Are European lifestyles under threat?

Christian Christensen, you're so right... Christians are being mass- murdered in the MiddleEast. In most Arab countries they have almost been wiped out.
No matter what we think about dictators like Saddam Hussein, Ghadaffi or Assad - then the christians were protected under their regimes.
When Hussein and Ghadaffi were killed, their countries went into Chaos - and muslims started killing Each others. But most of all they started prosecuting the christians. Same thing happening in the parts of Syria where muslim rebels has taken over.
Now muslims are coming in big numbers into Europe.
What do you think will happen when they are enough??? Same as in the Middle East!!!
Just look at the areas in every big city in Europe where muslims are the majority... no respect for other beliefs - Sharia Zones - violence - crimes. Police and Ambulances are regularly attacked with stones. A taste of Things to come...
But naive Europeans are welcoming them, closing their eyes and thinking: no problems... But there are problems...BIG problems. And it is only getting worse.
Not all muslims are fanatic - but a growing number is. And as their numbers grow, the tolerance decline. In Denmark almost all hate crimes against jews is committed by muslims. A third of all rape-crimes in Denmark and Sweden is comitted by men from North Africa and the MiddleEast.
In Germany, the so-called refugees are fighting in the refugee-camps. The numbers of rape-crimes comitted by arab and african "refugees" are sky-rocketing. They are now warning girls and women to go near refugee-camps.
If you don't believe me - then Google it!!!
How can some people go on saying: "No problems"? Just because it's not happening in front of your Windows, doesn't mean it's not happening.

Circus is coming to a town near you, soon...

 

This is an incredibly interesting topic! I remember four years ago a guy that I made friends with at my gym who was from Iraq. I asked him if it was better there without Saddam and his words were "No, we've now got 1000 Saddam's!"

Paul W:

This is an incredibly interesting topic! I remember four years ago a guy that I made friends with at my gym who was from Iraq. I asked him if it was better there without Saddam and his words were "No, we've now got 1000 Saddam's!"

What a brilliant quote.  An insightful Man.

I see the French have upset the Iranian President.  He is due to visit Paris next week and asked (due to the Iranian religious beliefs) that over the meal they are having during discussions to have Halal food and no alcohol.  Now to me, that's a fair enough request.  But no, not to the French who said 'absolutely not'.  The meal is therefore cancelled.  The French seem to think more highly of their so called 'cultural rite' to to the level of complete intolerance of an understandable request by a visiting President!  So, if the European lifestyle is to be completely inconsiderate of someone else religious beliefs, it deserves to be under threat.

Dave.

 

 

Haha, Dave we ARE talking France here which is known as the most incredible place for food and the drinking of wine :)

I kind of agree with the French government on this one as France is in a bit of a bad state in terms of religion running wild isn't it!

For me, religion seems to have been raped and distorted by humans. It suppress and can be close minded. There's something so much bigger out there and that person who created everything has no prejudice against any living thing and loves everything that lives and breathes!

Dave Farr:

I see the French have upset the Iranian President.  He is due to visit Paris next week and asked (due to the Iranian religious beliefs) that over the meal they are having during discussions to have Halal food and no alcohol.  Now to me, that's a fair enough request.  But no, not to the French who said 'absolutely not'.  The meal is therefore cancelled.  The French seem to think more highly of their so called 'cultural rite' to to the level of complete intolerance of an understandable request by a visiting President!  So, if the European lifestyle is to be completely inconsiderate of someone else religious beliefs, it deserves to be under threat.

 

And what if the French president went to Iran and demanded to get Wine and Non-halal food..? A fair enough request. Do you think they would serve it???
No way! Why should we always bow Down to the religious fanatics?
Some Europeans are so "eager to please" that they always let the fanatics run the race. They are so afraid of being called intolerant, that they let the other intolerant people have it their way. We see it all over Europe - when there's enough muslims in a kindergarden or a school, then they decide the food! No tolerance for others, there. It's the muslim way - no pork - only halal food! The "good-hearted" people are so eager to please the immigrants, that they throw away their own traditions.
Funny enough, it's always the muslim immigrants that makes demands. Do you see asian immigrants demand to get served pork in the institutions???
And your last remark about the European lifestyle that deserves being under thread, tells a lot about you.
It must be hard to hate your own culture that much.

