ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Considering the unfortunate beginning with my restored Beomaster 4400 it “appears” the main issue was not the amplifier but rather the new placement of the S120.2 speakers combined with this amp.
True, my Beomaster 4500 manages to produce a better, more well balanced sound with these speakers, it too requires tone adjustment.
If the Beomaster 4400 was not doing such a superb job with my S75 speakers, I honestly would have believed (and did for a time) that something was very wrong with this amp.
In response it has been suggested that I replace the S120.2 speakers with M-series speakers.
Frankly, before I go to this expense I would dearly love to know from our esteemed experts if you feel any of the M-series speakers would make a positive difference in my home environment.
While I admire the S120.2 speakers for what they can do with a violin, or perhaps more so for a harpsichord performance, overall I find them WAY too bright in the upper end and woefully lacking in the bass.
As such my S75 speakers are a major improvement over the S120.2 speakers and I am wondering if the iconic M-series would find a welcome home here with my admitted taste for less treble and more bass?
And if so, which of these speakers do you recommend?
Jeff
Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century, S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase, B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder
Buy and try.We can't tell you how it will sound in your ears anyway.
If you like disco, I suggest you try a pair of 1980s JAMO Power speakers. They willprovide the punchy sound, you strive for and with their high effiency, they will also give you the volume.The JAMO Power 555 is the only speaker, I've heard so far, that do what my Beomaster 8000 tells it to without asking.
Martin
I would go with Martin's suggestion. I like my M100s but I think you may find them too sedate.
Peter
Hi Martin and Peter,
I quite agree it is all but impossible to judge another person’s taste.
I do wonder about Peter’s comment that I might find M-100’s a bit sedate. Interesting choice of adjective. I wonder if Peter would describe the S45.2 speakers as sedate? If so then I understand although I would call the S45.2’s mellow….. ah beaten to death with semantics.
I will no doubt check out these JAMO speakers as you guys have piqued my curiosity.
I have two pairs of M70s and love them.
But check this out - when I restored M70 Pair 1 (it's documented in the archive - M70 Rescue and Adoption or something like that) - I compared them to S40s and S45-2s I had on hand. At the time I preferred the S40s just barely over the S45-2s, with both of those pairs head and shoulders over the M70s. A year later and now I prefer the M70s clearly over the S45-2s, which in turn are preferred head and shoulders over the S40s.
What's going on here with my preference changes? I don't know. But my point is, why not live with your new piece(s) a bit longer before making any more buying decisions?
Hi Rich,
Your suggestion is pretty much my plan and thank you.
It is a real shame about the S120.2 speakers as I truly enjoyed them when they were on the floor in my dining room. I especially liked to walk back from them about 12 feet and the clarity was remarkable…. I really thought I had a winner in their choice.
That same clarity I find grating now that these speakers are waist-level. Sort of like a clarinet, a lovely instrument in its proper environment, but if one was to have it played about a foot from your ear, the clarinet would quickly loose its charm.
The simple solution would be to swap speakers again, however the S75’s that currently reside in my dining room were gifts to show me what these speakers could do; and to be blunt, although the sound quality is superb, the cosmetic condition of the veneers leaves much to be desired.
The S120.2’s on the other hand are flawless, in as-new condition.
One more thing, I have dropped this point as I pretty much beat it to death, but although my new addition Beomaster 4400 is performing without a hitch at the moment, I am simply NOT convinced that the total disappearance of anything resembling bass with my original set-up is not an internal solder issue with the speaker connections. It is working now and I just don’t want the unnecessary aggravation to find the problem resurrects with another speaker change.
The current set-up in the living room is not ideal in that the Beomaster 4500/Beogram 4500-CD player combination is too large for the allotted space, but the sound quality is quite acceptable with a minor adjustment (-1/+1 treble/bass respectively). Why the Beomaster 4400 couldn’t do the same has again been thrashed into the ground.
So I’ll do as you suggested and enjoy what I have for awhile.
Thanks.
Guys, I know it is tough to make a judgment call on someone else’s taste, but I have the opportunity to acquire a nice pair of M-70 speakers, but before I do I would like to know how the M70’s compare to my S75’s, used as a common reference point. What sort of difference might I expect to find?
My affection of bass potential is almost too well known at this point, but this need for bass is not restricted to the dance music of the late seventies, there is also Saint-Saens Organ Symphony.
In any case your views on how these two speaker systems differ; strengths and or weaknesses would be greatly appreciated.
If I were you, if you want B&O speakers , I would look for MS150s. They should satisfy any yearnings for bass.
