ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Hi all,
I hope it's ok with the moderators to start a new thread on a problem that I've previously posted? The last thread seems to have run dry so I figured starting up a new one might help? Please bare with me because I am not a technician of any kind, just someone trying to get his old turntable up and running again.
I have owned this Beogram 2000 Type 5240 since new. It has been in storage for 30+ years. I have taken the motor apart and lubricated the bearings by vacuum. I needed Martin's (Dillen) help to do this. I have also replaced the LIFT button holder as mine had broken, again with Martin's help. But nothing else within the turntable has been dismantled other than a new belt and cleaning and applying lubrication. Admittedly I had to disconnect the wiring running from the motor and relay to remove the motor, which caused a few issues when re-assembling, but I believe this now to be sorted.
My current problem is that for some reason the motor doesn't stop when I press the LIFT button, the platter keeps spinning. The pickup arm raises from the record (sometimes) but that's it. To stop I have to unplug from the mains.
I have checked the micro switch below the LIFT button and found no problem. I have also manually re-aligned the cam mechanism by turning the platter by hand to 'end of record' but this didn't sort the problem. I have visually checked everywhere I can see but nothing shouts as being broken or loose.
My attention is now on the relay, not least because this is the first component that receives electrical instructions from the LIFT button. I wondered if the relay could be dirty and needed a thorough clean, or more likely perhaps, a component inside the relay is faulty? I'm not sure how one would test for relay component faults?
I've already cleaned the contacts accessible through the relay opening with IPA but this hasn't improved anything. ADMISSION - I have sprayed contact cleaner into the relay but only a little. I did this some days ago and before I read a thread from Martin saying NEVER spray contact cleaner into the Relay - because it contains particulates that can ultimately cause overheating and fire (sorry Martin). The cleaner I used was Kontact 60.
I wish I could undo using contact cleaner but unfortunately I'm stuck with my mistake (the specialist I spoke to from where I bought the cleaner said it should be ok but I doubt we were talking about the same thing.
So... it is possible I have damaged the relay by using contact cleaner. But first, does my problem sound like a relay issue? Are there other areas to check?
If not, then Is there a way to test the relay, can I replace any faulty components found, or worse case swap the relay out for a working unit?
Is there a technician local enough to help identify if the relay is faulty? I'm in Southampton, Hampshire.
Thank you, Carl
Just a very quick update that might help with any best guess diagnosis - with the turntable upside down and the base cover off, i.e. looking down through the relay window, when I press LIFT I can see the uppermost contact flip across a couple of millimetres, followed by a small spark. Is this spark normal? Doesn't seem right to me.
IMPORTANTLY : I also hear a humming noise and can see the rotor through the motor grill try to move but doesn't go on to rotate, almost as if it's jammed but I know that it isn't. NB: While checking all this the drive belt was removed.
I thought I had sorted out the 'power to the motor' issue by re-connecting the wires running into the white (mains power) terminal block. I now can't help feel there was nothing wrong with my initial wiring and that the fault lies with the relay? This feeling is further advanced because the power supply issue has been an intermittent problem over several days, i.e. sometimes the motor works, sometimes it doesn't.
I realise it's next to impossible to diagnose from a distance but your best thoughts will be much appreciated. I'm sure I will need an electrician / technician at some point.
Update 1.5 hrs later (I figure it is best to provide current situation).
Regarding the relay contact and subsequent spark I mention above, plus the associated motor not running, I have just pushed the plastic black arm that is connected to the uppermost rotor contact, away from the centre spindle cam. It clicked into that 'away' position and stayed there. Now when I power on the turntable at the mains the platter rotates without me having to press the LIFT button. If nothing else this confirms I am getting power to the motor so there cannot be any problems with my connections into the white 'mains power' terminal block.
I disconnected from the mains to stop the platter spinning and put on a record. Plugged back in and the platter rotates immediately. However the pickup arm stays in its rest position. I have to do several presses of the LIFT button before the pickup arm moves over to the start of the record. It drops onto the record but only barely (I think I need to check the pickup arm weight settings as it may be too light at the stylus end).
Half way through the record I tried pressing LIFT. It needed several presses but eventually the pickup arm raised, but only slightly, it was barely clear of the record. The platter kept spinning though.
Once the 'end of record' was reached the pickup arm just stayed in the end grooves, jumping back and forth. I had to manually place it back in its rest position with the platter still spinning. As so many times now, in order to stop the platter I had to turn off at the mains.
I'm tired now so tomorrow I will adjust the 'start' and 'end' of record positions using the screw adjustments as provided.
But I'm still no where near close to understanding what's actually going on and why the LIFT button doesn't seem to talk properly with the relay. In fact I don't think there is anything wrong with the LIFT button. My gut feel is there is something amiss with the relay itself, and possibly something not right with the centre spindle cam, but prior to moving the arm as detailed above I haven't touched this area at all.
A challenge indeed. Thanks all, Carl
Hi All,
Other than Martin (Dillen) and matador43 I'm not sure who else has been following my Beogram 2000 renovation. However I thought I'd share my most recent work because it's been quite a successful day today.