Steffen:

And what if the French president went to Iran and demanded to get Wine and Non-halal food..? A fair enough request. Do you think they would serve it???
No way! Why should we always bow Down to the religious fanatics?
Some Europeans are so "eager to please" that they always let the fanatics run the race. They are so afraid of being called intolerant, that they let the other intolerant people have it their way. We see it all over Europe - when there's enough muslims in a kindergarden or a school, then they decide the food! No tolerance for others, there. It's the muslim way - no pork - only halal food! The "good-hearted" people are so eager to please the immigrants, that they throw away their own traditions.
Funny enough, it's always the muslim immigrants that makes demands. Do you see asian immigrants demand to get served pork in the institutions???
And your last remark about the European lifestyle that deserves being under thread, tells a lot about you.
It must be hard to hate your own culture that much.

+1

Hey Steffan, please don't misquote me.

I said 'if the European lifestyle is to be completely inconsiderate of someone elses religious beliefs, it deserves to be under threat'.  Your selectively edited 'quote' of what I said is completely misleading.

I do not hate my culture and am really upset that you accuse me of this.

I cannot imagine any European leader who going on a state visit to a country which has strong religeous beliefs which includes no alcohol consumption, would demand to be served alcohol (which would be illegal in that state) as they would show some consideration to their hosts and abide by the laws of that country.

If someone visits your house for a meal and is vegetarian, would you say 'tough, I'm not, you have to eat meat in this house'?  No, I doubt it.  You would no doubt show some consideration to your guest and be accomodating.

Europe is going through a strange time with mass movements of people which is unprecedented.  Political correctness has gone overboard as has supposed Health and Safety rules preventing kids playing 'conkers' in the playground, and a host of other things.  Yes, people are fawning over religeous rites and are terrified of upsetting people in case they are accused of incitement.  It's the same when it comes to race or colour where fanatics can jump on the bandwagon at the drop of a hat and if they aren't happy about something, always turn it into a race or colour issue when most of the time it isn't, until they make it so. 

Your post seems to contain more 'hate' than anything I supposedly wrote.  Are you saying we shouldn't consider other people's beliefs?

Dave.

The main problem seems that only one side is tolerant... and that does NOT seem to be the muslim side. There seems no tolerance from muslims and this will be a very big problem for Europe, culture and all other religions in our countries.

We can be friendly and welcoming as much as we want but there's no sign of tolerance on the other side and this could be a cause to fear the future... :-(

TWG:

The main problem seems that only one side is tolerant... and that does NOT seem to be the muslim side. There seems no tolerance from muslims and this will be a very big problem for Europe, culture and all other religions in our countries. We can be friendly and welcoming as much as we want but there's no sign of tolerance on the other side and this could be a cause to fear the future... :-(

I do agree with that in part. Tolerance is a two way street but it does only seem to mainly go one way. We can't however tar everyone with the same brush which is the danger here. There are tolerant Muslims and intolerant Christians and vice-versa. There are fanatic Muslims and Christians. One white supremacist doesn't make all whites supremacist and one fanatic doesn't make all of the same faith a fanatic.

There is a danger that intolerant people (of any faith) can cause problems in any culture. It is also beholden on any member of a community, no matter what faith or origin to observe the laws of that community and country in which they choose to live (assuming they had a choice). A 'higher power' does not absolve them of that.

The radical hate preachers as far as I can see must now be more underground rather than very public as in the past. This is dangerous if that's the case and they can instil more hatred into vulnerable, mainly male followers. The extremism elements of any faith are usually not followed by the masses of that faith which is why I don't think we can generalise.

I don't think we should sacrifice the European (French) edict of equality, freedom and brotherhood but rather try to convince others of the mutual benefit of that kind of thinking.

Dave.

its a complex problem and not helped by propaganda that is pumped out on media channels like Facebook...

in my sons class there are three children who speak no English, the teacher has to carefully weigh up how she spends her time to both bring up these students to speed as quickly as possible whilst not alienating the rest of the class and as any parent the last thing I want is my child to miss out or have a substandard education. this is compounded with overcrowded classrooms and trying to meet government league tables.

but I also disagree on schooling these children separately as they need to integrate with other children and local communities so they feel that they belong.

