ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Michael: Thats interesting to hear :). Geoff, could you say if it would be better to use WISA over PL purely sound wise? I always prefer cables to wireless if I can but power link is analog and WISA is not. Could this be a good reason to upgrade from BL9 as well?
Thats interesting to hear :). Geoff, could you say if it would be better to use WISA over PL purely sound wise? I always prefer cables to wireless if I can but power link is analog and WISA is not. Could this be a good reason to upgrade from BL9 as well?
Michael: Another thing regarding the BL9, I can hear a slight buzz from my BL9´s even from my couch, when they aren't playing music but still are turned on. Is this buzzing less evident on BL20 or is it the same?
Another thing regarding the BL9, I can hear a slight buzz from my BL9´s even from my couch, when they aren't playing music but still are turned on. Is this buzzing less evident on BL20 or is it the same?
This depends entirely on where the buzz is coming from. If the source of the problem is outside the loudspeakers (i.e. your source or maybe older Power Link cables), then BL20's will have the same problem. If the source of the problem is inside your BL9's for some reason that I can't explain, then no.
Michael: I was by the way looking at this picture from your website: http://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/bl9_electronics.jpg. You write there that the power board is not shown, but I believe that it is the power board that is shown, and not the module with ams (this would be more interesting to see ).
I was by the way looking at this picture from your website: http://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/bl9_electronics.jpg. You write there that the power board is not shown, but I believe that it is the power board that is shown, and not the module with ams (this would be more interesting to see ).
Could you point me to the page that this image is on so I can see the text? I'll double.check it. Thanks for the heads-up!
Michael: BL2 has a frequency range down to 23 hz and BL9 has a frequency range down to 30hz. Would not this mean that BL2 would perform better as a subwoofer than BL9 in at least the way that it can reproduce lower frequencies? Or is it very bad at the frequencies below 30, so the difference isn't interesting?
BL2 has a frequency range down to 23 hz and BL9 has a frequency range down to 30hz. Would not this mean that BL2 would perform better as a subwoofer than BL9 in at least the way that it can reproduce lower frequencies? Or is it very bad at the frequencies below 30, so the difference isn't interesting?
When comparing subwoofers, its not so helpful to compare frequency ranges, since these are measured at a level low enough that ABL has not yet kicked in. What is more useful is to ask how loud each one can play. If you look at the BeoVision Technical Sound Guide (here for example) you'll see a table on the last page. This tells you the automatic decision made by the television regarding whether one loudspeaker will be bass-managed to another. If you look at BL2 and BL9, you'll see that the television will not automatically remove bass from a 9 and put it in a 2. Nor will it remove bass from a 2 and put it in a 9. This means that we have measured them to have similar maximum output levels over a range of frequencies in the low-end.
Cheers
-geoff
Just a side note to the last comment from Geoff.
This goes for the BSys4-based BV's.
For the previous BV's it might be different, I guess (?)
Important - because a lot BL2 and BL9 owners have these connected to a BV7.
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Millemissen: Just a side note to the last comment from Geoff. This goes for the BSys4-based BV's.
oops. Thanks MM!
