ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
The Babies have arrived, installed and running!
The courier arrived with a two man team with this huge plastic wrapped box on a pallet and trolly.
Up the stairs, in the apartment, pallet removed and it was time to contemplate the next move as the couriers departed!
Huge box, but thank goodness no shipping or other damage - they're faultless, absolutely mint and beautifully finished! :D :D
The packaging was excellent and very well thought through to help prevent shipping damage.
Not wishing to make mistakes or have a slip/accident damage etc, I really took my time in unpacking and setup, and thought about every move before executing it.
Interestingly, all the leads are very good quality - but no sign anywhere of audiophoolery - just good common sense and solid engineering as one would expect from a firm with the reputation of B&O for science lead products and R&D.
The speaker outlets on the V1 are all RJ45, 8 pin/8 connector; one plugs in the RJ45 to 8 pin DIN lead into the RJ45 socket on the V1, and the other end into the DIN powerlink socket on the back of the speaker, found after removing a small cover, in which resides the mains socket, switches for left, right, or line, and environmental position - wall, corner or free, as well as another DIN socket to allow daisy chaining to the other speaker; simply set the switches to tell which speaker to play left, and which to play right and you're done.
After checking that everything was as it should be, it was time to switch on and setup speaker groups and levels etc.
The V1 allows different speaker groups for different functions, turning off or on the relevant speakers as needed, and one can set individual distances and levels as well as combinations of speakers for the different groups saved.
The surround sound processor permutations and sound tailoring options are particularly extensive, and far beyond what one finds in a current Yamaha or Sony for example - I can see myself spending quite a bit of time digging down in all the advanced menus later on.
To get things running, I setup the default TV group to just use the active speakers in the TV as per usual, i.e. stereo (Lab 9's off); another group I called Cinema with the V1 now configured in this group to be the centre channel, in conjunction with the Lab 9's all running, and lastly, another group I called music, where the Lab 9's run, and the V1's speakers are off.
The value of the V1 in terms of the surround sound processor alone is mind boggling - as I've said elsewhere, it has more in common with a professional device than a consumer item - but the payoff is in the flexibility and ease of use once everything's set up and configured, to give maximum versatility and intuitive operation to the lucky owner.
So, once set up (which I did with a tape measure for distances and an SPL level meter for matching speaker volumes) one can change between speaker modes at the press of a button, and the speakers just switch on or off as required, and with the relevant distance and level settings preset by the user.
I can see though why B&O offer a home visit/consultation to do the setup of their AV systems for the uninitiated though - if you had no prior audio experience or were just clueless, you'd probably want someone else to set it up for you.
Audiophile mythology has it that speakers take eons to run in; I've read on B&W literature that the mechanical stresses from manufacture can take approximately 15 hours to settle down, and temperature effects can cause the sound to 'change' for up to a week. B&W also state that anecdotal evidence that suggests much longer periods of running in, is mainly down to the user getting used to the sound rather than any inherent change in the speaker per se.
B&O say nothing about 'running in' at all, and doubtless some of their customers would crank it to the max straight out of the box.
However, I like to err on the side of caution, so apart from 65db of pink noise in setup, the first couple of hours I just played some quiet Orchestral (Grieg) at Granny levels for a start, and then after about 3 hours, brought the volume up to still quiet-ish, but otherwise moderate but not loud levels.
Fortified with yet more coffee! I sat through the 2 + hours of my demo playlist that I'd used in the in-store demo and afterwards replayed on the ESSony/SBL system.
There's no doubt - I don't think I'll need to be doing much in the way of carefully level matched AB's with the SBL's to pick differences to be honest - unlike amps and CD players the differences are quite marked and obvious - as the sound is in another league again.
Similar to what I noted in the shop demo, the resolution is substantially higher, and with it very noticeable gains in clarity, detail and the markedly natural presentation of vocal and instrumental timbre over my now previous ES Sony/SBL system. This is one very, very natural sounding loudspeaker.
Transient response, again as noted in the shop demo, is much more precise and accurate in the way it 'tracks' musical dynamics and with it the sense of involvement in a musical performance.
It's very early days; I've had them running for 5 1/2 hours now, and notice some things I didn't in the shop; the top end is exceptionally clear and natural, but no hardness, harshness, glare, grit, shout, edge or excessive brightness to be heard thus far - the sound is exceptionally clear, with outstanding reproduction of tonal timbre, and yet smooth and relaxing to listen to.
The sense of bass weight and extension imbues the sound with a sense of majesty and easy effortlessness that the ES Sony/SBL's could never match.
I'm finding that even listening at low to moderate levels, the sound has a real sense of scale and presence, and the listening is very involving yet very easy on the ear - there is no sense of listener fatigue after nearly six hours now whatsoever.
I'd have to put that down to active operation and the much lower distortion, and the scale and weight in the sound also means the volume doesn't have to be cranked right up to make it sound full and rich - it just is, even though it is idling along.
Soundstaging and imagining is noticeably better too, albeit that was never a strong point of the SBL, and with the new speakers crammed in front of the old to listen to them, it won't be until the SBL's are gone and I can set the Lab 9's up properly that I'll hear the full story on that point.
So, are they worth the money?
Well, as I say, it's only been a few hours, but absolutely.
It's hard to put a percentage on an sonic improvement, but I'd say about 30- 40%, perhaps more, over the Sony/SBL's. It's not as big a jump as it would be if they were Lab 5's rather than Lab 9's, but the combination of the very noticeable and worthwhile improvement in sound, plus the aesthetics and the ability to be rid of racks, and boxes that an active solution brings, adds up to a very high ownership satisfaction quota even given the formidable cost and early days as I say.
As the hours of operation build up, I'll gradually start working them harder re the volume, and also will watch a movie or two later in the week time permitting.
I've taken some happy snaps with the iphone and put them up on flickr and linked here with a 'guest pass'.
I'm sure there's ways to show the pics here directly but its been a long and exciting, albeit tiring day, and I've other technology to interest me at the moment!
