ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
So just to share my own very recent (and as yet unresolved) experience from a few weeks back. Apologies for the ramble...but here goes...
I had been exploring whether or not it would be possible to buy a new boxed V1-40, with an additional Beolab 11 and speaker package. Knowing that the TV has been discontinued, I wasn't sure if it would be possible to source new, but I did some googling, and spoke to a few people who appeared to be in know. I was recommended a dealer who has a fairly extensive online presence with a good stock listing, and B&O badged bricks and mortar presence in a few towns in the UK.
So I sent an email to this dealer with my precise requirements, and a couple of days later had a reply back by way of a phone call with essentially saying yes, it should all be fine, but he would need to check.
There was lots of confusion in the intervening period, TV and sub definitely new, then only TV, then speakers not available, but I remained patient, and showing good will agreed to pay a deposit after being advised to do so to secure the items.
Fast forward about five weeks later, I needed to head down to the dealer (350 mile round trip, as I am working away from home at the moment) to pick up and pay for the goods, only to arrive and be told that I wouldn't be able to pick up the TV, as it's in a warehouse, with no weekend access. But I could take the sub, and is new unused and sealed in a box. (I was reminded that he was doing me a favour by doing this, as he could make more money by selling it on eBay!) The dealer was relatively light on empathy and apology, but agreed to get in touch the following Monday to confirm a time for me to collect again, of course necessitating another long round trip. No follow up so, midweek I chased and after a long delay, finally had the following Saturday confirmed for pick up.
I arrive to finally pick up the V1, only to be told on arrival that the TV is in fact ex-demo, and not new and unused as I was previously told multiple times (I was given an extensive sales patter about why he had new stock). I was pretty disappointed to be perfectly honest, but I asked him to give me an age and also how much it had been used. He didn't know off hand (unbelievable!) and couldn't get the service counters. So I had to scramble around the floor of this dealership, holding the TV, googling how to get the counters downloaded, trying to find the USB sockets etc. At this point, I left went for a coffee (initiated by me) and came back to the news that they didn't know how to read the file. After we helped them sort this it it transpired the 2014 TV had over 16,000 hours TV tuner use (600+days). At that point, I stated I wanted a full refund, as based on my own projected usage of the TV, it's already had 8 years of screen use. He then started to switch on sales mode, and offered a discount of £500 (original price £2500), and included a Beo Remote One (the included Beo4 was highly marked on the edges). I was also offered an extension of the warranty. Brow beaten, tired (3 hours drive at this point) I begrudgingly accepted the offer. He stated several times he wish he'd never told me as I wouldn't have known any different, again, just unbelievable!
After getting the TV home, I couldn't help feel cheated, and totally disappointed with the whole experience. It felt, with hindsight, that from the beginning the dealer was not professional and ultimately acted in bad faith, despite the disclosure at 1 minute to midnight. Essentially it was like I was dealing with a dishonest second hand car dealer. And it's tarnished my view not only of the TV, but also the brand. I can't help but wonder if I am just too small fry in terms of sales value to warrant service the level of service I'd expect from B&O, it was certainly made to feel this way.
I sent a complaint to B&O, though none of my issues were addressed nor were my questions relating to technical concerns answered, only that the dealer is the contracting party and I have to take it up with them. They told B&O they would offer me a full refund, which I think I will take them up on, as I have not even been sent the correct paperwork, let alone a follow up from the dealer. I have very little time for such matters, due to work and travel commitments, but at this stage I almost feel inclined to make a claim for my expenses and time! I am totally dissatisfied with the response from B&O, and do I feel it needs escalating to the top level of management.
Anyway, apologies for the ramble, but in light of Chris Townsend's recent issue, I felt the need to share this truly terrible experience.
Ugh. That stinks. Thanks for posting your experience.
That's a really poor experience you've had from a B&O dealer.
It's very worrying that some seem to be happy to mis-lead the customer to extract as much cash as possible for products which are not as described.