Firstly, in my last reply above I stated 'rotor contact' - I did of course mean 'relay contact' - sorry for any confusion.
For full context you'd need to read the complete thread, but in summary:
I had previously rebuilt the motor, replaced the LIFT button assembly, reset the drive cone to Service Manual spec and installed a new belt.
Then I ran into some unexpected problems which I list bellow. I assumed, with some bemusement, that this work I had done was responsible for these unexpected problems. However, I think I can say that these unexpected problems do not seem to be related with my previous work (at least as far as I can tell).
Unexpected problems were:
Following my work today:
Here is what I did. NB: The technicians out there will undoubtedly identify what remedial action is more likely connected to solving my problems, but for me it is hard to pin point anything in particular. I just did as much as I could while it was all apart.
Voila - there you have it, everything is now ok - Apart from LIFT not working during record playing, the reasons for which I am not sure. I checked under the lifting cam and the thin metal rod, which I believe is the pickup arm lifting mechanism, seemed ok. Everything was in its correct place so far as I could see.
If any suggestions on why pressing LIFT during play doesn't raise the pickup arm then they'd be gratefully received!
Which of these jobs solved all but one of my problems is not known to me. I expect it was a combination, with the relay being a major contributor. I'm certainly not suggesting you do all this, and I'm even more certain that I'm in no position to be advising.
Perhaps a technician could comment on what work you should prioritise should you have similar issues to me. If the answer is 'none' then I'm ok with that (smile).
Hope to receive some pick up arm raise remedies/suggestions.
Hi,
I'm wondering if there is a certain way the lifting cam on my Beogram 2000 Type 5240 has to be installed, i.e. so that the plastic & metal swivel bits & pieces on the underside of the lifting cam, are engaged properly. Also, so that the pickup arm lifting mechanism located on the base (thin metal rod with a white round 'runner' bearing at the end), is engaged properly.
Do these cam pieces and lifting arm mechanism need to be set in a certain position before placing the lifting cam on its centre spindle? Should other parts be set in a certain position, i.e. the spindle itself etc. And should the drive belt be removed or left on? If left on should the platter 'speed selector' be set in a specific position?
My lifting cam has already been taken off and put back on. All seems ok apart from the pickup arm doesn't raise when i press the LIFT button whilst playing a record.
This fault may be due to something else but I thought it sensible to try and eliminate any installation errors when I refitted my lifting cam.
I've searched the service manual and Forum's and found some useful information, but as yet I've found nothing that answers my specific query.
It doesn't help that the lifting cam is opaque, you cant see whats going on underneath!
Many thanks for your help, Carl
Yes, the arms etc. that grips into the cam wheel will have to sit in their respective tracks.The smaller arms and actuators on the cam itself will automatically correct. (NEVER lubricate the small arms on the cam - they will only work correctly when dry and "lose").
At some point, a B&O tech note suggested substituting of the original cam wheels for certain models.I don't recall which models or why, and I don't have my notes here, but I will see if I can look it up.
Martin
Oops - I had better take off the lifting cam quickly and clean off the lubricant i'd put on.
Will be interesting to know if my model will benefit from one of these substitute cams.
Thank you Martin.
Well, it's time for a brief update.
But just as a reminder: Yesterday I had everything working other than being able to raise the pickup arm while the record was playing (via the LIFT button). Pressing LIFT during play did nothing. Otherwise on my initial pressing of LIFT, the platter got up to speed quickly, the pickup arm moved over the start position of the record, it lowered, played the whole record, pickup arm lifted at end of record and returned to its resting position. All done automatically and without fault.
Today I decided to remove the lifting cam once again so as to remove the lubricant I had mistakenly applied to the plastic and metal parts of its underside. I washed the lifting cam in a degreaser and let it air dry in the sun for 3+ hours.
After refitting the cam I ran another test. This time the platter got up to speed quickly (just as yesterday) and the pickup arm moved over to the start of the record. However, on the pickup arm lowering to the record the platter stopped (I could hear that the motor spindle had stopped spinning). I pressed the LIFT button expecting nothing to happen (as was the case yesterday), yet this time the motor started up again and the pickup arm raised, followed by the motor stopping - just as it should do.
Strange I thought? - yesterday the whole record played but LIFT did not raise the pickup arm during play. Today whole record doesn't play but LIFT does raise the pickup arm when lowered onto the record. The only thing that has changed between today and yesterday in the removal, cleaning and refitting of the lifting cam.
My current suspicions are that there is a fault with the lifting cam (although I can't see anything broken), or more likely I am not fitting it correctly. I've checked the relay armatures and they position themselves correctly into the cam (so far as I can tell). The only other remaining possibility is a little person keeps running into the room behind my back, and each time changes something different!!
Oh well, I'll keep trying. Maybe tomorrow I'll refit the cam and see what that does.
Rgds, Carl
Arms come out of one end of the start relay box.A small wire spring should sit right where they come out.Is this spring present?
https://archivedforum2.beoworld.org/forums/t/18165.aspx
Hi Martin,
Have taken a photo. Is this the area you refer to?
I don't recall seeing or losing a spring at any time.
