As a middle aged man today I am looking at how much I have spent over the years with Mr. B&O...

I first got into the marche in the 1970's and today wish I had bought a Beogram 4000 when I had the chance at around £200 new! But I didn't. I went Technics instead!

But over many yearsI have gone back to B&O again and again. Some Products I can be very happy with, others not so much.

But then I look at the situation today.. In the 1980's a decent B&O TV or sound system was 2-3 times the equivalent mass produced Japanese product. Today it is 10-20 times more! This is becoming really hard to justify?

TV's costing £12k? When mainstream TV's are the cheapest they have ever been? Speakers costing 5,10,30,60 grand?? 

I am saying this as an owner of some of their most expensive equipment. But I can't help but question my investment in their products? I will always love the build quality but sometimes I hate the sound quality! I just know I can get 10x better elsewhere. But where? There are no HiFi shops anymore? We all want cheap Spotify and other streaming convenience music right? All those amazing HiFi shops in Tottenham Court Road have now been replaced with corner shop electronics. 

So I guess the question is.... would you blow another huge amount on Beolab 50's when there is a love/hate relationship with this company?

For audio, B&O is nice.

For video, go elsewhere.

Do not pay large sums of money only to do beta testing for the company - unless all features are in place and can be demonstrated to operate over a reasonable period of time without issue then sit back and read about other folk' s problems here!

Not sure if it's quite as simple as that, though I understand the nature of the question.

They still make nicer looking speakers than most of the competition, be that smaller portable units, BeoSound products, or higher end Beolab speakers.

And most sound pretty damn good - the 50's are incredible, it made no sense to me how good they sounded.

And in the more modern streaming speaker one point systems, while they're all limited (even an A9), the competition is underwhelming. The Naim Muso is OK for 800 pounds, but it's nothing special, so the A9 at double the amount is not stretching the value proposition too much.

The main change is that the architecture linking all this stuff will likely migrate away from B&O to other protocols.

I agree that the BV side was once a good center point for everything to tie together, but other protocols mean that a BV may not be necessary going forward. Is that a bad thing?

Perhaps not necessarily - as long as a future B&O hub can serve to integrate a 3rd party TV with a bunch of B&O speakers, then you still get the aesthetics and sound of B&O, plus the flexibility to chose whichever screen you want. That's not a terrible outcome, especially if it means saving money on the TV side.

Whether that hub is a hub alone or a sound bar / hub combined is important, and what type of control interface comes with it also matters.

Until we have more clarity on this, it's tough to invest deeper into B&O architecture - with that I agree.

I certainly hope they get it right - agree that spending 7-10k on a TV seems silly now. A 3-4k sound center / hub supplemented by an OLED of your choice, be that 1500 pounds or 3k gives people more flexibility.

Here's hoping.

Whether the BeoLab 50s sound good or not,  the software problems for these items seem to be causing members of this forum and others on going headaches. Life is too short to put up with this.

Spotify diasspearing on a main product within 2 years of purchase and the replacement item only being in the range for a seemingly short period, seems to me that products have such a short shelf life now.

Also spares for complex items may a concern in the medium to long term, BeoLab 1s have suffered from this for a while now.

Hence, for me, the chance they become expensive doorstops is too big a financial risk to take.

Very happy with my Eclipse, IMO very much value for the price compared to other tv's combined with AV receivers.

I hope I will never have to have such a solution again. It just don't function well.

I have had 7 flatscreens and 5 different receivers before my Eclipse,

Never been more pleased with my setup as I am now.

Not sure this is relevant anymore with the current portfolio. The multi-room speaker software has been 100% for more than 3-years now and the Airplay 2 roll-out has been really good as well. And the Eclipse software on WebOS is also really solid. 

B&O maybe not the best software development house, but the days are now gone with AndroidOS, some of the BeoSystem 4 and worse the BeoSystem 3 issues of yesteryear. I'm sorry for those on the AvantNG and Horizon - you rightly have plenty to be upset about. 

I recently traded my Avant Mk 1 in and gained what I would have expected as a solid trade-in against the Eclipse. Surprisingly, my only disappointment was the value I got from a Beosound 2 which I thought would do better.

 

 

In the days of old (I'm thinking BeoVision Avant CRT etc..) a tube screen TV could be "relevant" technology for 10+ years.  Now... I'd say that within 2-3 years the technology is outdated.  So, a TV isn't a sound investment unless you buy it with open eyes and accept that if you keep it and get long term value, it'll be a dinosaur by the time you have...

Music Systems - the same.