So that's an early report and some pics; doubtless more to follow..
Take care and Best Wishes to all
John...
http://flickr.com/gp/90897207@N00/o47697
http://flickr.com/gp/90897207@N00/1V359Q
http://flickr.com/gp/90897207@N00/807H8C
http://flickr.com/gp/90897207@N00/v0q51b
http://flickr.com/gp/90897207@N00/v3568F
http://flickr.com/gp/90897207@N00/9pE692
http://flickr.com/gp/90897207@N00/EZ7L21
http://flickr.com/gp/90897207@N00/EuJ9zT
Looks/sounds good John! What are you using as as the source for the music through the V1?
As ever - a very thoughtful review.
I think the Beolab 9s might be affordable for me ... but I dream of the BL5s.
Do you think the 5s are 3X as good as the 9s ... or more than 3X in performance ?
PS I would really appreciate knowing what tracks you think are good standards to measure speakers by ..................
BeoNut since '75
Wow a very informative write up and i'm really glad that you like them, i look forward to seeing more pictures and maybe one of the lab9s either side of your v1.
Congrats.
Beoplay A2
elephant: Do you think the 5s are 3X as good as the 9s ... or more than 3X in performance ?
That is exactly the question I have. I have 9s and have listened to the 5s several times over the last few years. Have an in home demo scheduled for Wednesday of the 5s. Trying to decide if they really are that much better than my 9s.
Beolab 28s Beolab 9s Beolab 12-3s Beolab 1s Beolab 6000s 2 pairs Beolab 4000s Beovision 7-55 Beovision 10-40 Beoplay V1 32 inch Beovision Avant 32 inch Beosound 1 (CD player) Beosound 3000 Beosound 5 Core Essence MKII Beoplay M5
Wonderful review John!
Great review.
Probably my most desirable speaker in the B&O lineup!!
I have often contemplated 3's and 8000's and have listened to both at length and yet never bought either - I would have the 8000's as a musical pair and 3's as a start to a surround system (with always the option to move them to the rear, come better times). And yet........... the 8000's are beautiful but the 9's are funky and significantly better performing. The 8000's & 9's are timeless in design in that they remain unique but, as an Engineer, I love the function driving form of the 9's - enough said. I can't afford 9's but can't bring myself to buy the 8000's - maybe I'm not listening to the same amount of music that I used to!!
You may have noticed I didn't mention the 5's ................ as majestic as they are, not only can't I afford them but I can't afford the even bigger investment of a house with a room that not only does them justice but also can withstand their "scale". When I can the 9's can sit at the back!
So .......... lotto or redundancy then 9's for me!!
Ban boring signatures!
jkhamler: Looks/sounds good John! What are you using as as the source for the music through the V1?
Hi Jonathon
It's a slow process, but with about 120 discs done so far, I'm gradually ripping my CD collection to my Mac in ALAC, backed up to a time capsule + WD portable HD, and streaming over the network (two Apple Time capsules, two Airport Expresses) to an Apple TV3 connected to the V1 via HDMI.
Sound quality is excellent; zero dropouts, and the ease of use with an iPad etc is exceptional.
My 9100ES Sony CD/DVD/SACD player uses an iLink or IEEE 1394 aka firewire interface twixt it and the digital ES Sony amp, in addition to either SPDIF or analogue outs using it's internal high quality DAC.
I did quite a lot of matched level (with an SPL meter) comparisons in the past between the various connection methods and on both CD and SACD found the iLink connection to offer the best sound.
To my ears (albeit I haven't tried matched volume level AB comparisons) streaming from the Mac to an Apple Airport express connected via toslink to the digital Sony results in sound on par with or better than the iLink interface - in short it's extremely good.
Up till now, I've had the Apple TV3 connected to the V1 by HDMI (bought when I purchased the TV) and have listened to music streamed to it extensively on the V1 - but with the Lab 9's attached to the V1, the system really comes into it's own. I'm delighted with the sound quality and the combination of ease of use that goes with it.
Kind regards
elephant: As ever - a very thoughtful review. I think the Beolab 9s might be affordable for me ... but I dream of the BL5s. Do you think the 5s are 3X as good as the 9s ... or more than 3X in performance ? PS I would really appreciate knowing what tracks you think are good standards to measure speakers by ..................
Thank you Elephant for your most kind words
That's a difficult one.... I still dream of Lab 5's too, and would have a pair if not for the considerable cost and the need for expenditure on other items in life such as a car etc.
Do I think the 5's are 3x as good as the 9's?
It's very difficult to try and quantify sound quality on a percentage basis.
Provided I had the funds, Lab 5's are sufficiently better IMHO, that I'd go there, yes.
They've the technical advantage of the ALT lenses being on the midrange as well as the tweeter, they are an active four way rather than three way, on board bass EQ with the measuring microphone, and that 15" bass driver offers bass extension at very low distortion levels that would necessitate the purchase of a state of the art dedicated sub if one was buying separates - such as a Velodyne DD15, or an JL Fathom 13 for example.
For someone like me who is a classical music buff and for whom pipe organ is my favourite instrument, that bass response is almost worth the price of admission alone IMV - AND, there's two of them built into the speaker - no separate boxes required. Competitive speakers such as the big B&W 800D's don't offer that sort of bass extension without the DSP and formidable power that the Lab 5 can command - again you need the expense and clutter of additional subs.
No, they're devilishly expensive yes, but compared to what the alternatives are, I'd have a pair in a heartbeat had I the disposable funds.
No need to move the 9's on - re-place them to the back of the room as surrounds.
HTH
PS: I might make another thread about recordings...
markiedee: Wow a very informative write up and i'm really glad that you like them, i look forward to seeing more pictures and maybe one of the lab9s either side of your v1. Congrats.
