ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
I asked the question, what is the best Bang & Olufsen amplifier and Peter said the Beomaster 4400 was his favorite. You don’t have to tell me twice, so I immediately ordered one from a trusted source in Missouri.
My new Beomaster 4400 is now in as-new condition (I have NO doubt) and will shortly be headed my way.
The question that I pose is out of sheer confusion in that Peter stated that he really couldn’t tell the difference between amplifiers, saying speakers make the real difference. I briefly looked for the thread with the quote, so my recollection may not be exactly what Peter stated, but oh my goodness, I can really tell the difference and I am NO expert.
This evening I was listening to my BeoCenter 9000 at volume and it sounds remarkably like my Beomaster 2400….. it REALLY does. OK, the overall sound quality is slightly better, but in either case, the sound is unremarkable. It is neither good nor bad…. pleasing but in a boring fashion.
This contrasts to the incredible difference I hear between these two amps and the Beomaster 4500.
Perhaps it has more to do with the aging process and my 4500 is doing better than the 9000 or the 2400…. but I doubt it.
I can’t wait to compare the 4400 to my existing B&O family of components.
Jeff
Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century, S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase, B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder
The 4400, 6000 and 8000 (Beocenter 7000 series included) has very similar output stages. I have come to dislike the Beomaster 6000 as the equalizer-section really lets it down IMO. It's great sounding at lower levels but loosing the quality after '30' on the volume control; the sound has way too much mid frequency content to correct (still in my opinion.)
The 4400 on the other hand is very balanced with the 'Linear'-button depressed, the Beomaster 8000 has the similar 'filters'-feature - The preamplifier part of the 4400 is a piece of ingenuity.
I think you'll be happy with the 4400, it really is in a whole other class than the 2400 and 4500
Vinyl records, cassettes, open reel, valve amplifiers and film photography.
Hi Søren,
Well this is very good news, but I think you missed the point of how very different the sound quality is between the Beomaster 2400/BeoCenter 9000 and my most favorite amplifier, the Beomaster 4500.
Many times I have tried, but words absolutely fail me to properly describe the superb sound, warm and mellow, yet crisp in the upper end, of this marvelous amplifier.
I only agreed to purchase the 4400 based on Peter’s recommendation and have zero doubt that I will be delighted.
I too am sure that you will love the 4400. When stating that I cannot hear the difference between amplifiers, I would qualify this by commenting that this would be more at the lower volume levels when no part is reaching its maximum limits. I am quite surprised you 4500 is so good as this is not a powerful amplifier really and is related to that in the 9000. It is actually rated rather lower in power! It is very similar to the amplifier in the ML/MCL converter which I confess is one I have never liked! I used one to replace a Beomaster 7000 is my MCL system and the dynamics are simply not as good.
However one does get good and bad models and yours is clearly a golden one! It is however designed and good at driving difficult loads as it was meant for a 6 room MCL system and from reading your comments in the past, this may well be one of the features that causes it to impress you.
I look forward to your comments on the 4400! Have you read Tim's review yet?
Peter
Hello Peter,
I agree, I likely have a quirk, a special oddity in my Beomaster 4500.... as I do a most used MMC20CL cartridge which is far superior to a NOS one I purchased. No sense questioning it, better to suit back and enjoy, as I will.
I am truly excited waiting for the 4400 to be shipped.... I know I will be pleased.
As for Tim's review, could you kindly point me in its direction?
Thanks,
I have a little setup where I am able to flick a couple of DPDT switches to switch between amps. There is definitely a difference between some amps but it is soooo minimal, in fact if you get the volumes of a 4400 and 8000 spot on you cannot hear a difference at normal listening levels. Not so with the 6000 but not far off! I actually started doing this to test the difference between using different grades of capacitor where I found bugger-all difference :)
Olly
Hi Olly,
You know as just an aficionado of Bang & Olufsen products, I feel at a considerable disadvantage when exchanging views with people who are vastly more technically oriented than I am.