Is there a crisis with the UK B&O dealers?? are they making so little profit so they are forced into these underhand practices??
pauljrog: That's a really poor experience you've had from a B&O dealer. It's very worrying that some seem to be happy to mis-lead the customer to extract as much cash as possible for products which are not as described. Is there a crisis with the UK B&O dealers?? are they making so little profit so they are forced into these underhand practices??
A significant proportion of UK dealers have a 'Used Approved' link on their official websites, but the used products are all the same on each site. So B&O are either holding used stock centrally or there is an arrangement between dealers to transfer used stock between stores (as is now common practice with used car dealers who are part of a national chain). Some dealers, on the other hand, have their own used or demonstration stock. The other complication is that many stores operate as franchises, whereas several are directly owned by B&O UK. It would be interesting to look at all of this in some detail. If one store incorrectly describes a used product that is then sold by a second store, who is ultimately liable?
Graham
Yes, your correct regarding pre owned products on the B&O dealers websites. I think there is a central unit for the Approved Used Bang & Olufsen, and the Pre-owned stuff seem to be for sale in the individual store.
The two mis-selling stories we have read recently are stores selling used equipment for brand new, thus charging full price, this, in my opinion is a disgraceful way to get as much money from customers as possible, knowing that most people don't know about the serial number/age connection, and the truth might only come out when the customer sells the equipment, sometimes many years down the line.
pauljrog: The two mis-selling stories we have read recently are stores selling used equipment for brand new, thus charging full price, this, in my opinion is a disgraceful way to get as much money from customers as possible, knowing that most people don't know about the serial number/age connection, and the truth might only come out when the customer sells the equipment, sometimes many years down the line.
The resale issue a really good point pauljrog that I hadn't considered.
The attempt to mis-sell is of course totally unacceptable, but for me the total experience fell so far short of expectations (including the B&O corporate response) it has hugely dented my positive perception of the brand. It's also shaken my faith in B&O to resolve an issue when the dealer cannot or will not.
From a financial point of view, as a consumer it's not really on to incur expenses in order to complete a fairly simple transaction owing to the incompetence of the business I am dealing with. I think it's fair to say that in light of the circumstances, I have been left out of pocket.
For me, my family and my peers the experience is as important as the product. I had incredible service at the Hanover Square store, so that really set the bar in terms of my expectations. It's just a real shame, and a real waste of my time.
I'll let you all know if and when B&O do come back to me, and thank you all for your input!
Because you brought an ex demo TV, this in my opinion is worse than secondhand as these tv's are on all the time everyday in the dealers, no wonder it had raked up 16,000 hours!!!
This TV should of been heavily discounted, I must admit the minuite you found out the usage hours I would of demanded a refund of my deposit then just left the store, driven home, then a very stiff drink!!
Do you have your Beolab 11 sub? are you confident it is brand new?? When did they stop making them? As there is the Beolab 19 now.
If you want discontinued or second had products - Forget dealers, buy privately from a good home and you'll never go too far wrong. All dealers do is add margin and no value.
Sorry to hear about your experience but having worked in a B&O dealer in the past I can't say I'm surprised.
I’ve just spoken to Shawbrooks who are the finance company in my case, and to say they aren’t impressed is an understatement. I’m being sent a “fraud pack”, so I’ll let you all know.
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
The whole Approved Used thing is a mess. One greedy dealer biting off more than he could chew, with little support from the dealer network as they 'don't want to be giving profits to another dealer they don't like'. It's all very inward looking.
So, what's happened is the 'cream of his/her part exchanges' stay with the dealer to advertise in his or her own store, for his/her own benefit and profit, and anything they're not really bothered about goes onto Approved Used. Anything current or saleable on Approved Used will in all likelihood belong to B&O Canterbury, and the rest will belong to a small handful of dealers who have any kind of relationship with B&O Canterbury.