Thanks for the kind remarks Mark
I'll try and do that later when I have things properly setup re a pic of the speakers alongside the V1
With apartment living, in a 5 x 4 metre room, the 4 metre wall with part window/balcony behind, has the V1 placed upon a B&O cabinet that is available for the BV10; it's identical in dimensions and look to the one that was a stand option for the 8-40, and I bought it to raise the height of the V1 on it's standard leaning back 'floor' stand, and to avoid dust from footfall getting in the unit with a carpeted floor. In one corner, covered, is a portable A/C unit that has nowhere else to go for the time being, and of course a pair of Naim SBL's with the Lab 9's in front - so it's all very non-designer looking and rather cluttered at present!
But there's some new cupboards and furniture coming over the next few weeks, which will free up a lot of space, as will getting rid of the separates system which takes up about 1.5 metres of wall space with two racks side by side.
Just looking at it, there's no doubt that aesthetically the V1 is a Beoplay product, and the Lab 9's a B&O product; one is hip, funky and makes an industrial design statement, and the other is just simple, elegant and timeless design. It will take me a little time I think to get used to the different look of the speaker from the SBL's - they're rectangular with sharp edges, and with their straight lines suit the 'edginess' of the V1 + cabinet, whereas the Lab 9's are softer, more rounded and almost amorphous looking by comparison.
However, with proposed room/furniture changes, and with the SBL's gone and the A/C and also a computer desk out of the way in the lounge, the Lab 9's won't need to be thrust right up alongside the V1 + cabinet, so the juxtaposition of curves and sharp lines should be more harmonious.
Paul W: Wonderful review John!
Thank you Paul - PS - I hope you didn't mind my tongue in cheek poking of fun about Audi in another thread....
Alongside my Mercedes and Apple Kit, the V1 and now Lab 9s are already, quite clearly, one of the best consumer purchases I've ever made for the blend of design, very high quality performance, and the intuitive and elegant user interface - the ownership satisfaction quota is exceptionally high.
B&O really do go out of their way to surprise and delight one - I appreciate we can all have bad experiences with brands, but thus far, from the POV of my phones, the V1 and now the Lab 9's, I've found B&O to fully live up to the advertising blurb with impeccable service and outstanding products in my experience.
valve1: Great review.
Thank you - I know I'm biased, as when something is new we're all of us in a 'honeymoon' period, but I'd be reporting issues if I found them too..
Beofan53:As always a very good and objective review. Nice photos too. Enjoy you new setup!
Enjoy you new setup!
Thank you also for you kind comments. I try and be objective as possible in my comments about HiFi/AV kit - yes, I'm biased because they're my new 'babies' but I've been in the hobby and world of music for many years, and wouldn't have got this far If I didn't think they were worth it as an overall ownership proposition.
I'm more than happy to try and stand back and look at what I own, or choices I've made, and critique it and be very open about it - nothing is perfect and we all have to accept some compromises even at the highest levels - but provided any shortcomings of a product don't raise their head unless I go right out of my way obsessively looking for them, I'm likely to be very happy in the main - which is not to say that I'm easily pleased, because I'm not - I tend to lean towards the obsessively fussy and picky owner profile at times, but try to balance that out with objectivity and a sense of realism as to what can and cannot be achieved with technology in ones life.
Thus far, B&O has been delivering, re meeting and exceeding my expectations, and in spades!
So yes, I'm absolutely delighted with the new set
Puncher: Probably my most desirable speaker in the B&O lineup!! I have often contemplated 3's and 8000's and have listened to both at length and yet never bought either - I would have the 8000's as a musical pair and 3's as a start to a surround system (with always the option to move them to the rear, come better times). And yet........... the 8000's are beautiful but the 9's are funky and significantly better performing. The 8000's & 9's are timeless in design in that they remain unique but, as an Engineer, I love the function driving form of the 9's - enough said. I can't afford 9's but can't bring myself to buy the 8000's - maybe I'm not listening to the same amount of music that I used to!! You may have noticed I didn't mention the 5's ................ as majestic as they are, not only can't I afford them but I can't afford the even bigger investment of a house with a room that not only does them justice but also can withstand their "scale". When I can the 9's can sit at the back! So .......... lotto or redundancy then 9's for me!!
Hi Puncher
I know where you're coming from with the 5's!
With a current lounge of only 5 x 4 metres, 5's might sound rather strangled in such a relatively smallish space, but I'd still have them in a heartbeat if I had the disposable funds and I'd likely say to hell with concerns about the small space to house them..... lol
But being more realistic, the 9's are a more palatable size and less of a financial hurdle than the 5's; I'm also very surprised with the sonic and soundstage scale of the 9's - they do a 'big' sound extremely well, that totally belittles their modest dimensions.
For organ fanatics like me though, nothing is likely to supplant my dreams of 5's, but the 9's so far are making the SBL's sound quite ill on very low organ bass - both in quality of sound (pitch accuracy, timbral detail) and just weight, heft and scale. Those ten inch drivers can shift some air - even at Granny levels on low organ they can pressurise the room - very, very impressive and very much the diminutive powerhouse.
Fingers crossed for a lotto win for you - they're absolutely worth the price of admission IMHO and experience of them thus far.
Looks great! The wooden thingy's behind the nine's? Your old speakers? Looks interesting if so.
Too long to list....
bayerische: Looks great! The wooden thingy's behind the nine's? Your old speakers? Looks interesting if so.
Yes, lol.. they're Naim SBL's which I bought new quite some years ago in consort with Naim electronics, since replaced with ES Sony amp and sources.
SBL is short for separate box loudspeaker; they're a two way, with an 8" bass/mid fitted in the middle box, which sits on spikes atop the upright legs of the frame, which uprights pass behind the back of the lower cabinet, and the front ones through hidden tubes inside the bottom cabinet.
The middle box housing the bass/mid has an hole with an aluminium plate mounted in the bottom; this has an acoustic resistance unit which looks like an aluminium frame full of tiny interlocking filaments like a toothbrush. The connection between the middle box and the lower cabinet is made with a rubber gasket and silcon seal; there is no mechanical coupling between the two boxes, nor is the lower box directly coupled to the frame apart from rubber bushings.