Speakers, a slightly different story. A good speaker will always be just that - a good speaker. The only thing which would worry me is the availability of spares.  If B&O can sort that mess out, then I'd say the speakers are a good long-term investment IF you keep them.

Pre-owned B&O prices continue to slide further downwards, so that 'rock solid value retention' the brand has enjoyed is now a thing of the past. Just because it's got 'Bang & Olufsen' written on it, it doesn't mean it'll be worth 70% of what you paid for it 2 years down the line. Try 30-40% these days..

Lee

Over the last 10 years I have bought BL9, BL3, BL4000 and BL2 as second hand and the price was about 50% from new after 2-3 years.

The depreciation after 2-3 years is limited, it seems like the speakers are still keeping a good value after 5 years, even after 10 years.

I would not be reluctant buying 2-3 years old speakers again - I don’t need any right now though ;-)

I agree on the other comments in relation to TV and sound systems. But I am still very satisfied with my 9 year old BV7-55 - though it is like a Dino compared to new tv’s if today. Watching full HD content is still pretty good.

I'm afraid not.During past 20 years I spent some 25-30k € on beogear.All from new,except BL7.2.Two tv's (BV1,BV3) retired.Since then,gone for 3rd party tv.Unlike most of beoworlders,I see tv as a panel only.Video technology is changing rapidly,and I am ready to buy new panel every 2-3 years,for 2k €.And to run good old speakers as long as they last.And there will be always some workaround to integrate old audio with latest video.

Just wish new beoplays/speakers will last as long as this 20 years good old B&O.

 

9 LEE:

In the days of old (I'm thinking BeoVision Avant CRT etc..) a tube screen TV could be "relevant" technology for 10+ years.  Now... I'd say that within 2-3 years the technology is outdated.  So, a TV isn't a sound investment unless you buy it with open eyes and accept that if you keep it and get long term value, it'll be a dinosaur by the time you have...

I'm not quite convinced by this argument, Lee. I think it's changed again, in favour of a longer-term purchase.

Although CRT's did have a longer lifespan in the 80s/early 90s, this quickly changed with the launch of widescreen content in the late 90s, even for CRT users this made for a compelling experience (ie. 16:9). Then came HD. So these were huge jumps and go back to 1998. You had to swap out your TV fairly often in those days. The early HD TVs were dreadful. Remember the BV7-40 MK1?

These days you can easily live with a top quality HD TV (BV12-65 is an example) and a 4K Ecplise won't need replacing for a long time as 8K isn't going to be here soon. So you can buy a relatively modern TV (BV11-55 is another example) and you'll get a fantastic picture for a fairly long period of time. My BV12-65 is probably 5 years old now and still looks amazing. I don't feel compelled to upgrade so rapidly.

The BeoLabs 50 and 90 would make at good investment if only the worked as described in the white paper! 

moxxey:

I'm not quite convinced by this argument, Lee. I think it's changed again, in favour of a longer-term purchase.

Although CRT's did have a longer lifespan in the 80s/early 90s, this quickly changed with the launch of widescreen content in the late 90s, even for CRT users this made for a compelling experience (ie. 16:9). Then came HD. So these were huge jumps and go back to 1998. You had to swap out your TV fairly often in those days. The early HD TVs were dreadful. Remember the BV7-40 MK1?

These days you can easily live with a top quality HD TV (BV12-65 is an example) and a 4K Ecplise won't need replacing for a long time as 8K isn't going to be here soon. So you can buy a relatively modern TV (BV11-55 is another example) and you'll get a fantastic picture for a fairly long period of time. My BV12-65 is probably 5 years old now and still looks amazing. I don't feel compelled to upgrade so rapidly.

Agreed. It’s easy to say that as I’ve recently bought an Eclipse, but having lived with its competition in the form of the Bild 5-65 for 9 months, there’s nothing on the planet that can come anywhere near it as a complete package.

The thought in the future of B&O showrooms being devoid of a Beovision in some sort of configuration fills me full of dread. As for an investment, as long as it’s supported I can’t think of much I’d ever want now except more speakers, and they’ll be selected to accompany the Beovision ie WISA Beolab 18s that match my speaker grille.

The speed at which technology seems to have moved on recently actually puts me off spending big money. For example - I was tempted by a BS2 but after hearing a Apple Homepod @ £279 I was amazed at how good it sounded for little money. I'm sure there will be a Homepod 2 out in a year or so that sounds even better.. so I'll buy that and give the kids the HP1. I can't quite remember what the competition was like back in the early days of B&O.. but there certainly seems to be a lot today, for a quarter of the price. 

