in all its been very good. Importantly sound quality is very good. The multi room options seem to be better as well with the A6/A9 options, I like them both, yet to hear A6 obviously.

I just basically decided I preferred the look/feel of B&O over a Linn based system. So a focus on design as well as sound. I love my Lab3's! I think you need to spend a lot of money as you mention, in the Linn range to get something special.

I have tune in, spotify connect, NAS and my Virgin media box connected via scart to the line in and all sounds great. No complaints here.

Maybe B&O could go back to components, but for the modern age... A new stacking system sold separately.

How about an amplifier with inputs, people could connect speakers or tv through an input?

A separate digital media player that stacks on top of the amplifier, with some sort of interface?

A separate hard drive to store music files or even media files?

These could be in cabinets that match and are designed to sit on top of one another, but if not all are purchased can still look good. Something like a Beosystem 6500 without a cassette deck or turntable still looks complete. 

Imagine something like the Beocord 5000/5500.6500/7000 cassette deck with the motorised draw, but instead of a cassette deck the drawer reveals the Moment tablet that you can lift out. 

I would love some sort of modern addition to my BS 5000 stack. An updated version of the AV7000 would be great - maybe a matching digital/ surround hub like the BS3/4 in the stacking form factor? I'm certain the market would be too limited to make sense, just like releasing a new turntable, but it's ok to dream, right?

I'm not only looking to B&O regarding audio equipment as other manufacturers do offer some great products, too.

If you see the raise of passion for audio quality again (e.g. Sony with its High Resolution Audio systems or Pioneer, Teac, Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha network streamers etc.) I think that now it is especially a good time to develop an audio system. Not some half finished bad looking thing like the Beosound Moment, no, they need something with David Lewis style, class and substance that is reliable and of high quality!

Even Sony remembers that "Made in China" is not the holy grail and you find the proud "Made in Japan" sign even advertised on technology gadgets like the BSP-60 (which is a very nice companion by the way!).
They list "Made in Japan" as you can see on the (german) site, too:
http://eshop.sonymobile.com/de/buy/ok-smart-bluetooth-speaker-bsp60/

Have a look at the Sony HAP-Z1es. Built like a tank, easy, FAST operation, accompanied by a working(!) app on a tablet (iOS, Android). No computer required.
http://www.sony.com/electronics/audio-components/hap-z1es

Or the Astell & Kern mobile highend players...
there are enough signs that the manufacturers invest into quality audio again and I love it! We had too much cheap plastic crap that didn't work as expected and this new audio quality wave is a welcome refreshment!


Imagine a Beosound 3000 Bluray-Player system, a Beosound 9000 with CD/WAV/MP3/Bluetooth/DLNA/Airplay/WISA or a Beocenter 9500 where you can hide your phone under a motorised tray etc.
There are endless possibilities to make a statement in the market.

But Bang & Olufsen should NOT again deliver a Made in China *** like the Beosound 3 that'll die unbelievable early!
There should still be a FREE repair program for all Beosound 3 owners! :-)

So, yes, B&O should keep going and deliver an audio system that impresses, make a statement with great design and very high quality and it should be reliable again and work for 30 years like the old classics do (with servicing)!

Amen!