This serves to allow the mid/bass unit to act as an acoustic suspension bass loading at higher frequencies, but as the frequency lowers, it vents through the acoustic resistance unit into the lower and bigger box, forming an infinite baffle bass loading.
The top Box holds a Scanspeak tweeter; this box is mounted to the back of the frame, and again decoupled from the other two boxes - hence the SBL moniker.
The interior of all the MDF cabinets is veneered and has aluminium pads glued to various parts of the internal surfaces to act as mass dampers.
The main thrust of the design was to give an exceptionally clean and dynamic sound, with exceptional bass as regards pitch accuracy and freedom from boom or overhang.
Naim have always had a particular take on sound, and their speakers are often a little bit shy of the ultimate accolade in terms of neutrality and transparency, but have tremendous clarity, grip and drive - very much a match for Naims overall product philosophy, and not cheap either with all that mechanical complexity - around equivalent money or a little more than the Lab 9's in todays terms.
But many years later, it's time to renew the system and move to active, and I am well happy with my new set to say the least!
Kind Regards
@John : just do an A/B comparison between streaming sound to your BL9 via Apple TV connected in HDMI to the TV and via the digital out of the Airport express (using the BV11 or any other DAC, I can't remember if the BV11 has an audio digital input).
I've done this, and found that I really lose a lot of details with the Apple TV solution compared to the Airport express (use "complicated music", not a solo of guitar to try it!). The sound is not as clear and not as natural as CD source.
I was a bit astonished at first, as I thought "digital is digital", and that both devices should give me the same result... But no, it is clearly noticeable on a good setup...
Then I searched, and found : the Apple TV upsamples all sound to 48kHz. And that makes an audible difference, the signal is degraded.
If you want something more detailed about this problem, read this review : http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.qobuz.com%2Finfo%2FMAGAZINE-ACTUALITES%2FHI-FI-PRATIQUE%2FComparatif-Sonos-liaison-AirPlay163451
diisign.com
Hi John, Hahaha seriously, i don't mind you poking fun at Audi. I'm handing mnie back at the end of this year as i'm moving on career wise but the A4 Audi just WAS NOT me - it was soooooo corporate, for me very bland and unexciting to drive & sadly the B&O system in it was under performing too, which I think has been noted by B&O. I got to say after several years with MINI Coopers & Cooper S's the more business kind of cars seem very dull to me. Offer me a BMW 5 or 7 series or Audi A6 and i'd walk away - just not me. Anyway John, i'm so happy for you that you bought the speakers that you always wanted! What a nice B&O year it has been for you!!!!! Enjoy them!!!
Hi John,
Hahaha seriously, i don't mind you poking fun at Audi. I'm handing mnie back at the end of this year as i'm moving on career wise but the A4 Audi just WAS NOT me - it was soooooo corporate, for me very bland and unexciting to drive & sadly the B&O system in it was under performing too, which I think has been noted by B&O.
I got to say after several years with MINI Coopers & Cooper S's the more business kind of cars seem very dull to me. Offer me a BMW 5 or 7 series or Audi A6 and i'd walk away - just not me.
Anyway John, i'm so happy for you that you bought the speakers that you always wanted! What a nice B&O year it has been for you!!!!! Enjoy them!!!
mbee: @John : just do an A/B comparison between streaming sound to your BL9 via Apple TV connected in HDMI to the TV and via the digital out of the Airport express (using the BV11 or any other DAC, I can't remember if the BV11 has an audio digital input). I've done this, and found that I really lose a lot of details with the Apple TV solution compared to the Airport express (use "complicated music", not a solo of guitar to try it!). The sound is not as clear and not as natural as CD source. I was a bit astonished at first, as I thought "digital is digital", and that both devices should give me the same result... But no, it is clearly noticeable on a good setup... Then I searched, and found : the Apple TV upsamples all sound to 48kHz. And that makes an audible difference, the signal is degraded. If you want something more detailed about this problem, read this review : http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.qobuz.com%2Finfo%2FMAGAZINE-ACTUALITES%2FHI-FI-PRATIQUE%2FComparatif-Sonos-liaison-AirPlay163451
Interesting comments Mbee and thanks for the link.
I have both AEX gen 2 (currently connected to the digital ES Sony amp via toslink/optical for streaming purposes from the Mac) and the latest AEX for network extension, so could try it, BUT the output from the AEX's is optical SPDIF, whereas the SPDIF input on the V1 is RCA - so I would need an optical to RCA SPDIF convertor, which I'm sure such device exists, but then it may corrupt the data in some way perhaps, such as to negate any perceived advantage of using an AEX over the ATV3 as a streaming 'receiver' when connected to the V1.
But it would be an interesting AB to do especially if there is a worthwhile gain in sonics - currently the ATV3 is connected to the V1 by HDMI, so it gets used for streaming ALAC music and videos/podcasts etc from iTunes on the Mac.
Do you perchance know of such SPDIF convertors and would such a device corrupt the data signal in some way?
Many thanks
Paul W: Hi John, Hahaha seriously, i don't mind you poking fun at Audi. I'm handing mnie back at the end of this year as i'm moving on career wise but the A4 Audi just WAS NOT me - it was soooooo corporate, for me very bland and unexciting to drive & sadly the B&O system in it was under performing too, which I think has been noted by B&O. I got to say after several years with MINI Coopers & Cooper S's the more business kind of cars seem very dull to me. Offer me a BMW 5 or 7 series or Audi A6 and i'd walk away - just not me. Anyway John, i'm so happy for you that you bought the speakers that you always wanted! What a nice B&O year it has been for you!!!!! Enjoy them!!!
Hi Paul
I've always liked Audi, and think they have wonderful style, but if I was ever in a position to buy one, it'd need to be quattro - I tend to like either rear wheel drive, or four wheel drive, but not front wheel drive as much (which is not to say that I hate it or wouldn't own a front wheel drive car) as I find it always subtly corrupts the feedback through the wheel as to the vehicles driving dynamics etc
Then again, todays modern cars with either electric or hydraulic assist tend to 'mask' a lot of the road feel/feedback through the wheel anyway, regardless of which wheels are being driven, so it's a bit of an idealogical rather than real world point.
