ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Good news (numbers) from Struer. Article in DanishThe Danish electronics producer lands a good result after tax of 7,1 million € in the second quarter of the foreclosed financial year 2017/18.
That is 4,5 million € more than in the same period last yearhttps://nordjyske.dk/nyheder/bogo-fra-roedt-til-sort/424b2399-b818-46da-af11-3280273467aa
B&O, the Danish Enron!
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
I think you should read up on your Enron history,
That was records of profits that was in the future but put in the annual report years before.
The problem with this was that the future profit did not exist.
I see nothing like this in B&O books.
Quite positive read well done.
Beovision Harmony 77" 2nd Gen, Beolab 5, Beolab 17, Beosound 1, Beoplay M3, Beoplay Portal, Beoplay Earset, Beoliving Intelligence
I'm quite aware of Enron and how it worked, having had classes devoted to just that in MBA program. But jeez, pedantic much? It's a metaphor for how a company can look good right up until it all implodes. Look at B&O's product portfolio lately? See anything out there that isn't buggy, riddled with networking and software issues? Certainly the dealers are all doing very well and not having any closures...oh, wait. I don't understand, and we don't have enough insight into the books, to understand what's really going on, but it seems to beggar belief that this is straightforward, given the many product issues we all know about from seeing them discussed here. But hey, maybe there is money to be made hawking Chinese module based products of the week, new and weird colors, and rebadged LG TVs. Stranger things have happened, the whole madness of crowds once pushed the price of stupid tulips to the stratosphere, and remember pet rocks?
Overall if they are making good money the way they're running the business now, that's bad for any true lovers of the brand, as there won't be the impetus to actually change the way they are operating and designing things. If shoving buggy rebadged or off the shelf items makes money, well, why improve?
Duels:A good set of numbers generally for the first half of the financial year. Sales up 15% overall. Play up 25%, B&O up 8%. Revenue was up in all geographic areas. No breakdown of sales by product type (ie tv, speakers, audio etc) that I could see.
Sales up 15% overall. Play up 25%, B&O up 8%.
Revenue was up in all geographic areas.
No breakdown of sales by product type (ie tv, speakers, audio etc) that I could see.
How much profit, not raw sales numbers?
KMA
B&O product history since 1991: Ridiculously long to list in a signature.
I think it is a slightly wrong comparison. Enron case was a total fraud with mark-to-market accounting and these practises are barely possible nowadays with Sarbanes–Oxley Act in place.
BO is experiencing a technological transformation, they held really well so far, given that they don't have a scaleable production, hugely competitive consumer line and widespread skills in building software ecosystem, it's a brand equity that helps them have a ride right now.
Apple had a very similar problem 20 years ago, but on a different scale.
It is a brutal world out there for companies playing in a high evolving technological markets and I have seen many of them going bust.
What BO is doing is quite reasonable, hide the details for now, build robust cash foundation, pacify shareholders, apply decent product strategy that you truly believe in and love; execute and execute.
It is clear that consumer line products are selling like a hot cakes in market several orders of magnitude greater than a traditional pro market. Consumer products are driving the top line growth and will have more attention from the ET.
Question remains will BO love and have a space to continue developing, innovating, surprising and delighting pro customers? time will tell.
Rebranded LG tv haha you are unbelievable
But lets not go into that discussion Again :D
Some sees the glass half full others does not
But Again if you know your Enron case you should use the metaphor where it fits.
KMA:I'll keep a keen eye on what's left of B&O after they have finished the current strategic transition – amortized their core-competences and transformed (streamlined) their development model – within the next couple of years. Maybe I will be positively surprised as a customer when the "new" B&O gets it together. Today was a positive surprise for a shareholder!
Maybe I will be positively surprised as a customer when the "new" B&O gets it together. Today was a positive surprise for a shareholder!
I think there is a positive problem for us, if they do not continue making stellar products as Beolab 50/90 and Beovision Ecllipse they cannot sell BEOPLAY products and license agreement on phones, car audio and pc will not exist
mczac:...it's a brand equity that helps them have a ride right now.