Not all of the products are at 'Approved Used HQ'. In fact, very few are.. They stay with the dealer who has uploaded them. Descriptions are from the end of a telephone, or are at the mercy of a person who may be in the mindset of "well, it's got a few marks but its used, what do they expect, so apart from those marks it's mint, so I'll just put Mint'. Getting a seller to describe something is almost always different to the description a buyer would give it. That's life.
So, what you have is an unregulated mess which looks to have slowly fallen apart over the course of this year.
I won't go into details here, but I've been suggesting for years that ALL used B&O under 3-5 years old taken in by Dealers (depending on product) goes to a central warehouse where it's fully tested, properly cleaned, software updated, photograped in detail, the uploaded to a proper website which dealers and customers can log into. There would be a retail price for the customer, and a 'trade' price for the dealer, delivered to their store - and with a warranty. Oh, and if the dealer needs cash, fast, I'd simply offer to buy the products immediately using a menu-pricing system.
This system could also be used for part exchange quotes, so dealers could get an instant price whilst a customer sat there - where they could see two prices. One 'to sell it into the Approved Used System' and a higher price to 'enter it onto the Approved Used System'. It would then depend on the dealer, and his/her cashflow situation, to decide which.
When a customer buys a product it's delivered to their nearest dealer for onward home delivery if it's big or complex and needs install or set-up (chargeable, of course, and thus creating a new relationship for the dealer and buyer), or direct to home for smaller products, with telephone support from the local dealer if required. Again, this builds dialogue and starts a relationship.
So, a central Quality Control, products a dealer can rely on being 'as described' when opening the box and having zero work to carry out, products a customer can have complete faith in, properly described, and an easy to use website which creates a great first-experience for new customers to introduce them to the brand. All in an external warehouse where the product won't get in the way, and the dealer can have a clear and uncluttered showroom (and stock room).
So... I offered my services as, well... you know.. I kind of did that already? I had the staff, the warehouse, the knowledge, the high standards, plus a clear and written down blueprint of how it would all work, properly...
Nope. The UK's Head of Sales decided a dealer he liked to have a few beers with, who had too much on his plate already was the perfect man for the job. His poor staff bearing the brunt of this new and huge workload simply couldn't find enough hours in the day, so an accountant (yes, a B&O accountant) was brought in to supervise building a website, making a crude photography area, describing products, and then handing over the site to the dealer.
It's not my place to say what ensued, but the (actually very capable) person tasked with running the Approved Used threw in the towel, and the poor guy left with it simply doesn't look like he has time. Their Facebook page is barely touched from month to month, and the website is full of overpriced products - most with no images, or 'stock' images (I don't know which is worse).
So, whilst there's no clear structure for Approved Used - and many dealers are desperate for cash, I'd proceed with caution if you do make a purchase. Do your research in advance, ask on here, ask for documentation to back facts up, and don't ever assume the UK Head Office have time for your complaints.
Lee
Chris Townsend: I’ve just spoken to Shawbrooks who are the finance company in my case, and to say they aren’t impressed is an understatement. I’m being sent a “fraud pack”, so I’ll let you all know.
Chris, if I were the dealer involved in your case, I'd be getting pretty nervous at this stage. If it is found they have knowingly committed fraud, they will find it very hard to get FCA authorisation to act as credit broker for any lender going forwards. Hopefully you'll get a resolution quickly!
Lee, that's a really interesting insight, thank you!
Edit: For clarity, I didn't purchase from Canterbury or Approved Used.