In that business, or prestige class of car, the BMW's are always a great drive, and probably the most 'sporty' overall, between them, Audi and Mercedes, but they still don't compare to the likes of even a humble Mazda MX5 when it comes to driver feedback and involvement from my considerable experience of them. The driving experience is very anaesthetised by comparison to 'proper' sports cars, given that they are otherwise sporty luxury saloons and coupes.
Anyway, going off topic...lol... Music/HiFi, design, and cars are some of my passions, so it's easy to get caught up in car analogies!
Lab 5's remain my dream speaker, with the Lab 9 being my second choice in the B&O range, but with the expense of a car and TV earlier this year, it is a bridge to far with respect to the Lab 5's. However, given my desire to complete a full B&O AV system, and move my current separates system on in the short to medium term, it made a lot of sense to go with the V1, with it's wonderful picture and sound, and the state of the art surround sound processor combined with the fully active centre speaker array able to do double duty as an centre channel speaker to match B&O's range in an AV setup. The savings made on the V1 over the then BV10 (now BV11) , also made the new Beolab 9 purchase possible; albeit whilst I like it's look, it's no-where near as elegant as an BV11 - but then it's under half the price as well - I'd expect quite a bit more from the BV11 for the money!
I also considered and evaluated some B&W 803D's, AVI ADM 40's, and some Locally available Nakamichi/Whise hybrid electrostatics with subs in an isobarik configuration.
After near 40 odd years of being involved in this hobby and as a passionate musician and classical music lover, my perception (perhaps wrongly) of some owners of B&O kit, who thankfully appear to have had no past experience of audiophool obsessions as I have, quite possibly don't realise, in audiophile terms, just how brilliant the Beolab series are.
The Lab 9, let alone the Lab 5, is a speaker to live with for a lifetime; it competes with audiophool models way above it's price range, and with nothing of the backup and service of B&O, and is an utter delight to use and live with.
People might consider me a B&O fan boy with comments like that, but I've been in HiFi as a hobby for many years as I say, and am quite confident of my viewpoint given the experience and exposure I've had to other brands and philosophies over the years.
Or to put it another way, its only been a couple of days, but the Lab 9's are already shaping up as the best HiFi product I've ever owned - period.
Kind regards and Best Wishes for Xmas
John
John: Do you perchance know of such SPDIF convertors and would such a device corrupt the data signal in some way?
You don't need to buy any expensive device, or "audiophile" stuff. What this kind of box has to do is to output an electrical signal everytime it "sees" the optic signal. This is done with a phototransistor or a photodiode, a simple, cheap electronic cheap that just acts like a switch, controlled by light. You can't have "small audio degradation" with such a device, if there is an issue, usually you have no output at all. It works in digital, so it's mainly "perfect or nothing". So if you want to try, there are plenty of options, just choose something cheap, this kind of things for instance :
http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Optical-Toslink-Coaxial-Converter/dp/B000I98ZQY
Based on your 40+ years of HiFi experience, if you had a choice between BL9 and the standard B&W grade speakers with Power Amps+ PrePro etc, which one would you select and or recommend and why? I am debating this same question for my living room music only arrangement. I recently heard BL9 and they sound great, but, have not had a chance to compare to standard speakers.
Thanks for your detailed product review and kind / positive replies.
Happy New Year
KE
Hi John WOW your BL9s have struck a chord with you - how purely wonderful when you are totally happy with something that takes some decent saving - what with KMA and his BV11 and you with the BL9s - you are truly wonderful adverts for B&O - you should be in their next catalogue!!! Very refreshing to hear of a nice purchase!
I TOTALLY agree with you on the Rear Wheel Drive and indeed the fun from little roadsters - you must must must try out a little MINI when you get the chance on the country lanes - im sure your youth will definitely come back as if by magic :)
Well done again. And a very Happy 2013!!! Should be a great year!
Paul W:....................you must must must try out a little MINI when you get the chance on the country lanes - im sure your youth will definitely come back as if by magic
I'm sorry to disagree given your support in other posts but -
a. the current Mini isn't anywhere near little and,b. the driving experience doesn't come close to either an original front wheel drive Mini or a rear wheel drive MX5!!
Pretty car (to some), that's all!
Puncher: Paul W:....................you must must must try out a little MINI when you get the chance on the country lanes - im sure your youth will definitely come back as if by magic I'm sorry to disagree given your support in other posts but - a. the current Mini isn't anywhere near little and,b. the driving experience doesn't come close to either an original front wheel drive Mini or a rear weel drive MX5!! Pretty car (to some), that's all!
a. the current Mini isn't anywhere near little and,b. the driving experience doesn't come close to either an original front wheel drive Mini or a rear weel drive MX5!!
Found myself in my Saab 9-5 alongside a parked Mini Cooper the other day, and having to look up to its windows. Taking a look at it from behind, the width must be similar to the Saab. There's nothing 'Mini' about the current Mini at all.
A neighbour who had owned an original mini until a couple of years ago was caught out when he bought a newer mini: the original fitted his garage but the new one would not fit.
Graham
Graham.
You really just want one.
A cooper S I think.
Vikinger I SOOOOOOOO DISAGREE my first ever car was a black 1986 MINI Park Lane and I kept it for a good 3 years. I had a top of the range BLAUPUNKT system in it - cassette with DOLBY C even and an electrically operated aerial!!! I loved that car!!!
But when I bought my first new style MINI Cooper in 2005, i struck me how simular but better the driving position was. I did 32,000 miles in its first year and let me tell you, the car put the biggest grin on my face!!! Apart from petrol, it's running costs were ZERO due to the 5 years TLC serving pack at £150!!!!!
The old MINI felt like a death trap at anything over 40mph & in no way would I have driven that on a motorway but new MINI simply lapped up those motorway miles!!!!
Sorry, but I think they got the new one pretty darn near to the old style just safer and faster. Both great cars just generations between them :)
And I'm sure a COOPER S would be incredible. Put it this way, i'd jump at the chance to own one again. So much fun with no running costs. They have A LOT of character!