-g
Thanks for the answers Geoff!WISA:Very interesting to hear some details about how it works and that it will drop "frames" in the audio if there is signal disturbances. I think for now that cables is the way to go for me. WISA adds some power on latency I believe and while it will work, the TV and speakers will have to do more processing than necessary if I could just as well use my PL cables. BUZZ:I have Mk3 cables but I find the noise from the tweeter quite audible. It's the same from both but one of them is having new electronics fitted (and already had its tweeter replaced twice because of wrong diagnosis by the tech - it goes into thermal protection when I change sources after half an hour or so and the other speaker does not, very strange issue.) Will look and see if the new boards make any difference, but I think no. The source is Avant 55 and I am using regular Mk3 cables with short PL-RJ45 adaptors. I first had RJ45->DIN cables for BL5 but they buzzed even more I believe. BL9 inside pictures where from this page: http://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/2014/03/10/bo-tech-ribs-and-dogbones/ Subwoofers:Ah, great to know. I thought it was somewhat like that. Interesting to see that neither BL9 or BL20 will remove bass from each other either.But that BL5 would remove bass from BL2 and BL9 but not BL20. Would this mean that I would get bass both to BL9 and BL2 if I would add one to my setup? For example I might find it useful because:1) I never owned one - and that would be fun in its own2) More bass when only using the built in speakers of the Avant3) If I would like to replace the BL9´s with smaller speakers.I have many other questions but I'lll stop here, for now :P
Beolab 50, Beolab 8000 x 2, Beolab 4000 x 2, BeoSound Core, BeoSound 9000, BeoSound Century, BeoLit 15, BeoPlay A1, BeoPlay P2, BeoPlay H9 3rd Gen, BeoPlay H6, EarSet 3i, BeoVision Eclipse Gen 2 55", BeoPlay V1-40, BeoCom 6000 and so much else :)
Michael:I wouldn't be so sure the BL5 sounds a s good as BL19&BL18 actually. More sophisticated DSPs and modern technology makes a lot of difference. Geoff wasn't involved in the BL5 either, and he seems to have a better idea of what the speakers should sound like
"I can't change the laws of physics." Montgomery Scott (Star Trek Enterprise)
Updates in electronics will only get you so far. Given that the the BL5s have 15" woofers with 1000 watts each vs. the BL19 which has (2) 8" woofers with (2) 160 watt amplifiers, it's not going to be a contest in the low bass department, alone.
D
Doonesbury: Michael:I wouldn't be so sure the BL5 sounds a s good as BL19&BL18 actually. More sophisticated DSPs and modern technology makes a lot of difference. Geoff wasn't involved in the BL5 either, and he seems to have a better idea of what the speakers should sound like "I can't change the laws of physics." Montgomery Scott (Star Trek Enterprise) Updates in electronics will only get you so far. Given that the the BL5s have 15" woofers with 1000 watts each vs. the BL19 which has (2) 8" woofers with (2) 160 watt amplifiers, it's not going to be a contest in the low bass department, alone. D
I never said that either, but being able to shape the signal to the speakers design in an optimal way is probably easier than before and might give the speakers a better sound profile than before. Of course BL5 is stronger.
Michael: WISA:Very interesting to hear some details about how it works and that it will drop "frames" in the audio if there is signal disturbances.
WISA:Very interesting to hear some details about how it works and that it will drop "frames" in the audio if there is signal disturbances.
Michael: WISA adds some power on latency I believe and while it will work, the TV and speakers will have to do more processing than necessary if I could just as well use my PL cables.
WISA adds some power on latency I believe and while it will work, the TV and speakers will have to do more processing than necessary if I could just as well use my PL cables.
If you have a B&O Wireless Power Link (WiSA) transmitter, then the extra latency incurred by the WiSA Tx/Rx is accounted for. No need to worry about this.
Michael: Subwoofers:Ah, great to know. I thought it was somewhat like that. Interesting to see that neither BL9 or BL20 will remove bass from each other either.But that BL5 would remove bass from BL2 and BL9 but not BL20. Would this mean that I would get bass both to BL9 and BL2 if I would add one to my setup? For example I might find it useful because:1) I never owned one - and that would be fun in its own2) More bass when only using the built in speakers of the Avant3) If I would like to replace the BL9´s with smaller speakers.
Subwoofers:Ah, great to know. I thought it was somewhat like that. Interesting to see that neither BL9 or BL20 will remove bass from each other either.But that BL5 would remove bass from BL2 and BL9 but not BL20. Would this mean that I would get bass both to BL9 and BL2 if I would add one to my setup? For example I might find it useful because:1) I never owned one - and that would be fun in its own2) More bass when only using the built in speakers of the Avant3) If I would like to replace the BL9´s with smaller speakers.
The automatic decisions made by the Avant / BV11 / V1 regarding whether or not to re-direct the bass is entirely dependent on the particular constellation of loudspeakers in a given Speaker Group.