Thank you Peter,
I rather expected you would say something like you did and in doing so; saving me from plausible disappointment and needless financial expense.
I used to work with a lady who loved to say, “You will [fill in the blank] if you know what’s good for you.” Well I pretty much know what’s good for me and I am taking your advice.
It is not like to do not already have a choice of speakers from which to choose.
If I want to fully enjoy a delicate piece, say harpsichord or something with a lot of sting instruments, without hesitation I would chose the mighty Linn Isobaric speakers as you’d be hard pressed to find a speaker to match the clarity and balance of these heavy gems with stated range of 20Hz-20K and 500 watts per channel capacity.
On the other hand if I want to listen to Saint-Saens Organ Symphony at full effect I would choose the McIntosh ML-2 speakers with their two 12” woofers in each speaker. I purchased these speakers new in 1971 and they are 100% original with only the woofer foam surrounds replaced in 1995. They survived my misspent youth so I can pretty much say they are indestructible.
I mention my other speakers only because they are a known quantity to me. In a perfect world wanting to purchase a new pair of speakers I would go out to a proper retailer and listen to speakers in a controlled environment in order to make an educated choice. Well, unfortunately I can’t do that here on Vancouver Island, so the next best thing is to ask people who really know about stereo systems…… which is what I am doing.
My goal here is return my Beomaster 4400 to its prominent place of honor among my stereo “collection” in the living room with an appropriate pair of speakers to match its power and potential. I would then return the Beomaster 4500/Beogram 4500-CD and S120.2 speakers to the dining room where the speaker placement is perfect for this particular set-up.
I could move the tattered pair of S75 speakers along with the Beomaster 4400, but I had come to believe that the M-series speakers are a quantum leap above the S75 speakers. Am I wrong in thinking this?
Have you considered building a pair?
I am not nearly technically sophisticated enough to begin thinking of building a pair of speakers.
If I were, I’d tackle my Frankenstein Fisher XP speakers that I utterly destroyed in my youth and were rebuilt by the local McIntosh dealer in St. Petersburg using parts from all different sources. From memory, the tweeters survived, so they are Fisher, the mid-range are Scott, the woofers are Marantz, and the crossover network is Scott.
Never my favorite speakers, but they sounded reasonably well until a few years ago; I assume a crossover network failure.
I can fix a Beogram, but speakers are out of my league…. but thanks for the compliment, thinking that I could.
Your mileage may vary, and this is of course my own humble opinion, but I think speakers are the least intimidating audio product to tackle. Take a look at what's going on over at diyaudio.com in the speaker forums (or the Parts Express forums for that matter), and you'll see there are dozens and dozens of n00bs starting down the DIY speaker path all the time. And you being in BC, well, you'll happen to have some fairly local help relatively close by.
You seem to have quite specific goals in what you're looking for. Over at diyaudio.com, if you post something like you've been posting here:
"I listen to X. I own Y. My room is Z. I want it to sound like A, with a touch B and C."
You'll get a response like:
"Why don't you try building <insert designer's name here>'s <name of design>. First-time builders looking for punch bass in medium size room have all kinds of success with this build. Plus it isn't all too expensive if you happen to screw it up."
Anybody with a bit of patience and willingness to do a bit of research can build a pair of loudspeakers:
Piaf: I could move the tattered pair of S75 speakers along with the Beomaster 4400, but I had come to believe that the M-series speakers are a quantum leap above the S75 speakers. Am I wrong in thinking this? Jeff
I don't think they are. I think the biggest M series speakers control the bass a lot better, and that the MS150 in particular has low and accurate bass. However I do not think that the B&O speakers of this era were as good as the receivers they were making. I think the S120s you have, though not exhibiting the same depth of bass, offer a very accurate sound picture. I think they actually do this better than almost any passive B&O speaker - I would go with Martin's suggestion as I think you will be disappointed with B&O in this particular area.
However, I also think S75s are not a great speaker! I have owned two pairs and used one pair as my main speaker for many years. However they are just not very accurate - S45-2s are much better and S120s are a bigger brother in sound terms to the S45. So what I like may not be the same as you. From experience though, the M series speakers are in the same vein as S75s but with better controlled bass.
Peter,
Thank you so very much for your detailed and clear response. As a result, I am doing a 180° turn and abandoning B&O as a speaker choice.
I have had the time lately to “explore” a bit of my music domain, like basically what I see, and found a few surprises.
The biggest surprise is my newfound respect for Linn speakers. Trying to choose what I like best, I compared speakers as if preparing for my doctorate in music (or electrical engineering, your choice of analogy).