Sorry meant to say Puncher. OH DAM< TRUST PUNCHER TO DISAGREE WITH ME AGAIN!!!!!!!
Merry Christmas old boy ;) :) :)
WOOF WOOF old boys!!!
Paul W:The old MINI felt like a death trap at anything over 40mph & in no way would I have driven that on a motorway but new MINI simply lapped up those motorway miles!!!!
Don't tell anyone (LOL) but I once drove my Mini 1275GT on the freeway where I passed all other cars as I tried to reach 90mph (which was its rated top speed) -- the other drivers were amazed as I passed them, but I think there were times when not all four wheels were on the road there was so much shaking going on ... needless to say I was around 21 at the time -- now I am just "an old boy".
Hahaha nice one Elephant! Hey, the 1275GT was a fab model. My Pappa's friend had a bright yellow one when I was a shorty!
H guys, you oughta start a new thread
Grrr! millemissen
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Kiranemmi: Hi John, Based on your 40+ years of HiFi experience, if you had a choice between BL9 and the standard B&W grade speakers with Power Amps+ PrePro etc, which one would you select and or recommend and why? I am debating this same question for my living room music only arrangement. I recently heard BL9 and they sound great, but, have not had a chance to compare to standard speakers. Thanks for your detailed product review and kind / positive replies. Happy New Year KE
Hi Kiranemmi
Many thanks for your kind words, and may I wish you and yours a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year, as indeed I do all Beoworld members and staff.
And also, welcome to Beoworld!
My shortlist of speakers started with the Lab 5 v's the likes of an 800D B&W, at the top of the tree/most desirable choices.
I already have a very good system, it being originally all Naim electronics coupled with Naim SBL speakers; the electronics have been replaced by Sony ES, but the speakers remain.
The SBL's have their flaws, as all speakers do, but by and large to step up above them to a large and/or very significant degree would require a speaker of the calibre of a Lab 5 or B&W 800D IMHO.
Having funded a TV + car earlier this year, budgetary constraints ruled them out, so my real world/affordable short list came to a pair of AVI ADM40s + subs; B&W 803D's (using my present amp and sources) or, the Lab 9's.
To my ears, having heard the B&W 803d's extensively, they would be the main competitor in this country given comparative pricing (A$12,500.00 for the B&W 803d v's A$13,500.00 for the B&O Lab 9) and availability to the B&O Lab 9. There are other exotica available, but I'm not really interested in a product with limited support, dealt with through an importer and with very limited factory backup, so the Lab 9, B&W 803D, and initially the AVI ADM40's were considered/evaluated.
As they needed twin subs as well as floor-standing speakers to get the bass extension I require for my passion for organ, placement options really ruled them out despite them undoubtedly being very good. That left me with the Lab 9's v's the B&W 803D's to consider, and as you have similar thoughts, I'm happy to share mine with you.
Speaking personally, there are a whole lot of issues that come into the actual buying decision of a pair of expensive loudspeakers, particularly when you already have good kit.
So, and first up, on paper... a look at some of the pros and cons of the design aspects...IMHO of course.
B&W 803D's are a magnificent speaker IMHO.
The cabinets are made out of pressed and glued multi-layer plywood, to form a curved shape, which, along with the interior form of bracing used (the matrix construction) helps ameliorate internal standing waves reflecting back out through the drivers (bass in the instance of the main cabinet, as the midrange is housed in it's own compartment within the main compartment of the cabinet, and the tweeter housed separately again on top) and attenuating cabinet resonances and readout to a very low level indeed.
The drivers are all very high quality - Rohacell, an aerospatial foam is used as a sandwich between carbon fibre for the bass units; the midrange FST or fixed suspension transducer, is an exceptional Kevlar midrange as it does not use an atypical rubber surround; rather the cone sits on a compressed foam ring, so there is no rubber surround to reflect standing waves back into the cone and add distortion, and the tweeter is of course a vacuum deposited diamond, housed in an alloy tapering tube atop the main cabinet.
Additionally both the tweeter housing, and the housing for the midrange driver are decoupled from the main cabinet by the use of a gel substance which is semi-fluid within a rubber casing, called isogel. Passive crossovers are all very high quality and close tolerance units.
The Lab 9, features a cabinet that is made of composite materials - the best I've been able to research is that this is a combination of engineering plastic, fibre glass and resin - similar I am lead to believe as the construction methods Wilson Audio use in their speaker range. Certainly, as a photo from the service manual shows, the interior is very well braced indeed; I am lead to believe apart from the bracing moulded into the cabinet, there is also a steel or aluminium brace across the interior of the lower cabinet as well.
Driver selection is reputedly a blend of Dynaudio and Scanspeak - B&O do not state specifically which drivers are used in the Lab 9's, and to date I have not been able to ascertain this.
So, my thoughts - and it is only thoughts, because substantiating facts are hard to find, is that the 803d may well have the better drivers, and the slight advantage perhaps of driver/cabinet mechanical decoupling, and the cabinet of course offers very high quality wood veneers for a more traditional look.
However, as far as actual cabinet readout re bass resonances etc, and of the plywood/matrix construction v's the composite materials of the Lab 9, I've not been able to find any comparative measurements - but some on the Lab 9, where the results were largely below audibility, and of no real world concern.
From there, things start to swing in favour of the Lab 9's on paper IMV.
Using composite materials means that B&O can engineer the cabinets of the Lab 9 to form a slight ellipse in plan view, and cone in front and side elevation. This means that, along with the cloth trim, there is going to be little issue with standing waves reflecting from a driver on to a flat baffle, which in turn sum with the drivers output and add distortion to it - this is an atypical design issued with flat baffle speakers, which is one of the advantages of course in the B&W design when you spend ever more money and step up to the 802 or 800 where the midrange driver is in a separate curved sphere - thus neatly avoiding this problem - which though, the 803D still has with it's flat baffle mounted midrange driver, and one neatly avoided by the Lab 9 with it's cone/elliptical shape that using composite materials allows.