I feel this subject is more poignant as armistice day has just passed, our forefathers fought to keep their families free from tyranny and to protect their loved ones, many of these we see are just trying to do the same...

Fortunately, children are like sponges at an early age and pick up languages very quickly. I know that from my 5 year old in a French school. That's how the brain is programmed. These kids should be integrated and will do so over time. Again this is where some compromise has to be given. Nobody wants their childs education to suffer because the teacher has to spend too much time on kids with extra needs - language, special needs etc but as you say, we cannot and should not exclude them either. We have to remember that some of the immigrants are here out of necessity, not choice due to persecution in their homeland. Good point regarding yesterday. Dave.

Several separate issues: race, religion, language and culture.

Mathematically, someone has estimated from immigrant numbers and relative birth rates that Germany  France and England could be Islamic states by 2050. So in another two generations those in the majority now could be the minority. If the new majority are governed by the lunatic fringe then where does it ultimately lead? We need to take sentiment out of what is happening. 

Graham

Islamic states, ONLY if we could not show better way of life. We have to take immigrants as equal to live here and make them to see benefits of our lifestyle. That is what I ment by adapting. As allways better and stongest will survive in long run. Religions are much like any other revolution what aims to change system, if there is no devolepment, they will corrupt and collapse. Like communism. IMO religions (including cristianity) are jammed on acient level...

If we treat refugies like "actually we wont like you to be here" and "go home", we show them noting desirable in our lifestyle. Exclusion makes soil for radical movements.

If you think just showing the Islamic immigrants a "better way of life" will change them you're dangerously naive. Remember all of the 9/11 hijackers were from well off families, had lived in the west in liberal enclaves, had been educated in western schools. If, given this kind of immersion in western liberal society didn't sway them, the lower class, ignorant masses will be worse. And "tolerance" and accommodation always works only one way with Islam, you must submit to their views and needs, not the other.

For example, a tolerant leader would make the request that he not be served alcohol at a dinner, that way he wouldn't have to compromise his religion, and his host would be perfectly fine and arrange that. As in the vegetarian example, if you were having a vegetarian over you'd make sure that they would have a full meal's worth of fare that met their dietary guidelines while still not demanding all your guests suffer privation just because one person had peculiar dietary requirements. That's not the way it works with Islam, we have this problem over here as well. Cab drivers, which part of the job description is, you drive a cab for everyone, refusing to drive people who've had any drink or who have service dogs, and then demand that they be allowed to do so for religious "freedom" reasons. The Iranian leader didn't say "oh, no alcohol for me please!" he said "no alcohol for anyone!"

Islam is not just a religion, it's a combination legal system, culture, political system, and religion wrapped up together, and damned intolerant of dissenters. And while you can always point to one or two examples of more rational adherents that don't act that way, the simple fact is the vast majority do. In this country, despite the fact most don't live in as isolated enclaves as in many European countries, and are exposed to education regarding our laws and history, a recent survey of American Muslims returned the wonderful result that almost 70% of them support replacing the Constitution, you know, that document that guarantees freedom of religion, speech, etc., with Sharia law.

The problem with most liberal western ways of thought these days is they will not act to defend their own interests, preferring instead to hide their heads in the sand as it's more comfortable. There's an old saying, originally written as a joke but all too frighteningly true now, that a liberal is someone who's so enlightened he refuses to even take his own side in an argument.One of the things I never understand is how people who fight so hard, especially over here, for things like gay rights, women's equality, and such are so supportive, and will never say anything bad (ignoring the elephant in the room) about countries and a culture that will lash or stone women for adultery (including if a woman is raped, then she's an adulterer), and throws homosexuals off roofs to their deaths, and is completely intolerant of other religions in their countries.

Europe is being overrun, long term unless you get this under control the results will not be good. Either the Islamic wave will take you to a kind of religious intolerance and constant, violent clashes with your culture and police, or, which is about equally likely I think, this will force back to the surface the never too deeply buried totalitarian and extreme elements of your culture that resulted in fascism, and led to a world war. For example, antisemitism is far more prevalent in many European countries than here in the states, and even here it's still an issue, though the Islamic populations have elevated it to an art form. So if you don't get this under control you will see, in my opinion, a battle between two extreme elements, neither of which most thinking Europeans will like.

