ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Hi everyone
I have a BG6000 and BG4002, the BG6000 runs a rebuilt MMC20EN with an aluminium cantilever and micro line stylus (from a company called Garret Bros in Australia, used on their P77i cart), the BG4002 runs a stock standard MMC20EN.
The rebuilt EN has always had more upper level detail than the stock EN due to a better stylus profile.
I was pretty happy with the rebuilt EN as a my everyday cart until I heard a friends BG4002 with a 'new old stock' MMC20CL he purchased from the US a few weeks ago.
We compared the CL to my rebuilt EN on his system and the CL just had a sweetness to the top end which the rebuilt EN does not have, plus it showed less simbilance, I am expecting this is due to the sapphire cantilever being more rigid than my aluminium.This has got me thinking about an upgrade, I posted an add on the Wanted section for a CL however have been looking on eBay and running through some old posts to get the low down.
What are the options these days? I saw some posts from 2008/2009 which seemed to indicate the SMMC20CL has a lovely sound but is a little more forward in the top end, perhaps almost harsh, there were also indications that they might be able to be ordered from Soundsmith with a slightly different more laid back sound profile, there were also some threads about the SMMC20EN being much better than the original EN and also some issues over cantilevers which were off centre.
I know many people have also purchased the original MMC20CL off ebay with good success, these MMC20 carts seem less likely to develop issues with stiff suspension than the later MMC1-5 carts.
So a few questions;
1. Has anyone had issues with the MMC20CL and stiff suspension over the years?
2. For those who purchased SMMC20CL's, how have they stood the test of time since you purchased them?
3. For those who have both a SMMC20CL and a MMC20CL, which do you prefer and why?
4. Would a SMMC20EN come as close performance wise to a MMC20CL?
5. Has anyone actually ordered a SMMC20xx cart from Soundsmith with the more 'relaxed' sound profile mentioned in some older posts?
6. If anyone has a MMC20CL they are looking to sell, please PM me or reply to my post in the wanted section.
I am happy to spend some decent money on getting a good original CL or a sound smith CL however I would like the sound smith one to be as close to an original CL as possible in terms of sound profile given I am using the tables in a complete B&O 70's system (BM2200 BVS-75)
Any info and answers you could give me would be so much appreciated.
Drew
Hi Drew,
I happen to have an MMC20CL from eBay, as well as an SMMC20EN from Soundsmith.
The SMMC is my favourite overall, because it is a lot clearer in the upper frequencies. The CL has the edge for tracking ability but is is a very smooth sounding cartridge! I paid 30 pounds for mine in original box with accessories and in mint condition, not even dirty at the tip. It was two years ago.
The Soundsmith is not that well made in my opinion, it's black, and the cantilever looks crude compared to original B&O ones. But it does deliver for my money.
Jacques
Hi Jacques
what's with the dirty tips? Can they be cleaned? One I looked at had a brown tip.
Well it could just be a light artifact. But yes they can be cleaned. Do not pay silly money. Sellers are often very optimistic because of eBay's preposterous price tags. An MMC is not worth a punt if it is worn.
The one you are probably watching -22? - looks fine, but will it ever sound any good?
All a matter of taste. I too have a collection of 20CLs and a SMMC20EN. I also have a couple of cartridges retipped with a shibata stylus by Axel. The CLs actually differ quite a bit but have the smooth sound described above. They are definitely temperature sensitive - much better warm. The shibata cartridge seems less sensitive and has a similar detailed but warm sound. The SMMCEN is far more modern sounding - much more treble - almost CD like in clarity but I personally find it tiring to listen to for any extended time.I have not heard the softened version. The styluses on the SMMC cartridges are totally different to the B&O designs - and interestingly the diamonds are orientated 45 degrees differently to the B&O designs. Smaller diamonds as well.