I can not and do no debate that when bench-testing amplifiers at low volume levels there is very little difference to be heard.
That said what I am experiencing is more than real and undoubtedly the result of varying degrees of electronic decay and inconsistencies within the manufacturing process.
I currently have four amplifiers and I assure you that blindfolded I could quickly tell you which amp was playing, with the exception of possible confusion between the Beomaster 2400 and the BeoCenter 9000.
My McIntosh 2255 was recently rebuilt top to bottom gratis by the factory and with its 500 watts continuous power it is capable of more volume than the others. The sound quality is beyond criticism as it is crisp and clear with plenty of bass. Truthfully, this is a flawless amplifier but I find it “cold” or perhaps impersonal might describe it better. [This is a difficult concept to communicate.]
The Beomaster 2400 impresses as it does not have the electronics to cut back power when being over-driven. The amp gets hot, but otherwise displayed no discomfort when I used it several years ago to power my collection of three sets of inefficient speakers. Even at high volume, and I really do mean high volume, the 2400 produced virtually no audible distortion. However the sound does not quite sound “real” if that makes any sense.
The BeoCenter 9000 is much the same as the Beomaster 2400 sound-wise. At times I “think” it has more “character” than the Beomaster 2400, but in truth I doubt anyone could tell the difference between these two amps. The big difference is the gorgeous design of the 9000, the array of interesting lights, and all those lovely remote control possibilities.
If I sit down on my comfortable sofa and close my eyes with the McIntosh playing, I can easily imagine the music source is located in my living room. One of the joys of sharing my equipment with audiophile friends is to do just that, have them sit down and experience the music…. without exception they leave awed.
I can not do that with either the Beomaster 2400 or the BeoCenter 9000.
Then I come to the Beomaster 4500 which by design is apparently most similar to the Beomaster 2400 and BeoCenter 9000. Regardless of this incontestable fact this Beomaster 4500 produces sound like none of the others. It is mellow, soft, romantic in a word, yet crisp in the high end. Perhaps I am going too far but the sound is almost intoxicating.
One might suggest that it is the speakers, but that is simply not true. I purchased the 4500 as a temporary replacement for my McIntosh 2255 when I sent it back to the factory to be rebuilt. True the 4500 couldn’t match the volume of the 2255, but the sound quality was vastly superior when using the 4500 as my home theater amp.
I now have it paired with S120.2 speakers and the sound quality simply blows my audiophile buddies away.
I accept that my Beomaster 4500 is an oddity, a “freak” of the manufacturing process, but if offered $10,000 for it, I would turn it down.
The Beomaster 4500 does have a distinctive sound.Although as stated here,the output stage is virtually the same as in some other units,the signal processing stage is I think unique to this amplifier?We sold many of these systems,often to musicians after home demo's.I'm alway's pleased with the sound after refurbing one these day's.
Enjoy!
Nick
Piaf: As for Tim's review, could you kindly point me in its direction?
Jeff,
The review is in the July 2012 edition of 'Hi-Fi News and Record Review'.
On the subject of comparing the 'sound' of amplifiers, this has always been a bit of a contentious subject anyway, but comparing 25-35 year old amplifiers such as the Beomasters 8000 and 4400 will almost invariably show up component degradation rather than any inherent differences between them.
I have the 4400 and 8000 - both previously owned by Peter, incidentally - and whilst I occasionally think I hear subtle differences between them using good headphones (Sennheisser HD650s), I am sure any differences are because both amps are - like me- getting on and bits are wearing out - again, like me.
Cleve
Hi Cleve,
I agree with you completely, as the differences can largely be attributed to aging and deteriorating components.
That said, I hear VERY little difference between my unremarkable Beomaster 2400 and my much newer BeoCenter 9000. Both have a decent sound, but simply not in the same league with my refurbished McIntosh 2255 and the Beomaster 4500.