Yes, I know that. And do not mean everything would be ok just with saying to refugees "hey look this is nice isn´t it?". I mean building barriers and practicin some KKK stuff definetly wont help. If we do that we might as well do suicside, at least it means death to European values.

At the begining I said it would be arrogant to say our way is the only way, forever. Remember european populity is imported stuff in USA,  homo sapies has owerran their predecessors in europe ect.

We will see even bigger migration as time goes because climate change, and there is notning we can do but adapt.

Orava:

Yes, I know that. And do not mean everything would be ok just with saying to refugees "hey look this is nice isn´t it?". I mean building barriers and practicin some KKK stuff definetly wont help. If we do that we might as well do suicside, at least it means death to European values.

At the begining I said it would be arrogant to say our way is the only way, forever. Remember european populity is imported stuff in USA,  homo sapies has owerran their predecessors in europe ect.

We will see even bigger migration as time goes because climate change, and there is notning we can do but adapt.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but your post above is a prime example of the attitude I referenced, being so enlightened you won't defend your way of life from destruction, which is cultural suicide. It's bad enough that many seem to share this viewpoint, what's worse is that they want to haul those who don't kicking and screaming off the cliff with them. It's bad enough to be beset by an enemy and go down fighting, but to just roll over and surrender while patting yourself on the back for being so enlightened is worse.

Interesting use of an example though, the KKK. Being that you're in Finland, what do you know about the Klan? Couldn't you find, say, a more appropriate group of violent extremists in Europe to use as an example?

Jeff:

Orava:

Yes, I know that. And do not mean everything would be ok just with saying to refugees "hey look this is nice isn´t it?". I mean building barriers and practicin some KKK stuff definetly wont help. If we do that we might as well do suicside, at least it means death to European values.

At the begining I said it would be arrogant to say our way is the only way, forever. Remember european populity is imported stuff in USA,  homo sapies has owerran their predecessors in europe ect.

We will see even bigger migration as time goes because climate change, and there is notning we can do but adapt.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but your post above is a prime example of the attitude I referenced, being so enlightened you won't defend your way of life from destruction, which is cultural suicide. It's bad enough that many seem to share this viewpoint, what's worse is that they want to haul those who don't kicking and screaming off the cliff with them. It's bad enough to be beset by an enemy and go down fighting, but to just roll over and surrender while patting yourself on the back for being so enlightened is worse.

Interesting use of an example though, the KKK. Being that you're in Finland, what do you know about the Klan? Couldn't you find, say, a more appropriate group of violent extremists in Europe to use as an example?

Hi Jeff, how would you propose we in Europe, or anywhere else 'defend our way of life'?  I also asked the question yesterday to which nobody has been able to answer, namely - what is the European lifestyle?  If i knew what I was supposed to be defending it would help me a lot.  Somehow, this seems to be becoming a let's keep Islam out of Europe thread.  What @Orave said was that doing things as practiced by the KKK (for example, lynchings) is not what we want to see or condone and definitely wouldn't help the situation.  

I don't see that anyone is surrendering, just being pragmatic.  There are limits to the number of immigrants any country can accept and that will in part be decided by politicians (God bless 'em) and available resources, jobs etc.  I am an immigrant having moved from the UK to France.  Is it OK for me to have done that, but not for a hard working Muslim who contributes to the economy?  Absolutely not.  We should be treated equally but we aren't.

Democracy is touted by those who enjoy it as the best system and have tried to impose it on other cultures that have lived without a true democracy for thousands of years.  Look at how disastrous that has been in some of the countries previously mentioned where we have interfered.  This type of interference into cultures we do not understand has led to the upsurge of extremism we were trying to avoid in the first place.  We have actually encouraged it by our very own actions - talk about self destruction.  In a way, our way of life is under threat but accelerated by our very own actions in other place.

On the whole, this is an interesting debate and a welcome distraction from what is going on in my household at the moment!  I have anarchy at home but it's coming from my 85 year old father who has Alzheimers.  Unfortunately, he seems to think that's a rash rather than a mental condition.

Dave.