Can't seem to edit my previous post..

 

To add - I love my BV11-46. It looks cool. It feels quality. It sounds good. But, I know I paid a LOT of money that I really shouldn't of. I mean, a lot of TV's look pretty cool nowadays. Sound is obviously a factor, but the money you save buying a Sony or LG for example buys a lot of speakers - and the choice is endless today. The only bit where I'd say B&O have got it is to the touch - it's night and day more premium to look at and hold over the Sony / LG. 

 

Back in the days of the Avant CRT 32 DVD (I still have mine in my daughters room) the product had everything - Looks, performance, sound, and build quality. I don't think there was many rivals.. unless you went to a real high end hi-fi shop and bought 10 pieces of equipment and 2000 metres of cabling etc etc

 

I'm just not that sure anymore that I'm prepared to pay 4 times the price for only the build quality today. My next TV will probably be that Sony or LG.

weirdly a set of bl50's was a much better value proposition at launch then it is now, how ever you should never pay asking price with B&O, at least I haven't even 2 days after the 50's launched. but now they're around 6 grand more like for like and nothing spec wise has changed...

In 2011 my B&O Avant32 died after just 8 years. It was replaced with a BeoVision 7-4 mrk IV. Just the other day the display became faulty. The problem is, that B&O cannot repair the display. You have to buy a second hand TV.

I have written to B&O and told them, that they cannot sell to such high prizes for products they cannot repair. They answered back before Christmas, that they will look into it and answer soon - which I am waiting for. Just before that happend my BeoSound 9000 Mrk I died - and I bought a second hand Mrk II in stead. My Beo5 has never been useful because it used all the energy when I took it out of the cradle.

I still have my Beomaster 1000 and Beocord 2000 tape recorder from 1967. I have a B&O TV from 1985 still working It was good quality back then. They are ok still to day.

When you cannot be sure your investment last longer than 7-8 years it will be foolish to buy a second hand of the same sort. Now I am looking for a solution like Beosystem 3 or a product like that which can connect all my old video and sound systems/B&O speakers to a new television - maybe a LG television, which I am told the new B&O television have inside. Unless  B&O come up with a very good offer - but It has to be very, very good!

By the way. Speaking of Beosystem 3! Does anyone know which mrk number to look for, which has HDMI, DVHD-C - and which still can be repaired if anything happens?

 

Don’t they then? 

Mine seem to. Although admittedly they do keep switching themselves on randomly, and then sometimes refuse to switch off for days! Functionally, though, they’re spot on. 

HI

I'll preface my reply by saying I've had endless software problems for years now..

I'll agree and say I think the speakers are great.The old music systems if you are not relying on software updates are also great.

I won't buy any more music systems, TVs or multi room speakers, simply because the constant technical issues with software has driven me crazy! I can't spend all of my weekends when I'm home reconnecting, deleting/ adding products in the hope it might work. My partner won't even use the system now.  I'm going to go back to a component system I think. A good system should work and be in the background, not something that takes up your life with endless problems.

The customer service used to be helpful and courteous, now it appears either don't know what they are doing or can't be bothered! I didn't mind the odd problem before when I could contact someone and they'd get back to me in a week or and try to help. Now it's silence.

I'd think very carefully about any purchases other than speakers. I'm very sorry to say this as I love the brand.. unfortunately I don't think the brand loves its customers anymore . I suspect they don't care about their reputation either.  what really set B&O apart in the past was its amazing after sales service, now we have one store left in Australia and they certainly aren't interesting in hearing from me and any problems I'm having.

I'd love to be told I'm wrong and I'd love to hear from someone at B&O.. anyone?

I bought the new Beovision Eclipse a few months back David, and compared to my Loewe tv it’s software both LG and B&O has been solid.

MogensB:

In 2011 my B&O Avant32 died after just 8 years. It was replaced with a BeoVision 7-4 mrk IV. Just the other day the display became faulty. The problem is, that B&O cannot repair the display. You have to buy a second hand TV.

I'm not sure I agree with this either. 8 years is significant for the life of most electronic products used daily, from any manufacturer. If you think about it, your TV is switched on/off most days and gets a lot of use over this period. Panels - which make up the highest proportion of the cost of the TV itself - only have a finite lifespan and remember B&O has to rely on panel manufacturers and these manufacturers change their specs almost yearly. Unless B&O stockpiles old components and leaves them to gather dust in their warehouse, what else can they do? And even if you wanted to swap out a panel on an 8-year-old B&O, it would be so cost-ineffective it *would* be cheaper to buy a second hand replacement.