The Beomaster 4500 is what I consider is an oddity, an older amplifier that has somehow resisted the passing of time (for now) and perhaps something which occurred during the manufacturing process.
In any case the sound quality is exceptional. The Big Mac has its obvious advantage in its 500 watts of power output, but it does not deliver that delicious mellow sound of the 4500.
Suffice to say I am anxiously awaiting the arrival of my totally reconditioned Beomaster 4400 to see how it compares. As opposed to buying a tired old amp on eBay, this one will be in as-new condition.
Hi,
My own Beomaster 4400, fully refurbished, sounds excellent too. Not much difference with the Beomaster 8000, just that little bit clearer and lucid. The tone-defeat feature?
My newly acquired Beomaster 2000 is very satisfying too. I was surprised, to say the least!
But to my ears, the Beolab 5000, 10 years older and having an output capacitor, sounds even better. This is hard to explain, because it should be technically inferior!
I also use MC120-2 speakers.
Oops; another timeout.
Jacques
I think a lot of the difference is due to being able to get the tone controls out of the signal path completely. No matter how carefully you adjust them to zero, they often aren't, and still have small freq response effects, plus usually a slight amount of additional noise.
One thing to note, when comparing amps, or other electronics, the ear is often fooled by small level differences which show up as quality differences not loudness differences. I usually use a voltmeter across the speaker terminals to match levels at 1K to 0.1 db or less.
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
There's a world of difference from something that was built to be linear and numerically exact tosomething that was built to sound pleasant.
Martin
Jeff: One thing to note, when comparing amps, or other electronics, the ear is often fooled by small level differences which show up as quality differences not loudness differences. I usually use a voltmeter across the speaker terminals to match levels at 1K to 0.1 db or less.
I felt the need to repeat that as it is VERY significant!
Hi Martin,
I believe you hit the “nail on the head” in that the McIntosh 2255 is linear and numerically exact, while the Beomaster 4500 is delightful to listen to.
I used to have a BM 4500 in the bedroom, but I sold it and got an Ouverture and Beolab 4000's
When I did have the BM4500 and compared it against my BM5000 and BM5500 ( all 3 do have very similar spec amps 55 to 60W stereo ) , the BM5000 was the nicest sounding of the three, Redline speakers from all three systems were also interchanged, and it was not just me, I had 4 friends round at the time, all males in their forties and one of them has a Beolab 5000 amp which he also brought round that day for me to audition, whilst the sound of the Beolab 5000 sounded very sweet, the BM5000 for me still had a certain authority and using both a CD 50 and a CD5500 as the source, it is amazing how good these separates are from B&O back in the mid eighties.
As I have never heard, let alone owned any 5000 series Beomaster I can not comment on their sound quality….. although I admire your enthusiasm.
no, just surprised how much you like your 4500 Sir
Apparently I am not entirely alone in my admiration for the Beomaster 4500, but I agree with Peter in that my 4500 is unusual. It is just so superior in sound quality to my other amps, including the magnificent iconic McIntosh 2255. The Mac is beyond criticism, but the 4500 is just so warm and rich.
Well at VERY long, long last my Beomaster 4400 is on its way to me. My seller wanted a check so that took some time and then there were annoying problems with shipping internationally.
I can hardly wait to see what all the fuss has been about. I wonder if I will feel the 4400 is indeed superior to my much beloved 4500.
I do feel that if there is a huge difference between the 4500 and all the other amplifiers that it is unlikely that the frequency response on the 4500 is flat! It would be most interesting to do a test on your collection!
Peter,
What do you mean by a frequency response being flat? (I am going to hide behind “There are no stupid questions” concept.)
I am guessing that flat is very good meaning unaltered or not coloured which certainly describes the McIntosh 2255. If this assumption is correct then the 4500 colours the music and in this case, in a way I personally find most pleasing. Sort of like an analogy between black coffee and a cup with sugar and cream.
Close or completely off the mark?
Peter: I do feel that if there is a huge difference between the 4500 and all the other amplifiers that it is unlikely that the frequency response on the 4500 is flat! It would be most interesting to do a test on your collection!