However, if you don't like the automatic decision made by the TV, you can always override it in the Advanced Settings menu. For example, you can just set the Bass Redirection Level to 0 dB for everything - and bass comes from everywhere... I'm not saying that this is a good idea - but you might. :-)
Michael: I have many other questions but I'lll stop here, for now :P
I have many other questions but I'lll stop here, for now :P
Yes I also think that improvements have been made in the dsp field. But it is almost like saying that beoplay a1 can match bl18 because its developed later. You can not forget that using small speakers in the bass area will result in higer distortion. The bl5 only have 0,89% distortion playing 40hz in 90db verry low that is.
Wilderwein: The bl5 only have 0,89% distortion playing 40hz in 90db verry low that is.
The bl5 only have 0,89% distortion playing 40hz in 90db verry low that is.
....and very loud that is.
Especially in a smallish room and for longer time.
Comparing the BL5 and the A1 is not fair at all - simply two breeds...for totally different purposes.
Thanks Geoff for your detailed answers and explanations. However I am a bit surprised that Bit errors turns stuff into danish but thats an entirely different thing .I'll think about my future questions and ask them when I know what to ask! I still haven't been to B&O in Struer but I have been thinking about going for years. Would be fun to discus the sounds and technology in person as well, if you are available for the factory tours.
Very interesting thread. I just read through it for the first time. I was just about ready to order a pair of 20s to replace my 9s. Reading this makes me think I should listen the the 18-19 combination as well. I think I would like the way the 18s look more than the 20s. But unfortunately I don't think I will have a chance to make the three hour drive to my dealer before the June 1 price increase dealer told me about.
I had a pair of 5s in my house for a demo a few years ago. I had them for several days. In my room, probably due to the close placement to the wall, and one in a corner, they did not sound better to me than my 9s. Wish I had a closer dealer so I could do an in home demo of both 20s and 18s-19.
Beolab 28s Beolab 9s Beolab 12-3s Beolab 1s Beolab 6000s 2 pairs Beolab 4000s Beovision 7-55 Beovision 10-40 Beoplay V1 32 inch Beovision Avant 32 inch Beosound 1 (CD player) Beosound 3000 Beosound 5 Core Essence MKII Beoplay M5
Razlaw:Very interesting thread. I just read through it for the first time. I was just about ready to order a pair of 20s to replace my 9s. Reading this makes me think I should listen the the 18-19 combination as well. I think I would like the way the 18s look more than the 20s. But unfortunately I don't think I will have a chance to make the three hour drive to my dealer before the June 1 price increase dealer told me about. I had a pair of 5s in my house for a demo a few years ago. I had them for several days. In my room, probably due to the close placement to the wall, and one in a corner, they did not sound better to me than my 9s. Wish I had a closer dealer so I could do an in home demo of both 20s and 18s-19.
BeoNut since '75
Imo it is way too early to speculate/to create rumours about a 'BL90-son'.
There is no doubt (some of) the features of the BL90 will be found in future speakers/products.
But when - and how - is the big question?
Unless you'd judge by the looks/the design, there is only one way to find out, if someone should get the BL20 or the BL18+19....
....try them out at home!
elephant: Razlaw: Very interesting thread. I just read through it for the first time. I was just about ready to order a pair of 20s to replace my 9s. Reading this makes me think I should listen the the 18-19 combination as well. I think I would like the way the 18s look more than the 20s. But unfortunately I don't think I will have a chance to make the three hour drive to my dealer before the June 1 price increase dealer told me about. I had a pair of 5s in my house for a demo a few years ago. I had them for several days. In my room, probably due to the close placement to the wall, and one in a corner, they did not sound better to me than my 9s. Wish I had a closer dealer so I could do an in home demo of both 20s and 18s-19. Not sure if was to you or Sal in another thread, however the advice / rumours was to wait for the son of the BL90 (?? coming next year ??) ... so if you're happy with your BL9s stay happy for another 12 months
Razlaw: Very interesting thread. I just read through it for the first time. I was just about ready to order a pair of 20s to replace my 9s. Reading this makes me think I should listen the the 18-19 combination as well. I think I would like the way the 18s look more than the 20s. But unfortunately I don't think I will have a chance to make the three hour drive to my dealer before the June 1 price increase dealer told me about. I had a pair of 5s in my house for a demo a few years ago. I had them for several days. In my room, probably due to the close placement to the wall, and one in a corner, they did not sound better to me than my 9s. Wish I had a closer dealer so I could do an in home demo of both 20s and 18s-19.