9 LEE: The whole Approved Used thing is a mess. One greedy dealer biting off more than he could chew, with little support from the dealer network as they 'don't want to be giving profits to another dealer they don't like'. It's all very inward looking. So, what's happened is the 'cream of his/her part exchanges' stay with the dealer to advertise in his or her own store, for his/her own benefit and profit, and anything they're not really bothered about goes onto Approved Used. Anything current or saleable on Approved Used will in all likelihood belong to B&O Canterbury, and the rest will belong to a small handful of dealers who have any kind of relationship with B&O Canterbury. Not all of the products are at 'Approved Used HQ'. In fact, very few are.. They stay with the dealer who has uploaded them. Descriptions are from the end of a telephone, or are at the mercy of a person who may be in the mindset of "well, it's got a few marks but its used, what do they expect, so apart from those marks it's mint, so I'll just put Mint'. Getting a seller to describe something is almost always different to the description a buyer would give it. That's life. So, what you have is an unregulated mess which looks to have slowly fallen apart over the course of this year. I won't go into details here, but I've been suggesting for years that ALL used B&O under 3-5 years old taken in by Dealers (depending on product) goes to a central warehouse where it's fully tested, properly cleaned, software updated, photograped in detail, the uploaded to a proper website which dealers and customers can log into. There would be a retail price for the customer, and a 'trade' price for the dealer, delivered to their store - and with a warranty. Oh, and if the dealer needs cash, fast, I'd simply offer to buy the products immediately using a menu-pricing system. This system could also be used for part exchange quotes, so dealers could get an instant price whilst a customer sat there - where they could see two prices. One 'to sell it into the Approved Used System' and a higher price to 'enter it onto the Approved Used System'. It would then depend on the dealer, and his/her cashflow situation, to decide which. When a customer buys a product it's delivered to their nearest dealer for onward home delivery if it's big or complex and needs install or set-up (chargeable, of course, and thus creating a new relationship for the dealer and buyer), or direct to home for smaller products, with telephone support from the local dealer if required. Again, this builds dialogue and starts a relationship. So, a central Quality Control, products a dealer can rely on being 'as described' when opening the box and having zero work to carry out, products a customer can have complete faith in, properly described, and an easy to use website which creates a great first-experience for new customers to introduce them to the brand. All in an external warehouse where the product won't get in the way, and the dealer can have a clear and uncluttered showroom (and stock room). So... I offered my services as, well... you know.. I kind of did that already? I had the staff, the warehouse, the knowledge, the high standards, plus a clear and written down blueprint of how it would all work, properly... Nope. The UK's Head of Sales decided a dealer he liked to have a few beers with, who had too much on his plate already was the perfect man for the job. His poor staff bearing the brunt of this new and huge workload simply couldn't find enough hours in the day, so an accountant (yes, a B&O accountant) was brought in to supervise building a website, making a crude photography area, describing products, and then handing over the site to the dealer. It's not my place to say what ensued, but the (actually very capable) person tasked with running the Approved Used threw in the towel, and the poor guy left with it simply doesn't look like he has time. Their Facebook page is barely touched from month to month, and the website is full of overpriced products - most with no images, or 'stock' images (I don't know which is worse). So, whilst there's no clear structure for Approved Used - and many dealers are desperate for cash, I'd proceed with caution if you do make a purchase. Do your research in advance, ask on here, ask for documentation to back facts up, and don't ever assume the UK Head Office have time for your complaints. Lee
Grim.
A version of this was suggested in... what? 2007/8. B&O UK very touchy in those days abut the (then) novel idea of resellers with online identities, a corporate image and their own customers...
Despite many conversations and at least 2 recommendations from the distribution, HO were simply not up for getting involved.
Sad, because it could have worked.
Having worked within the brand for 30+ years, my solution is simple. I don't trade-in, but offer my customer the options of selling their old products on EBay via my account, and give them the proceeds of the sale less fees. This way I don't have profit of new sales tied up in trade-ins, and the customer doesn't have to deal with the EBay 'buyer' coming to their homes, and the general inconvenience of selling via EBay...
SHEFFIELD: Having worked within the brand for 30+ years, my solution is simple. I don't trade-in, but offer my customer the options of selling their old products on EBay via my account, and give them the proceeds of the sale less fees. This way I don't have profit of new sales tied up in trade-ins, and the customer doesn't have to deal with the EBay 'buyer' coming to their homes, and the general inconvenience of selling via EBay...