It really should be measured at the inputs of the speakers used, it'd be best if it was also measured into a standard 8 ohm noninductive resistance too.
While I wouldn't expect much difference doe a solid state amp, you never know. Certainly for tube amps, particularly single ended ones, the interaction with speakers can induce significant irregularities. I remember seeing the freq response of a high end 300B SE tube amp into an audiophile approved speaker, and it looked like a plot of the Alps.
I have a Beocenter 7002 which is in good condition. But 3 days ago, I can smell a burning scent when I was trying to fix the tape deck, but after that, it doesn't power up anymore. I can see lights, but no more functions to the buttons. Turntable turns, but the rest are not functioning. I checked the fuses, and replaced all 3, but to no avail. Please advice. Regards.
A bit off topic for this thread but which lights are you seeing ?Is it just the tapedeck that doesn't power up ?What did you fix ? And how ?
If you took out the tapedeck mech. section, you may have overlooked a gounrding wire that goesto one of the screws (the frontmost if memory serves). If that is indeed the case, it may havegone astray and shorted something.
Hi Jeff,
This Jeff is from St. Petersburg and from reading your posts I assume that you have forgotten more about electronics than I have ever known.
That said I really do hope that my (in transit) Beomaster 4400's flat response will not mirror that of the McIntosh 2255. I would be ever so much happier if it sounded like a more robust version of my Beomaster 4500.
Thank you on the prompt reply Martin.
I had to gather my attention here because i have posted a thread but gone with no reply for weeks. The light that I'm seeing is the red led balance circular dial which performs to find the FM frequency. The whole Beocenter doesn't power up in a sense that they appear to have no function which include the display (just pure black), the buttons on below the display appears to not giving any feedback, except for the TT which appear to spin when I press the Turn button, as well as the 33/45 which works perfectly. I was trying to fix the tape deck, and I did open the whole mechanism. I did not remember of any grounding wire on any of the screws. I will check them up. Any idea on where should I start? I'm a mediocre when it comes to electrical equipments but I'm here to learn.
Regards,
Rezza.
Sorry for the lack of reply but, unfortunately, many of the high posters has left Beoworld or onlyrarely post (including myself) because of technical forum problems that, still after more thana year and a change of forum software and server, hasn't been solved.
A bit difficult to diagnose from a distance but maybe you inadvertently pulled a plug somewhere ?It sounds like one or more voltages are missing so the first thing would be to check what is thereand what is not.
Maybe if you can sniff around and find out where the burned smell comes from.
Piaf: Peter, What do you mean by a frequency response being flat? (I am going to hide behind “There are no stupid questions” concept.) I am guessing that flat is very good meaning unaltered or not coloured which certainly describes the McIntosh 2255. If this assumption is correct then the 4500 colours the music and in this case, in a way I personally find most pleasing. Sort of like an analogy between black coffee and a cup with sugar and cream. Close or completely off the mark? Jeff
Exactly so! I suggest the 4500 has an almost loudness effect which can be very attractive to the ear. The BS2 MP3 player has this characteristic and on initial listening, sound warm but detailed compared to other MP3 players. However it cannot be described as very accurate. One can mimic this behaviour through judicious use of tone controls - those on the 4400 are very good - but this obviously adds another layer of electronics to the signal pathway . I am of the opinion that one should listen to music exactly the way you like though so would suggest playing if necessary!
PS I approve of your spelling of colour - nice to see standards are being kept on your side of the pond - clearly someone who can appreciate a 4400
To me the best sounds from the 4400 are clearly with tone controls defeated, and believe me this is not subtle! I wish the Beolab had the same feature!
Hi Peter,
As this thread has gone on for some time I have responded to various postings with redundant attempts to describe the unusual if not unique sound quality of my particular Beomaster 4500… and quite frankly after a time I feel that I maybe taking things too far, exaggerating if you will.