 

 

Dave,

Surely there are lots of different european lifestyles. Mine does not currently involve someone else instructing my daughter / granddaughter etc to marry in a certain way, wear a hijab, follow a particular faith (all faiths, whilst comforting traditions, probably came from inventive minds wanting to control others but that's another story.) Jeff's point is that we politely acommodate cultures and faiths that, as part of their faith, will destroy our own. Aetheists are not acceptable in their world either. 

Graham

vikinger:

Mathematically, someone has estimated from immigrant numbers and relative birth rates that Germany  France and England could be Islamic states by 2050.

Who is the 'someone' and what are is the basis for their mathematical 'estimate'? Without evidence to back up the claim I'd simply put this down as tabloid style scaremongering.

vikinger:

So in another two generations those in the majority now could be the minority. If the new majority are governed by the lunatic fringe then where does it ultimately lead?

Wouldn't this 'lunatic fringe' you mention be the same group that most of the refugees are currently fleeing from in fear for their lives?

There's a lot of criticism levied in relation to a lack of willingness to integrate by immigrants, but the hostile nature of many of those who levy this criticism must surely be a contributory factor in this regard. One can't exude a 'them and us' attitude and then be surprised when others decide they are not comfortable associating with 'us'.

I've worked in some very multicultural and multi-faith environments and have never once had any Muslim try to dictate how I or others should think or behave -  sadly I cannot say the same in relation to some members of 'western religions'.

Martin.

 

 

 

It's not 'Someone ' or tabloid journalism. My mistake. Just google the problem and you will find dozens of academic calculations and a variety of dates around 2050-2060. Most of the calculations are from before 2008..... before the current  problem.

And I have worked with plenty of the very nicest people from Iraq and other arab countries during my career... People who loved their countries before the west decided to improve their lot for them. 

It is all an unbelievable mess.  The Americans now see Al Qaeda as moderates in Syria, and arms supplied to them finish up with ISIS. Turkey carries out gas attacks in Syria and the west blames Assad. I just don't understand US/ NATO policies. These people are either totally incompetent or are driven by some hidden agenda.

Graham

vikinger:

Dave,

Surely there are lots of different european lifestyles. Mine does not currently involve someone else instructing my daughter / granddaughter etc to marry in a certain way, wear a hijab, follow a particular faith (all faiths, whilst comforting traditions, probably came from inventive minds wanting to control others but that's another story.) Jeff's point is that we politely acommodate cultures and faiths that, as part of their faith, will destroy our own. Aetheists are not acceptable in their world either. 

Graham

Hi Graham,

yes, that's why I asked early on about what is the EU lifestyle and the fact that we are all different, be it German, English, Italian, French etc.  All are quite unique so what is the EU lifestyle we are really talking about?

As for faiths destroying other faiths, the extremist elements also actually destroy their own too.  This is partly the problem.  They have no regard for anyone except their own desire for power and control and will destroy anyone who gets in their way - then cite religion as their defence.  It's abhorrent.  Religious beliefs should not come from the threat of a gun barrel.  Just because someone doesn't agree with your point of view should not make them a target in a civilised World.  Unfortunately, we do not live in a civilised World with poor behaviours from all faiths, cultures, countries to some degree or other.

Tolerance and acceptance has to be given and accepted freely by both parties.  Intolerance should be banned - I can't tolerate it. Seriously, nobody has the rite to tell other people what to think or do.  I hope there is an answer to this issue as it isn't going to get better soon and won't just go away.

Dave.

 

 

Just Wait till Turkey join the EU....As its only a matter of time And what do you think will happen under the freedom of eu movment?...

Dave Farr:

Hey Steffan, please don't misquote me.

I said 'if the European lifestyle is to be completely inconsiderate of someone elses religious beliefs, it deserves to be under threat'.  Your selectively edited 'quote' of what I said is completely misleading.

I do not hate my culture and am really upset that you accuse me of this.

I cannot imagine any European leader who going on a state visit to a country which has strong religeous beliefs which includes no alcohol consumption, would demand to be served alcohol (which would be illegal in that state) as they would show some consideration to their hosts and abide by the laws of that country.