Tested and guaranteed?
Tested to ensure sold as advertised, but without warranty...
I understand everything you guys are saying, but it doesn't address the underlying issue that I was purchasing on the premise that the goods were new, unused and in a box. I wasn't buying ex-demo, or trade in. I was told by the dealer in question that they had several units in stock, after they had the foresight to buy all the remaining units as they became discontinued, knowing what a popular TV the V1 was...
mrCTE: Chris Townsend: I’ve just spoken to Shawbrooks who are the finance company in my case, and to say they aren’t impressed is an understatement. I’m being sent a “fraud pack”, so I’ll let you all know. Chris, if I were the dealer involved in your case, I'd be getting pretty nervous at this stage. If it is found they have knowingly committed fraud, they will find it very hard to get FCA authorisation to act as credit broker for any lender going forwards. Hopefully you'll get a resolution quickly!
Did anything follow on from this Chris?
I was thinking that the interpretation of 'Demonstration' might be the key to how this could conclude. If a dealer is demonstrating BL5's, and the manufacturer hasn't changed or upgraded them for some years, then surely a dealer might be demonstrating the same set in his shop or studio for years.
Chris Townsend: On my return I’m doing Oslo to Amsterdam which takes me straight over Struer! Bonus After what’s happened, all that’s left in our house from B&O is the Beolit 12 and some headphones. After 40 years of Beovision ownership, we will now be permanently looking elsewhere.
On my return I’m doing Oslo to Amsterdam which takes me straight over Struer! Bonus
After what’s happened, all that’s left in our house from B&O is the Beolit 12 and some headphones. After 40 years of Beovision ownership, we will now be permanently looking elsewhere.
Flying over Struer sounds like some sort of wartime escapade under these circumstances!
First we take Manhattan, then we take....Struer.
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Chris Townsend:In September I was targeted by an LGBT activist who wrote to my company saying I was homophobic. I lost my job within 36 hours after 12 years service, appealed and after 4 months of due process was given my job back. I immediately resigned as i had got a better job, and have been flat out training.
Wow Chris that must have been an awful experience, good luck with your new job.
Cleviebaby: Chris Townsend: In September I was targeted by an LGBT activist who wrote to my company saying I was homophobic. I lost my job within 36 hours after 12 years service, appealed and after 4 months of due process was given my job back. I immediately resigned as i had got a better job, and have been flat out training. Chris, That is truly worrying. You must have been devastated. I’m pleased that things seem to have been resolved but that 4 months must have been incredibly difficult. Best wishes for the future, Cleve
Chris Townsend: In September I was targeted by an LGBT activist who wrote to my company saying I was homophobic. I lost my job within 36 hours after 12 years service, appealed and after 4 months of due process was given my job back. I immediately resigned as i had got a better job, and have been flat out training.
In September I was targeted by an LGBT activist who wrote to my company saying I was homophobic. I lost my job within 36 hours after 12 years service, appealed and after 4 months of due process was given my job back. I immediately resigned as i had got a better job, and have been flat out training.
Chris,
That is truly worrying. You must have been devastated. I’m pleased that things seem to have been resolved but that 4 months must have been incredibly difficult.
Best wishes for the future,
Cleve
Saddened to hear you had to go through such a kangaroo court experience Chris. Hopefully they had to pay you 4 months back wages in addition to giving you back your job. Glad to hear you found another opportunity and hope it's better, it would be difficult to impossible to continue working for a company that had done that to you, you could never trust them again. While I've never experienced anything as bad as you have, I know that once a company loses your trust it's never going to be a good environment or job.
As for B&O, sadly again I have to agree with your assessment of them.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Was the Dealer ever mentioned by name? Others may wish to steer clear of this establishment if they know the actual store name and/or individual you had to deal with. Such a shame this type of behavior would ever be tolerated by B&O. If you can’t trust your Dealer, then who? Very sorry to hear about your experience