Then I turn on the amp and am completely blown away once again and I KNOW I am NOT exaggerating, not in the slightest.
I have used this Beomaster 4500 in three different houses, in different rooms, all with wildly different acoustics: High ceilings/low ceilings, hard wood floors/carpeting, etc. and no matter the local, this 4500 earns the blue ribbon…. AND with different speakers.
I don’t know what this thing has got, but whatever it is it should be cloned.
P.S. I am delighted that you noticed and approved of my spelling of the word colour. I try to please my “audience” so when writing my American friends I drop the “u.”
Hi Jacques,
I am certain that using an amp with no colouration vis-à-vis bass/treble control usage is preferable in the perfect world, however with my Linn Isobaric speakers I wouldn’t THINK of playing them without a considerable boost to the bass…. similarly I would be most unhappy playing my ancient McIntosh ML2’s without the treble boosted as they lack the upper range, pretty much in the extreme.
Fair enough!
Thing is, I get more detail and clarity, with greater depth of image, although I admit that the balance might not be perfect!
I will get back to you soon, bro Martin.
The Beomaster arrived today from St. Louis, and in remarkably nice shape.... just as promised. (I really had no doubts about this.)
I worked the night shift today, so no time to move equipment this evening.
Can't wait (just like a child) for tomorrow so that I can see what my combination of Beomaster 4400, Beogram 8002, Beocord 9000, and S120.2 speakers can do.
Well Jeff, I can tell you that with the same speakers at home (refoamed by Martin) it sounds just great!
My turntable is a 4000 though..,
Have you read Tim Jarman's article in HFN&RR ? If not PM me!
I too have a Beogram 4000 (The crown jewel of my collection), one of only a couple in all North America, but I have it connected to my McIntosh 2255 amp/Linn Isobaric speakers/McIntosh ML2 speakers.
My long awaited Beomaster 4400 arrived in excellent condition due to expert packing.
However the safe arrival did not prevent a rocky and unsetting start to the 4400 experience. I connected the 4400 to the S-120.2 speakers, Beogram 8002, and Beocord 9000 with high expectations.
What I got was a scratchy unimpressive sound and when the volume was turned up just a little, the overdrive lamp illuminated. Visions of unknown damage with shipping back to St. Louis danced about in my head.
Still I am well aware of the care my restorer is well known for and as the box was completely undamaged I decided that something must be wrong.
I disconnected one speaker to no effect, but when I disconnected the second the volume increased dramatically and the sound quality was more than satisfactory. When I pulled the speaker connector it fell apart in my hand and with a set of new cables ready to go I changed the erring cable and the 4400 performed like it should.
So what is my verdict on the iconic Beomaster 4400? Too early to tell as a long and less than desirable day at work coupled with the initial sound issued seriously coloured my impression of the Beomaster 4400.
This coupled with the fact that I was in the process of moving (now averted) and I had only one less than perfect record to play on the Beogram 8002. The Beocord 9000 did in fact manage to impress…. more than the 8002.
The lack luster Beogram 8002/MMC2 performance can be attributed to the less than perfect record and my personal opinion that these aging B&O cartridges suffer with lack of use. I believe that after a few plays the performance improves dramatically, but this is only my own view not shared by any of our experts.
FM reception suffered from lack of an antenna. I attempted to connect the FM antenna I was using with my Beomaster 2400, but it didn’t seem to fit. Does anyone know if the connector of the FM antenna fits both the Beomaster 2400 and the Beomaster 4400?
Lastly, tomorrow I will set up my all new system: Beomaster 2400, Beogram 4002, and S-45 speakers and I really need to know exactly HOW to glue the magnet in the woofer to prevent it from slipping and ruining the speaker.
Piaf: What I got was a scratchy unimpressive sound and when the volume was turned up just a little, the overdrive lamp illuminated. Visions of unknown damage with shipping back to St. Louis danced about in my head.
That's reassuring actually! Proof positive that the thing works as it should!