I found a fantastic review of the Isobaric speakers I have, and I had no idea that they were so exceptionally rare, or that they could easily handle 500 watts each. However it is no the statistics that I found so surprising so much is the beauty and clarity of sound that these speakers produce as compared to anything else I own….. we are talking in another league to B&O.
The McIntosh ML-2’s are another winner as a result of my listening back and forth between speakers. I twice decided to junk them due to their dated cabinet styling and sheer bulk…. And once again I am SO glad I retained these behemoth marvels.
The S45.2 were a delightful surprise now housed in a proper setting and the S75’s are just what they are, a very pleasant mellow speaker with decent bass with an acceptable upper range, not especially crisp, still nice to listen to.
The big loser in all this is the S120.2 speakers, a complete disaster. The feeble bass is the least of these speakers’ problems, as there is simply NO mid-range, and the highs are tinny, plastic, and painful to listen to sans adjustment to the tone adjustments. Yet, they are attractive.
Anyway, all the above is simply my views based on personal taste.
I sincerely want to thank Peter, Martin, and Rich for the most helpful advice.
If the S120s are sounding that bad, I would change the capacitors. Also look at the cut out switch which oxidise. I have had staff at B&O tell me that the S120 was probably the best passive speaker made by B&O!!
Hi,
You know I also have MC120-2 speakers and I agree on the bass not going very low, but what is there is controlled and accurate. Listening to organ music is not frustrating. As for the treble, I would never call it glassy or anything, but the exact opposite, sweet and a little bit recessed if anything! The mids are all there and neutral—voices on the radio are very natural.
This is their character, whatever system I tried them on. Currently voicing the Beomaster 5500, but much the same with the 8000, or even my tube amp!
Confusing isn't it.
Disco speakers... I personally hate them. Fun fair speakers!
Jacques
Agree completely - like S45s but slightly lower bass though not earth moving at all. Very accurate.
What I think this shows is that we all like different things - therefore one person's favourite speaker will be a disaster for someone else. I can tell you would hate my LS3/5As!
Confusing? Without a doubt. That we all have different taste is beyond questioning and should be celebrated. None the less I am more confused than before, if such a thing were possible.
I have a very knowledgeable friend who wrote in response to my questions, “I just looked and I DO have a pair of M70's, S75's, and S60's...and a S45 along with my old AR3a's and Klipschorn B's. Ah, yes, the M70's are virtually indistinguishable from the S75's. The S60's have a smidgen less bass, but are identical at the mids and highs.
So what indeed have we learned here? Honestly, I am not entirely sure, but it has been and remains stimulating.
I have had S60s, S75s , M100s and MS150s. I have also heard M70s and agree with your friend. S75s are from a slightly later group of speakers - the M75 and M100 being contemporaries. M100s have a much better controlled bass than the S75. I don't however think you can learn much from my experience except that in your case I would avoid S60s!
Jeff,
I have been following your saga on this thread and those on the S45.2 and Beomaster 4400. I can appreciate just how disappointed you must feel with the S120s and the 4400. It would be very easy to put your experiences down to simply differing tastes in musical reproduction as suggested by Chartz and Peter - if it wasn't for the fact that you like the S45.2s so much!
As has been pointed out previously, there is a real similarity between the S45s and the S120s - both are pretty neutral speakers and the only major difference is in the low mid-range/bass. And yet you find them so different.
Since reading of your problems I have been using my 4400 with both S45.2s and MC120.2 with the same source (a CDX) and swapping between speakers (both on their correct stands, and equidistant from rear walls ) and the differences are pretty subtle - there is definitely a family sound about them. I've swapped the 4400 for an 8000 with the same result. Now I know my hearing is going, but the mid range and top end of both are sweet, relaxed and detailed, and perhaps most important, relatively uncoloured. The differences are not dramatic.
Peter wondered if the S120s needed new capacitors or if the cut-offs had oxydised. Just one more thought - have the magnets of the Peerless bass drivers been dislodged and are suffering from the infamous problems this brings? The symptons - no bass and muddled lower mid range - could certainly suggest that. Or it may just be one of taste, as others have suggested.
I know the Isobariks, having been tempted when I was under the influence of the Linn mystique back in the days of 'subjectivity' in the late 70s and 80s. Whilst they may be 'musical', to quote the language of the time, they were definitley not uncoloured!
I only hope none of this has stopped you listening to the music as music, not as HiFi!
Cleve
Hi Martin,
I have kept an eye out now for over a week and no JAMO 555's have come up for sale.
Hi Cleve,
Thank you for your most considerate note which is greatly appreciated!