Jeff:How much profit, not raw sales numbers? Jeff Beovirus victim, it's gotten to be too much to list!
Was there any investment in new products for CES ?
that would save some money , in the short term.
Beo Century ,Beoplay V1, Beocenter 6, Ex-Beolit 12, Beotime , A8. Beolit 15 , Form 2i , Beolab 2000, Beoplay A3.Beosound 1
Hopefully, this will not turn this into an "Eclipse thread" (we already have one of these), but since it was mentioned above, here goes...
I just had my Eclipse installed on Tuesday. So far, it's been fabulous, but that's not where I'm going with this. My 19 and 21 year old give it rave reviews not just because it looks and sounds great (they expect this having lived with prior BVs), but they both said something along the lines of it being the 1st B&O product I've bought that they find intuitive to use - it works as they expect a TV to work - it's not "weird", and isn't "overly difficult for the sake of being difficult". (both direct quotes).
Anyway, as much as I miss the "quirkiness" of a "real" BeoVision, my sample of 2 indicates the younger generation doesn't see this as a value, but rather an impediment. Perhaps, B&O is on to something (not that they really have a choice). We may not like it, but times do change. Hopefully, they invest these profits to continue developing innovative new products rather than just new colors.
Stan
Really pleased for B&O with their turn around. Hopefully the stores will follow.
One of the Main UK dealer networks;
http://www.beoshop.co.uk/about_us
Published their results not so long ago, shortened (Companies House link);
https://tinyurl.com/yat3f446
What do the Beoworld financial gurus think about these results?
And very good Beoshop are too!
they had to close down our local shop as the landlords increased the rent etc but still have a good number of shops.
Duels: Jeff: How much profit, not raw sales numbers? Jeff Beovirus victim, it's gotten to be too much to list! For me the most pertinent profit numbers are as follows: 1) The gross margin is up to nearly 41% from 38%. Combined with the increase in revenue this resulted in an increase in overall gross profit from DKK530 million to DkK647 million. 2) Bottom line Earnings before interest and tax roughly doubled to DKK 70 million in the second quarter. 5 million positive year to date compared with 53 million negative in the same period last year.
Jeff: How much profit, not raw sales numbers? Jeff Beovirus victim, it's gotten to be too much to list!
Beovirus victim, it's gotten to be too much to list!
For me the most pertinent profit numbers are as follows:
1) The gross margin is up to nearly 41% from 38%. Combined with the increase in revenue this resulted in an increase in overall gross profit from DKK530 million to DkK647 million.
2) Bottom line Earnings before interest and tax roughly doubled to DKK 70 million in the second quarter. 5 million positive year to date compared with 53 million negative in the same period last year.
Unfortunately, gross margin/gross profit is one of those metrics which, in isolation, means exactly nothing. It's defined as the difference between revenue and the cost of making a product or providing a service, before deducting overhead, payroll, taxation, and interest payments. KMA made an excellent point about the reduction in personnel and outsourcing a lot of design and all manufacture to China, etc.
Simonbeo: And very good Beoshop are too! they had to close down our local shop as the landlords increased the rent etc but still have a good number of shops.
Excellent service indeed, but what about the negative balance sheet?
Jeff:Unfortunately, gross margin/gross profit is one of those metrics which, in isolation, means exactly nothing. It's defined as the difference between revenue and the cost of making a product or providing a service, before deducting overhead, payroll, taxation, and interest payments. KMA made an excellent point about the reduction in personnel and outsourcing a lot of design and all manufacture to China, etc. Jeff Beovirus victim, it's gotten to be too much to list!
Duels: Jeff: Unfortunately, gross margin/gross profit is one of those metrics which, in isolation, means exactly nothing. It's defined as the difference between revenue and the cost of making a product or providing a service, before deducting overhead, payroll, taxation, and interest payments. KMA made an excellent point about the reduction in personnel and outsourcing a lot of design and all manufacture to China, etc. Jeff Beovirus victim, it's gotten to be too much to list! And that is why I didn’t quote it in isolation. It’s an important part of the equation but not the whole answer in itself. I also quoted EBIT, which is calculated after taking into account those costs you mention (other than interest and tax). There are many profit measures and they cant all be dealt with here But to ignore margin improvements would also be extremely unwise.