If someone said to be 8 years ago: "you can rent this B&O TV for £75/month for 8 years" I'd have gone with that option. I don't think anyone can get angry that their TV has only lasted them 8 years and after 8 years can't always be fixed.

You cannot get a new Beovision 7-40 with bluray dvd, 7.2 speaker, motorstand and  DVHD-C for that prize in Denmark. Here we have to pay around £123 per month - if you use 8 years. It only lasted in 7 years = around £ 140 pr. month.

I have a lot of old electric components, which I use every day without problems. My old computer, which I bought in 1992 stopped working in 2017 - used every day!  The old B&O TV from 1985 still working - so it could  be done - back then!

 

 

‘Is buying B&O today a sound investment’

 

I wonder what you guys would buy instead - I would not know it!

 

MM

LG for TV.  Sonos for Multiroom music. B&O Loudspeakers ?

9 LEE:

LG for TV.  Sonos for Multiroom music. B&O Loudspeakers ?

One possibility, yes, but.......

MM

In my experience, many of the music system software issues have been sorted.  I've had an Eclipse for a year, and maybe I've had to reset it once (and I think the problem was ultimately with the cable box).  I very warily purchased a BS2 a few weeks ago, and it has been rock solid.  I've had an Essence for a few years, and it had its fair share of issues until I hardwired it to an apple express.  Recently, I upgraded my wifi from apple to orbi (and dropped the airport express) and have had no further issues with the Essence.

B&O has definitely had their software issues, but maybe (hopefully) much of this is behind them.  Meanwhile, I have a chromecast audio that always seems to require some fiddling whenever I want to use it.  I put up with it because it was a $35 investment (vs. much much more for a Core), but I mention it to point out that B&O is not alone with it comes to software problems.

Go back to the question of "if not B&O, then what?".  I really did not want to buy an Eclipse, mostly for fears about longevity (see 3rd party panel discussion above) after the huge initial cost.  However, in all my shopping, I could not find anything comparable.  I definitely paid a premium, but I also didn't see any real competition (my room is shaped oddly so the motorized stand was crucial as was the overall elegance of the package).  Has anyone shopped motorized stands?  Ugly, loud and expensive.

Now I'll just punt to the original question - it depends on your financial situation, and what you want from the product.  Unfortunately, I don't think any product lasts forever.  Custom boards and advanced manufacturing techniques kind of kill the long term repair-ability.  Software is an issue everywhere (some worse than others).  Just pulling some numbers from the air:  1 in 100,000 might say the Eclipse is worth it.  1 in 10,000 might like the Beosounds.  1 in 1000 for the speakers.

A world of more than one remote!!

Aaaargh!

Seriously though, if they don’t come up with a way to integrate 3rd party TV screens with their speakers, then it's well and truly over.

Not saying that they won't, more that they'd better....

Sandyb:

A world of more than one remote!!

 

 

Aaaargh!

 

 

Seriously though, if they don’t come up with a way to integrate 3rd party TV screens with their speakers, then it's well and truly over.

 

 

Not saying that they won't, more that they'd better....

Solutions already exist, e.g. Almando or oneremote. No need to wait for a half-baked B&O solution.

Maybe they must ask Len brook from bluesound Node how to make a working Audio Streamer!

schatzoy:

Solutions already exist, e.g. Almando or oneremote. No need to wait for a half-baked B&O solution.

.....and the work of the Audio Department in Struer in the last 6-8 years just got neclected 😲

MM

9 LEE:

LG for TV.  Sonos for Multiroom music. B&O Loudspeakers ?

(Oops, excuse the typo; he meant to say, "B&W Loudspeakers"... ;-)

These other brands perform the same or better, in some cases *much* better, for somewhere between 1/4 the price (apples vs. apples, not less than 1/4) up to about 1/2 the price.  But the problem with most other brands is they look like $#!+.  Really, seriously clunky.  And they aren't all integrated together.  For example, the look of the LG W series is great, but you must hide its driver box.  The Sonos industrial design is pedestrian, but just buy their (new) "Amp" and again hide the box. What if I like the way a Naim Uniti Atom looks?  Or a KEF Blade, more beautiful than a BeoLab 90 in its shroud; add your own Dirac processor to get the room correction (oh, wait,... hide the box).   Add a Logitech Harmony or Control4 to address @SandyB's issue; alas, I have yet to see a multi-system remote that looks & feels as good as a BeoRemote One or a Beolink 1000, though all are certainly easier to figure out!