If someone visits your house for a meal and is vegetarian, would you say 'tough, I'm not, you have to eat meat in this house'?  No, I doubt it.  You would no doubt show some consideration to your guest and be accomodating.

Europe is going through a strange time with mass movements of people which is unprecedented.  Political correctness has gone overboard as has supposed Health and Safety rules preventing kids playing 'conkers' in the playground, and a host of other things.  Yes, people are fawning over religeous rites and are terrified of upsetting people in case they are accused of incitement.  It's the same when it comes to race or colour where fanatics can jump on the bandwagon at the drop of a hat and if they aren't happy about something, always turn it into a race or colour issue when most of the time it isn't, until they make it so. 

Your post seems to contain more 'hate' than anything I supposedly wrote.  Are you saying we shouldn't consider other people's beliefs?

Dave.

Talking about misquoting, you are the master!!!

Am I saying we should not consider other people's beliefs??? NO!

If I invite guests, that are vegetarians, I would serve them vegetarian food - but if they demand that I and all the other guests should eat vegetarian, because they get offended by looking at meat - then I would ask them to stay away!
Same thing goes for alcohol. I respect if my guests do not drink alcohol...But if they want to stop me from serving wine for my other guests, then they are not welcome.
You turn everything upside Down. You say that the french president is intolerant, because he would not accept the demands from the Iranians...
What a bunch of BS!  Nobody would force the Iranians to drink wine! This is about the guests deciding what the host should serve!
This is the guests being intolerant, if they cannot accept eating dinner with others, because those others is drinking wine.

And you are blaming me for hate! Where do you see any hate in the post that I wrote above??? You are a really sad person!

Btw: There must be something special about the Euopean lifestyle, since all the muslim immigrants are coming here - and not the other way around.

riverstyx:

vikinger:

Mathematically, someone has estimated from immigrant numbers and relative birth rates that Germany  France and England could be Islamic states by 2050.

Who is the 'someone' and what are is the basis for their mathematical 'estimate'? Without evidence to back up the claim I'd simply put this down as tabloid style scaremongering.

vikinger:

So in another two generations those in the majority now could be the minority. If the new majority are governed by the lunatic fringe then where does it ultimately lead?

Wouldn't this 'lunatic fringe' you mention be the same group that most of the refugees are currently fleeing from in fear for their lives?

There's a lot of criticism levied in relation to a lack of willingness to integrate by immigrants, but the hostile nature of many of those who levy this criticism must surely be a contributory factor in this regard. One can't exude a 'them and us' attitude and then be surprised when others decide they are not comfortable associating with 'us'.

I've worked in some very multicultural and multi-faith environments and have never once had any Muslim try to dictate how I or others should think or behave -  sadly I cannot say the same in relation to some members of 'western religions'.

Martin.

 

 

 

As it probably is easier for you to question other peoples postings, than it is for you to use Google to look for information, then I will help you finding information. A Little about muslims "tolerance".

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

- and about those "refugees" "fleeing in fear of their lives" .... Most of them are not refugees, but migrants. Bad behaving migrants:

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6527/migrants-rape-germany

-and quote the Turkish president: “PM Erdogan: The Term ‘Moderate Islam’ Is Ugly And Offensive; There Is No Moderate Islam; Islam Is Islam,”

Please let's not resort to personal attacks. It's an emotive subject and there are strong views on all sides but allowing the discussion to deteriorate into an all out argument will not persuade anyone one way or the other.

Martin.

I agree Martin. This is a fascinating debate and I think it's very easy to brand religions and people in the same boat when in reality, everyone is truly different to how the media reports. Remember the media love to scare monger and create hate. They are run by fat cat organisations that only report on one side. An example is that the other week people marched against Monsanto in over 38 countries on one given day as the USA is throwing GMO food on people. Surprisly NO news platforms report this as they have their hands in that company or are threatened. The new is a very one side affair and should be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

In contrast to this immigration, I've just been to a gym this evening and sat in a sauna were the English people from that city were talking about their way of life which included robbing from everyone down their street, streaming cars and not bothering to get off their ass to get an education. I told them that they needed their hands chopping off .I'll be totally honest that I left the place absolutely disgusted! AND THAT's A CERTAIN BRITISH BORN CLASS FOR YOU!