Next, we have fully active operation in the Lab 9's using Class AB amps for mid/tweeter, and an ICE power Class D for the bass. From any technical POV by which you assess it, active is better than passive - all other things being equal as regards quality of speaker cabinets, drivers and amps etc.
Naim and Linn in their heyday always had active amplification at the top of their product ladder; albeit a very expensive journey in multi-amping, multi-cabling, and multi-racking to house all the electronics, as their speakers are not generally designed with internal amplification, and it was with my SBL's that I first heard the considerable performance jump over passive operation that active operation allowed, and indeed had I not discovered and ventured into movies and AV in the home, I would almost have certainly upgraded my then Naim/SBL system to full active operation.
In brief, active operation allows much lower distortion; an improvement in resolution and transient response over passive operation, and in the case of the Lab 9, some unique DSP signal EQ'ing with the ABL or Adaptive Bass Linearisation which both extends the bass response and protects the driver from mechanical overload, and the thermal protection for the drivers, and an environmental position switch to attenuate the bass by 2db and 4db to allow for either freestanding, wall or corner placement, which makes placement and tuning to a room much easier than with a passive speaker.
And lastly on the Lab 9 - the ALT lenses on the tweeter.
The benefit of the ALT lenses is two-fold - the most common one ascribed is the lack of needing to sit rigidly in a sweet spot at the head of an equilateral triangle to hear the optimum sound as regards stereo imaging and soundstaging etc.
The other one though, is how speakers behave in rooms, and the benefits that the ALT lenses convey.
All moving coil/cone speakers 'beam' at high frequencies, and to a large degree in the midband; only in the bass could it be said that the output is truly frequency and amplitude response even, and in an omnidirectional manner. I owned a pair of B&W DM2a's from new for 20 odd years, and like many speakers of the day they came with individual measurements including a polar response - the output of the speaker ostensibly in plan view in a 360 degree horizontal dispersion pattern.
For instance a tweeter might have an on axis response of +/- xDb, but over a very narrow angle of perhaps 10 degrees, whereas the midrange might be 60 degrees or more where the driver adheres to it's amplitude/frequency response specifications, but as you go more and more off axis, so the response in terms of frequency and amplitude starts to lobe and vary all over the place.
In a conventional speaker, such as the 803D, the optimum listening experience will be at the head of an equilateral triangle, and listening on axis to the speaker for the best/most accurate frequency/amplitude response. However, like all such speakers, the off axis response from the drivers, that will vary considerably in amplitude/frequency response from the on axis plot, will reflect off room boundaries and arrive at your ears millseconds after the direct waveform, and aside from adding a sense of reverberant space, colour the sound because of those frequency and amplitude variations from the on axis waveform.
The second advantage of the ALT lens, is that the output of the tweeter will be more or less amplitude and frequency response even, over a dispersion/polar response of around 180 degrees - not 10 - so the off axis information arriving at your ears having bounced off the boundaries etc, is going to be considerably less uneven and coloured than with a conventional design.
In the case of the Lab 5 which has lenses on the midrange as well as the tweeter, I find the timbral information conveyed, to be amongst the very best - as in most natural and accurate 'real life' sounding, - that I've ever heard from any speaker type with perhaps the exception of electrostatics - Quad 989's for example.
As to the listening....
B&W 803D's have a magnificent sound - the treble with that diamond tweeter is very detailed, yet almost 'sweet'; the midrange rich, full and warm sounding, yet very transparent, the sound staging and imaging very open and precise - albeit like almost all such speakers, something of a large headphone experience re spatial perspectives as heard in real life.
The bass was excellent - but almost certainly needing a lot of current and grip in the partnering amp - think expensive - as otherwise there's a tendency to a sense of bloat and softness - at least in the partnering Electroacompaniet that I heard them with - so think perhaps Classe or Krell for instance to partner them so as to get the best results from them.
Demerits? The bass unless you have the requisite amp. They're a tall speaker, just over a metre high, and would be very dominating in my room of 5 x 4 metres. Also, unless you can sit a fair way back from them, the three drivers don't coalesce into one - you can hear the individual drivers re treble, mid and bass - which means placement in rooms of medium size could be problematical. Also, ported reflex speakers can be problematical re placement; B&W supply a combination of foam bungs to try and tune the bass response to a particular environment, along with moving the speaker this way and that relative to boundaries to endeavour to tune it to the room for the best sound. Along with Bi-wiring options, this is very much a product aimed at the audiophile who enjoys tweaking and mixing and matching in my view.
Lab 9's have a magnificent sound that completely belies their diminutive size and appearance.
Memory is an unreliable thing, but doing my subjective best here, I'd opinion that the 803D is a little sweeter sounding in the treble, - that diamond tweeter is really special - but that with the ALT lenses, the Lab 9 presents spatial perspectives re sound-staging and imaging, in a more real life, more believable and less large headphone like sense IMHO, and along with the active amplification and the benefits that conveys, timbral accuracy and naturalness is extremely high - the timbral signature of voice and instruments is exceptionally good IMHO. However, despite lacking active amplification, the midrange in the 803d is exceptionally good also, and as to which has the better resolution and with it timbral detail, I'd find very hard to guess without having them side by side in a level matched, blind ABX test.
As far as the other two benefits of active operation, mainly transient response and bass control, there is no need for an ABX test - I've heard both extensively on my own music, and for the ability to portray the subtlest nuance of musical dynamics, courtesy of it's transient response, it's the Lab 9 - and with it the sense of involvement in the musical message that it brings. As far as grip, drive, pitch accuracy, timbral detail, weight and that sense of majesty in a sound that only low bass conveys, it's the Lab 9 again - with the caveat that with the likes of a Krell or Classe behind them, the 803d's may deliver comparative bass - but not otherwise IMV & E. And of course, this puts the 803D with an accompanying amp of commensurate quality, into another price bracket again as regards a total package, or solution price.
To try and sum it up.