My disappointment and confusion in regard to the S120.2 speakers has reached a rather extreme level, however the Beomaster 4400 is performing well enough and I am more confused in this regard than unhappy.
Continuing on the confused theme, I am most puzzled by your comment that the S45.2 speaker is quite similar to the much newer S120.2 speaker. My understanding is that the S45.2 speaker is a profoundly simple and straight forward speaker that does not attempt to exceed its limited range capabilities, but by so doing produces a flat and honest sound. (Please correct me if and where I am wrong.)
The S120.2 speaker, I believe has a vastly greater range with the odd proviso in that it doesn’t have much of a mid-range driver which greatly reduces mid-range accuracy while diminishing the bass response, as the bass driver effectively drives the mid-range as well as the bass.
It is possible that the S120.2 speakers need new capacitors, however I do not believe there is a magnet issue as the woofers have a free range of movement.
As for the Linn speakers, perhaps if I shared that on a couple occasions, different people, different situations, but with the common thread, “Well Jeff, you talk about your stereo so much, how about I bring a couple of records or CD’s over to your place and let ME listen to them on your system.
The end result, repeated three times as if on scrip was, “When I close my eyes, oh my God, I can almost see the musicians, thanks a lot Jeff, it is official, my stereo is crap.” The verbiage naturally changed among the three people, but the basic dialog was pretty much the same.
Now to finish of the confusion theme I have going on here, part of my modest demonstration, after the Linns had wowed the listener, I would take them into the dining room where at that time I had the Beomaster 4500/Beogram 8002/S120.2 as a system and I would repeat the performance, different colouring but the effect was the same…. With the second performance I had truly “won” them over.
Did you catch what I just said? Yes, these same S120.2 speakers knocked them dead with the Beomaster 4500. However the S120.2 speakers were sitting on the floor, under heavy tables, and with the massive dining room table as a buffer.
You can them imagine my shock and horror with my initial playing of the Beomaster 4400. What started out mediocre quickly became less impressive, leading to my swapping amplifiers.
I had no concern that the Beomaster 4500 would do a decent job with the S120.2 speakers as it had done so for years, in two different dining rooms.
What I didn’t expect was how well the Beomaster 4400 did with my old S75 speakers, as I sincerely believed that something was very, very wrong with the 4400.
What I would dearly love is to put my Beomaster 4400 back front and center in my mini-B&O museum (collection, your choice) paired with a really good set of speakers.
The two things that stop me from doing this are first, I didn’t see the S75’s as an appropriate set of speakers and two, I still have this nagging concern that there really is a speaker connection issue, i.e. solder joints, and moving the 4400 could result in its premier performance resurfacing.
Thank you for caring that I will still listen to the music….. I do.
Talk about capacitor replacement and magnet issues brought a thought to mind.
When I first connected my BeoCenter 9000 to its two provided pairs of speakers, the sound quality was not the best and the volume kept dialing back. I have been around long enough to know that something was amiss so I carefully listened to the four speakers individually and discovered that one of the S45.2’s had no bass while the second S45.2 had no mid-range. I disconnected these two speakers and the sound/volume came to life with the remaining two S75 speakers.
Clearly the BeoCenter 9000 was protecting itself from what I guess from an overload from the slipped magnet in the woofer. I wonder if with all the talk about potential electronic problems in the S120.2 speakers if my initial “Issue” with the Beomaster 4400 was its well known self-defense electronics in play, which would explain why the problem disappeared when I connected the 4400 to my old set of S75 speakers.
What this DOESN’T explain is why the Beomaster 4500 does not have the same issue with these speakers. I remember well (but with fondness) how when pressed into service as my main amplifier [while my McIntosh 2255 was back at the factory for repair] and powering both the Linn Isobaric and McIntosh ML-2 speakers simultaneously that the Beomaster 4500 cut back the volume during particularly load passages while watching a movie such as Jurassic Park.
If there is a short or electronic fault within the S120.2 speakers wouldn’t it cause the Beomaster 4500 to protect itself as would the Beomaster 4400? If not then we have the probable cause of this lengthy, but stimulating debate.
If true I may want to rethink my rethink vis-à-vis the MS150 speakers. In truth what I really am looking for is a suitable set of speakers for my Beomaster 4400. I do NOT need the Beomaster 4400 to shake the world with ridiculous bass as I am well past that stage in life and if ever I feel the need to shake items off tables (God forbid) my McIntosh 2255 and McIntosh ML-2’s are more than able to do so.
Gentlemen, I look forward to your response on this question.