Steffen, I made my last post primarily in response to what you had posted in response to Dave Farr and it was made prior to seeing your response to me, but my sentiments still stand - I don't understand the need to resort to personal attacks.

Steffen:

As it probably is easier for you to question other peoples postings, than it is for you to use Google to look for information, then I will help you finding information.

Vikinger's original post that started this discussion is titled "Are European lifestyles under threat?". The question mark implies (to me at least) that this is intended as a question / discussion / debate. My response, therefore, I believe was appropriate (and not attacking in nature). Neither of the articles you have highlighted provide any data to back up the statement I questioned.

Steffen:

A Little about muslims "tolerance".

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

I'm not sure what you would like me to take away from this article - broadly speaking, these statistics seem to back up what common sense would already suggest - namely that Muslims living in more moderate parts of the world tend to have more moderate views. It is unfortunate that there is no data for Central & Western Europe as I suspect this would demonstrate this trend continuing still further.

Kind Regards,

Martin.

 

Jeff:

Please don't take this the wrong way, but your post above is a prime example of the attitude I referenced, being so enlightened you won't defend your way of life from destruction, which is cultural suicide. It's bad enough that many seem to share this viewpoint, what's worse is that they want to haul those who don't kicking and screaming off the cliff with them. It's bad enough to be beset by an enemy and go down fighting, but to just roll over and surrender while patting yourself on the back for being so enlightened is worse.

Interesting use of an example though, the KKK. Being that you're in Finland, what do you know about the Klan? Couldn't you find, say, a more appropriate group of violent extremists in Europe to use as an example?

 

Haha, I see here cultural difference, as I have seen before with US americans, and with Australians too. We just seen and think from a little bit different wiev.

No, I not rolling ower, I not going to tolerate any behaviour against my values, or should I say european humanity values. But, I do not see all migration as bad and potential threat, because exterme movemets like isis. I do disagree with any fundamental organisation violating humanrights, racist, communism, nazims(did you mean this as european kkk?), christian, islamic, sionistic, NSA ;), Any... Europe is allready mix of many different cultures, and it is going to be like that. I do not see future for us if we began to discriminate people because religion or ethnicaly. Radicals are after all small part of all muslim wolrd, touhgt noisy and dangerous. 

 

Orava:

Radicals are after all small part of all muslim wolrd, touhgt noisy and dangerous. 

 

 

Ha ha -a small part of all muslim World...

World Public Opinion: Muslim majorities agree with the al-Qaeda goal of Islamic law.
Muslim majorities agree with al-Qaeda goal of keeping Western values out of Islamic countries;
(Egypt: 88%; Indonesia 76%; Pakistan 60%; Morocco 64%)

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf

- oh, al-Queda are not radical... or...?

And how about Saudi Arabia, Iran etc. Oh - their governments are moderate...?
And what happened in Egypt when they got rid of their dictator a few years ago? They had free elections - and a majority - more than 50% voted for the islamists in the Islamic Brotherhood. Shortly after, the prosecution and killings of religious minorities started. Moderates??? Not radicals???
The Brotherhood were later removed by the military.
Look what's going on in Turkey. Would you call Erdogan a moderate?

And, oh - "a very small part of muslims in Europe are radicals..." hmm...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

Maybe it is not radical to want Sharia law in your opinion. Or maybe 40% is a "small part".

Okay chaps, this has been a very interesting thread to read with many salient points - and the usual (where world issues, politics and so on are involved) heated disagreements and spats, which I personally never feel comfortable with as members are often offended and/or misunderstood which sours any discussion or debate.

As i said, there have been some excellent points made and personally I've taken away some more things to consider when making my 'world view' on the OP's original question. Thank you to all who have contributed.

However, in light of the current happenings in France I think it's best to lock this thread as it presents itself to becoming somewhere frustration and anger can be vented, which would add nothing to the thread.  We also have to bear in mind that this is a forum created to discuss Bang & Olufsen products, and world issues and politics could support a hundred forums all day long which would all become pretty nasty places to be as it's such an emotive subject.

So, I'm going to lock this thread for people to read - just not to add to. I'm not keen to actually delete it as some very good points have been made, as mentioned, so it'll stay around for people to read. Thank you to all who posted.

Lee