There are technical advantages, pros and cons to both designs, and I'm never going to criticise those who would choose 803D's over lab 9's - they're a magnificent speaker, and there is certainly a 'house' sound that B&W have that is highly appealing - as I say I lived with a pair of the then 2nd from the top of the line B&W's for the best part of 20 odd years, and could not sell them - they're on permanent 'loan' to a close friend who loves them still.
However, if the measure is which speaker between the B&W803D and the B&O Lab 9 gets you closer to the 'original sound of the recording', it has to be the Lab 9 IMHO, when assessed overall IMHO.
Despite the 803's having some possible technical advantages with the drivers and driver decoupling, on engineering grounds the Lab 9's still tick my intellectual boxes more as regards active operation, ALT lenses, cone shaped cabinets, no reflex bass port, and mechanical and thermal overload protection for the drivers.
Putting that together with a product that has peerless R&D and is marketed towards the musical and movie connoisseur, in the case of the Lab 9, or in the case of the 803d that also has R&D of the very highest calibre, but is clearly marketed towards audiophiles with it's mix and match philosophy, then in the end, and along with the more domestically acceptable size and perceived technical advantages, the Lab 9 was my ultimate choice.
It's been a criticism I've oft read of B&O being all about style and no substance; sadly audiophiles don't appear to readily look beyond their prejudices and anecdotal opinion from other audiophiles - a close investigation of B&O products reveals a very different truth, one that most audiophiles miss sadly.
Apart from the technical and sonic excellence though, I would like to just say that one of the qualities that B&O gives you that you don't find in a spec sheet, or review, is what the product is like to live with.
With the Lab 9's there is no need to sit rigidly fixed in a sweet spot to get the best sound. There is no need to move the speaker a centimetre this way or that relative to boundaries to get the best sound balance in the bass, or play around with foam plugs in reflex ports; just set the environmental position switch in accordance with B&O's specs and a neat graphic in the manual showing recommended placement, and you're good to go.
There is no need to have a huge hulking box dominating a room, to have large scale and totally majestic sound.
If you're interested at all in AV or movies perhaps - no need for separate subs - the 10" drivers in the Lab 9's are simply awesome in the bass re grip, drive, pitch accuracy, timbral detail, and utter low frequency slam when that special LFE effect comes along.
There is no need for expensive speaker cables, or source interconnects, no need for cable risers to stop vibration from either floor or air getting into your cables and adding microphonic distortion to the electronic circuitry (supposedly - the facts on this like many audiphool claims are very hard to come by beyond reading up on the effects of placebo, irrational and obsessive behaviour and OCD) and indeed one can quietly and yet with positive affirmation consign all of the audiophool obsessions to the dustbin.
As I say, IMHO B&O build and market for audio and movie connoisseurs as against audiophiles; whether this will be an advantage or disadvantage is dependant upon ones approach to the hobby - speaking personally, as a 'recovering' audiophile once caught up in all these audiophile obsessions, B&O is like a breath of fresh air re the combination of (IMHO) unbeatable performance and value for the price, coupled with design and liveability re the human interface and lack of tweaking needed/encouraged, that moves the ownership satisfaction level meter to the highest level this 'ex' audiophile has ever encountered in a domestic HiFi/AV product in his life.
Whilst I've perhaps been overly long in my response, for which I apologise, I've given it a lot of thought and put some time in this post - for most of us money doesn't grow on trees, these are both expensive products, and these are decisions we'll live with for a long time - so I hope my meandering comments will be of some assistance to you. I'll be happy to endeavour to answer more specifics if you have them.
Kind regards and once again best wishes to All for a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year
Listen for yourself and then decide,if looks are important go with the lab 9s,if you want the seperates route start with linn majik 140s,linn majik dsm then a majik 6100 and cards and go activ, different league sound quality wise.at the end of the day its your choice.
Johns review does more for me as a potential purchaser of the Beolab 9, than all the arty advertising and trendy pics. If only this material could find it's way into the HIFI media.
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
Chris Townsend: Johns review does more for me as a potential purchaser of the Beolab 9, than all the arty advertising and trendy pics. If only this material could find it's way into the HIFI media.
Thank you for your most kind words Chris - much appreciated.
There is always a risk of boring people when writing very long and in-depth posts, so I try and be mindful of my audience so to speak, but felt that it might be helpful to make as an objective, fair and balanced assessment as I could, which naturally involved some length of writing, to endeavour to help those who might face similar choices between top tier passives such as the B&W 803D, and top tier actives such as the Lab 9's - but also in part because B&O is often patronisingly dismissed by audiophiles, mostly without any good reason apart from prejudice, anecdotal comments touted as fact, and ignorance to be honest, and I wanted to lay out some of the technical and sonic advantages of the B&O designs that many audiophiles either miss or just gloss over.
Thanks again for your kind words, and all the Best for a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year!
John....
Dom
2x BeoSystem 3, BeoSystem 5000, BeoSystem 6500, 2x BeoMaster 7000, 2 pair of BeoLab Penta mk2, AV 7000, Beolab 4000, BeoSound 4000, Playmaker, BeoLab 2500, S-45, S-45.2, RL-140, CX-50, C-75, 3x CX-100, 3x MCL2 link rooms, 3x Beolab 2000, M3, P2, Earset, A8 earphones, A3, 2x 4001 relay, H3, H3 ANC, H6, 2014 Audi S5 with B&O sound, and ambio
Hi John
Thanks for that fantastic review! And I really like when you compare the speaker against each other in a really objective way.I have a pair of 9's connected to my BV7, and my BM5 is also collected to my BV7 using SPDIF.I recently just bought a CD (24Bit, 96KHz) from Linn Records (Dawn Langstroth), a very nice recording, and when I listen to the music from the 9's, I somehow really "feel" the music. The speaker is just playing the music so "stresless".And when I then look at the size of the speaker, then I am really impressed of what they are able to deliver. Design is a matter of taste, but for every day, I just love the design more and more. They are kind of so "non-speaker-like", like like so many other B&O speakers.
Br.