When I removed the relay for cleaning it went back exactly as I found it. If the photo is the area you refer to and it doesn't show a required spring then it was lost long before I removed the relay and lifting cam.
Many thanks for getting back.
Thought a top down photo of relay 'may' be useful :
Just checked service manual and I can see the spring you must be referring to. It's labelled 87 on diagram with part number 2819073. I have never seen a spring that looks like this. How odd to have it disappear. I wonder if it fell off during the many disassembly and reassembly my turntable has gone through over the past few weeks? I thought I would have heard it rattling or would have found it on the work bench. I will have a good look inside the turntable and see if it is there but I'm not hopeful. Will report back.
Well I've searched everywhere the turntable has been. Crawled around on my hands & knees with a torch. Placed the turntable on each of its 4 sides without the wooden plinth and base cover in place, given it a shake but sadly nothing rattling or moving around. It's quite a large spring too (comparatively speaking) so you'd think i'd hear it or see it. Checked the wooden plinth and base cover. Very odd.
It definitely wasn't there when I removed the relay.
I will keep looking as without this spring all my efforts to date will have been a waste. I'm not sure what this spring does but it is likely to be the 'missing link' that has been causing the turntables sporadic behaviour. I'm so glad Martin you were able to identify this spring was missing.
If I find it I'll shout. else are these springs available as an individual part?
Regards, Carl
You will see from the last few threads that I have lost a spring that goes on the end of the start relay. It is thanks to Martin that I have been made aware of this spring. I have no idea when and where it was lost. I have no recall of seeing it let alone removing it.
I have continued my search, including even the remotest of places, but with no luck. This spring obviously serves a purpose but as yet I'm not sure what that purpose is. And because I haven't seen it in situ then I don't know how it is assembled. Without this spring I will be unable to eliminate its absence as the main cause for the erratic turntable behaviour I have been experiencing.
I have included a drawing of the spring with part number. Does anyone have one? Martin do you have one? Also it would most helpful to find a photo of this spring in place so that I may install it correctly?
The link I provided above has a photo of the spring mounted, perhaps that wasn't enough?
https://archivedforum2.beoworld.org/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Components.UserFiles/00.00.00.21.05.Assistance/Relay_5F00_spring.jpg
Not sure if I have one, but it's on my list of things to look for in the dungeons.
Thank you Martin,
I don't understand why but I missed the initial link you provided, my apologies.
Yes that link is very useful.
I'm going to have another look for the spring within the internals of the turntable, although I'm not hopeful. It could be lodged somewhere out of sight? I'll say if found.
Thanks for adding to list of things to look for.
No sign of this relay spring! Its loss is a complete mystery. I'd feel happier if at least I'd seen it in place prior to starting my renovation work. But I imagine it is not a component one would easily be aware of. Interestingly, I checked all the photos I have taken prior and during my many disassemblies. The few photos that show the relay do not show any spring.
However, it is what it is and despite many hours of searching (i've even gone through the contents of the hoover) it is now officially lost!!
It may turn up one day and I'll think to myself what on earth is this for, and probably put it straight in the bin.
Hopefully a replacement can soon be found.
Hi! Not sure if you solved the problem already but I had similar issues. I got my deck from a friend who was about to throw it away. My deck started instantly as I p plugged it in and wouldn't stop until I unplugged it from the mains. I found out that this was due to a fried capacitor. It's right there next to the motor.
Here's an image showing the fried capacitor: https://imgur.com/a/4xejG6d
I assumed that the capacitor was a 10nF ceramic capacitor based on the label 10n on the capacitor. Of course I'm not completely sure. But now the start/stop works. It seems though that I lost the same spring as you and now the hand does not retract.
Anyway, I hope this helps. Thanks for your post, it's been super useful as any information regarding this particular deck is hard to come by.!
Hi Tekni, Thanks for your comments. I'm no technician but I did solve the problem of the Beogram 2000 not stopping when pressing the LIFT button (updates were given in a new post). I'm not able pinpoint the exact cause but as I recall I did 3 things. 1) Ensure the micro switch below the LIFT button assembly was set correctly (in accordance with the service manual). 2) Re-seat all the wires that go into the white multi-connector adjacent to the motor (including the capacitor). 3) Reset the start relay contacts housed in the clear plastic relay box adjacent to the central cam (in accordance with the service manual). I strongly suspect the main culprits were the LIFT button micro switch (as I previously had to remove mine), and the start relay contacts. I think the multi connector connections were an unlikely cause in my case.
As far as my pickup arm acting erratically, that was fixed by fine adjustments off the start relay contacts to ensure they were either open or closed when the relay armatures were in a specific position against the Cam (as shown in the service manual), AND of course inserting a new armature spring. I had to make a new spring from a photo that was kindly supplied, which wasn't too difficult (took 3 attempts). I've now glued the spring in place! I have the photo I used and some spare sprung wire if you need any.
My Beogram 2000 did get a motor re-build (bearings re-lubricated via vacuum infusion) along with the lubrication of other moving parts. It is now working as it should. A lot of effort and fair amount of cost but worth it!