But new B&O stuff is kinda clunky-looking too.  The BL50 you mention specifically is about as dowdy as a B&W 802.  And it is no longer integrated together well either -- your app crash, much?  Plus the days of "audio icons", once a necessity to hide electronics, are over: entertainment can now be *invisible*, part of the fabric of your life.  (Almost: In-wall speakers still leave a bit to be desired, except for the subwoofers.  Screw it -- just wear in-ear monitors all the time.  What, you don't have Google's cochlear implant yet?)  Therefore, no: buying B&O today is not a sound investment, in fact it isn't any kind of investment.  If you happen to like the way it looks, then it's a fun fashion accessory, with a fashion lifetime.

Yes! A premium brand that doesn't make a good working audio streamer.

 

 

Seriously? KEF Blades over Beolab 90s?

really?!!

AdamS:

Seriously? KEF Blades over Beolab 90s?  really?!!

Oops, my mistake: I actually meant the KEF Muon.  (I.e. Ross Lovegrove, not Eric Chan.)  But I also realize Muon doesn't fit my price assertion, being USD140K per pair vs. BL90 85K.  Blades did fit at 32K (plus room correction hardware).  But now you mention it, I even like the simple looks of the Blade over the BL90 (André Poulheim / NOTO).  Not that the BL90 isn't a "good" or "valid" design, just I think despite being a bubble-minimal surface, it doesn't look sleek.  BL50, designed by NOTO as well, just looks to me like its weight has slipped, as if it were getting older.  The Moment is their design too, and I thought they were trying too hard to stretch the bits-of-wood aesthetic to make the product line "of a piece".  But opinions are like you-know-whats, everybody has one.  Clearly NOTO have thought very carefully about their designs; if you have never read their exposition about the B&O speakers, see:

https://www.noto.design/journal/making-of-beolab-90/

https://www.noto.design/products/bang-olufsen-beolab90/

https://www.noto.design/products/bang-olufsen-beolab-50/

koning:

Yes! A premium brand that doesn't make a good working audio streamer.

My Essence (2nd gen) does what I need.

(I’d suppose that a BS Core would do the same and more).

I can control the daily functions with the BeoRemote One and with the Bang & Olufsen app on the dedicated iPad Mini - and with whatever iOS device that is at hand.

Works in all my connected rooms - from my 2 BV’s etc.

My setup is very pleasing.

 

My advice for you - forget B&O.....one less thing to worry about.

 

MM

It is sad but I would no longer buy new B&O. It no longer integrates with what I have, is not as good looking - the Essence is just not a good looking TV and losing the magic curtains was a bizarre decision - and they don't make an audio system. Even the elegance of the speakers is gone - the old 8000 was truly beautiful. I am still using an Avant 32, BV3 and BV5 and they are all working fine ( except the DVD on the Avant) and all work in combination with my BC2 throughout the house. I will change the TVs gradually - I thought about a BV7-55 but may well just get one of the wallpaper OLED TVs instead. The stand alone speakers are not brilliant - I have a BS2 which my daughter uses but she prefers another make for sound quality and ease of use.So it is a rather expensive paperweight at present.

The curtains are a lazy miss. My Eclipse is beautifully tucked away against our wall, and it elegantly manoeuvres itself out like Darcy Bustle, to face us in our living room. Half way through the manoeuvre it just comes on.

Loewe do the curtains very well, so should B&O. Not doing their own processing is not an excuse. It would take LG about 10 minutes to integrate them.

Funnily enough, I like/prefer the start-up with the Bang & Olufsen logo. It's the switching off that lacks elegance to me - give me curtains for that.  Otherwise, you've got to admit, the Eclipse is the best TV B&O has done for years. It just works. 

Not sure why everyone is saying its their last ever TV. If it is, they went out on a high.

mawheele:

Not sure why everyone is saying its their last ever TV....

Probably because it is....

Millemissen:

koning:

Yes! A premium brand that doesn't make a good working audio streamer.

My Essence (2nd gen) does what I need.

(I’d suppose that a BS Core would do the same and more).

I can control the daily functions with the BeoRemote One and with the Bang & Olufsen app on the dedicated iPad Mini - and with whatever iOS device that is at hand.

Works in all my connected rooms - from my 2 BV’s etc.

My setup is very pleasing.

 

My advice for you - forget B&O.....one less thing to worry about.

 

MM

You are the only one here on the forum with no complaints.

 

Dealer?