The Soundsmith cartridges are all based on the MMC1-4 design using more modern materials. The SMMC20 range cleverly takes the SMMC1-4 and positions it in the bigger shell and has a small piece of circuit board on the back attaching the 4 contacts to an adapter to allow connection to the older type arm. This gives the impression of slight Heath Robinson design but is in my view a clever adaptation of an existing design to allow wider use. The market for the MMC20 range is clearly small and completely new cartridge would be uneconomic or ridiculously expensive. Soundsmith should take huge credit for catering to this market with a cutting edge design, which is hand made. The Voice cartridge is the ultimate version if one has the funds!!
Axel seems to be doing a roaring trade in retipping older MMCs and comes highly recommended.
Peter
Here is a picture from the auction, see the darker tip. My friends CL has a completely clear white cantilever.
Seller claims less than 100 hours. Current price is $200 AUD which is about $160 american dollars, perhaps 120 euros.
Hi Peter
can Axel turn an EN into a CL with sapphire cantilever and contact line stylus?
most of his offerings on his website appear to be aluminium with shibata
Yes I saw the picture. Seems fine to me. Mine looks like that, with the yellow glue.
You can turn any MMC into any MMC, because the generators are all the same!
I understood about the generators, I wondered if Axel had the sapphire cantilevers and the same contact line stylus.
I was thinking that with many of the stylus profile developments of the 80's we might be able to do better than the MMC20CL these days...
Andrew
Yes he has the sapphire ones.
He did do sapphire cantilevers for the MMC2 but I am less sure about the 20CL. He can offer a contact line stylus on an aluminium cantilever or a Shibata stylus.
Soundsmith do a contact line stylus on a ruby cantilever and the innards use more modern magnetic materials.
Peter: He did do sapphire cantilevers for the MMC2 but I am less sure about the 20CL. He can offer a contact line stylus on an aluminium cantilever or a Shibata stylus. Soundsmith do a contact line stylus on a ruby cantilever and the innards use more modern magnetic materials.
Axel repairs all my MMC2's and MMC20CL's with contact line diamonds on sapphire cantilevers. You only have to ask him to repair anything to the spec you require and he will do it.
Regards Graham
Hi graham
how do they sound? As good as the original CL?
drew
Andrew: Hi graham how do they sound? As good as the original CL? drew
I couldn't tell the difference, so I sold the Axel refurb 20CL to another Beoworlder. He is delighted with it. Since I stopped selling 4000/4002/6000 turntables some months ago my main business with Axel has been MMC4/2 types.
In my own BG6000 Quad, I use a NOS 20CL that I bought as part of a batch of 6, from a retired B&O dealer, some time ago.
So I purchased the one I was watching on eBay.
Collected it this evening, gave it a bit of a clean. Set tracking weight and it's sounding fantastic on the BG6000 quad. Apparently it's done well under 100 hours and not used for many years.
Compared to my rebuild the upper end is very smooth. The new CL it's a little more relaxed in the top end and not as 'in your face' as my rebuild which almost seems to extract more detail on some pressings that the CL does, however on many albums I notice the CL just shines a bit more.
very happy with my purchase!
Very happy for you Drew! Excellent bargain then
Somwhere, I have an article written about the 20CL. They actually showed the frequency response of the cl at 15 degrees C and then at 20 degrees C. The higher temperature produced a better top end response and this effect was reproducible. I used to play mine with a light shining onto the cartridge at close range and it did honestly make a difference. Luckily time has stopped me hearing these frequencies but I would be fascinated to hear if the younger members can still notice the difference! (I am afraid that rules you out Graham!)
The MMC6000 did not seem to have the same effect - I had thought it must have been the suspension but would be happy for any other theories raised.
I will have a look around, I know with the lid closed on the BG6000, after a few discs it is quite warm inside so I think that will probably get me to where I need to be :)
Regards
Hi everyone. As a follow up Axel informs me he doesn't have the sapphire cantilever and recommends the boron or aluminium as a replacement.
andrew