Jeff: Unfortunately, gross margin/gross profit is one of those metrics which, in isolation, means exactly nothing. It's defined as the difference between revenue and the cost of making a product or providing a service, before deducting overhead, payroll, taxation, and interest payments. KMA made an excellent point about the reduction in personnel and outsourcing a lot of design and all manufacture to China, etc. Jeff Beovirus victim, it's gotten to be too much to list!
And that is why I didn’t quote it in isolation. It’s an important part of the equation but not the whole answer in itself. I also quoted EBIT, which is calculated after taking into account those costs you mention (other than interest and tax).
There are many profit measures and they cant all be dealt with here But to ignore margin improvements would also be extremely unwise.
So, your response to me pointing out that the metric doesn't tell enough of the story to let you know what's truly happening, is...to quote another metric that doesn't tell the whole story? C'mon man, I know you're a B&O optimist, so pretty much of an opposite opinion than me, but really?!
Getting rid of most of your employees can also make those metrics look good. If I have a 100 employees, and I fire all but 10 of them, my numbers will look better, but I may be beyond critical mass for continuing my business. I think B&O has sold off everything anyone is willing to buy, gotten rid of too many employees and a lot of their core competencies, and is relying on Tympani to do engineering work with off the shelf modules, and keeps throwing Play products against the wall hoping one of them will stick. Too many products have been abandoned with little to no support for buyers, too many products are really beta test products at best, and they seem to have no idea what regression testing is with respect to software. Time will tell which of us is right, certainly the madness of crowds leads to some unexpected results at times.
But it is a bit easier to discuss the numbers that are now then speculate in the future.
We have been given some numbers, and as we all know these can be adjusted as you please or at least for some years.
But I think for a discussion you should assume that these numbers are correct.
I assume the numbers are correct, my issue is the numbers offer little to no transparency into how the company is actually doing. Somewhere in the real official reports given to say shareholders, the true story can probably be gleaned, but as with any company the numbers will be presented in the best possible light. Hopefully that doesn't include being dishonest about them, but it's certainly been seen in multiple businesses before.
Will there be one-off costs for the Danish employees leaving?
Duels:Jeff I simply replied to your question “how much profit? with a couple of profit measures. If you want the whole story perhaps it would be best to read the whole interim report as I did this morning.
If you want the whole story perhaps it would be best to read the whole interim report as I did this morning.
Why did you choose to post numbers that really don't tell you much? If you've read the whole report, wasn't there a more relevant metric you could have posted? I don't have the time or the inclination to read the whole report unfortunately, and I'm not accusing you of deliberately cherry picking a good number out of a bad report, but the things you've posted and that have been posted don't tell much one way or the other.
Jeff: Why did you choose to post numbers that really don't tell you much? If you've read the whole report, wasn't there a more relevant metric you could have posted? I don't have the time or the inclination to read the whole report unfortunately, and I'm not accusing you of deliberately cherry picking a good number out of a bad report, but the things you've posted and that have been posted don't tell much one way or the other. Jeff Beovirus victim, it's gotten to be too much to list!
Let me put it like this....
If I had to present the results to professional investors and analysts in three numbers, those would be the three I would choose. And In my experience they would be the three key numbers for most of my audience.
The rest of the report is entirely consistent with those headline numbers, which to an informed reader of a set of accounts show clearly positive trends and performance.
You are looking for a devil hiding behind the headlines but I’m afraid there is not one there.
Jeff:B&O, the Danish Enron! Jeff Beovirus victim, it's gotten to be too much to list!
Duels:Let me put it like this.... If I had to present the results to professional investors and analysts in three numbers, those would be the three I would choose. And I’m my experience they would be the three key numbers for most of my audience. The rest of the report is entirely consistent with those headline numbers, which to an informed reader of a set of accounts show clearly positive trends and performance. You are looking for a devil hiding behind the headlines but I’m afraid there is not one there.
From Red to Black - perhaps this is why they will launch a limited edition black BS1 this Spring? Buy one, and keep B&O in the black
Roger