Not sure if was to you or Sal in another thread, however the advice / rumours was to wait for the son of the BL90 (?? coming next year ??) ... so if you're happy with your BL9s stay happy for another 12 months
It was me. But there was also talk in that thread of the new speakers being priced around Beolab 5s, around $30,000. Thus they would be at an entirely different price level than the 20s. Right now, the 20s are around $13,400. Dealer is offering me a price of $12,000. June 1st the price goes up to $14,500.
Millemissen:Imo it is way too early to speculate/to create rumours about a 'BL90-son'. There is no doubt (some of) the features of the BL90 will be found in future speakers/products. But when - and how - is the big question? Unless you'd judge by the looks/the design, there is only one way to find out, if someone should get the BL20 or the BL18+19.... ....try them out at home! MM There is a tv - and there is a BV.
Razlaw:Right now, the 20s are around $13,400. Dealer is offering me a price of $12,000. June 1st the price goes up to $14,500.
I have pretty much decided that if I am going to get new speakers, and not wait for what might be coming in the future, I will get the 20s. I recalled that I previously had a subwoofer connected to my system when I was using Beolab 1s. I also tried it with the 9s as I had it and it was connected to the system when the the 9s arrived. I liked the sound of the bass from two 9s much better than from one sub woofer. I am sure I would feel the same way about 19s and a 19. So now the decision is 20s before June 1st price increase, or wait and see what new speakers might be released.
elephant:I took the 12,000 option.
Razlaw: I have pretty much decided that if I am going to get new speakers, and not wait for what might be coming in the future, I will get the 20s. I recalled that I previously had a subwoofer connected to my system when I was using Beolab 1s. I also tried it with the 9s as I had it and it was connected to the system when the the 9s arrived. I liked the sound of the bass from two 9s much better than from one sub woofer. I am sure I would feel the same way about 19s and a 19. So now the decision is 20s before June 1st price increase, or wait and see what new speakers might be released.
That doesn't surprise me. I've heard a lot of sub/sat setups in my life, and the number which sounded as good as two fuller range speakers could be counted on the fingers of one hand. It is very difficult to properly integrate a subwoofer with satellites unless you have a lot of control over the phase, level, and freq of the crossover as well as the measurement equipment to figure out what you're actually accomplishing as you twiddle with the knobs. That plus the idea, pushed by marketing folks, that you can "put the sub anywhere!" is total bunk, placement of the sub relative to the main speakers is critical. Often to properly integrate a sub you need an asymmetric crossover, not the same freq or slope for the sub and sats, which is hard to find.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Razlaw:I wish I had a dealer close enough for in home demo. But if I order the 20s I would have 30 days to return if I was nit happy with them.
With the 30 days return (get it in writing ) option, why don't you treat it as though it were your demo? Apart from possibly shipping costs (I don't know how they're arranging it), I don't see any negatives for you Razlaw. Order the speakers, try them out for an extended period and see how they integrate into your life and make a decision.
I do understand that some folks have suggested you wait for the "son/daughter of the BL90s" but that speaker is going to be a completely different animal at a completely different price point -- with price increases and what not -- possibly at an even higher price than has been speculated here in the last few days. That being said, if you're in the market for it, it would stand to reason that you wait.
Here's what went through my mind when I got mine late last year. I was sincerely thinking about possible new speakers being unveiled which would cause me extreme buyer's remorse. In the end, it was more important to me to have a pair of speakers I could easily live with (ie. able to move around -- without help-- if I wanted to), at an acceptable price / quality / value proposition. And I had a chance to audition them multiple times at different stores, and liked what I heard.
I think you're in a smashing position to audition them in your actual home, and keep them if you decide to and call it a day. Keep us posted!
Razlaw:I have pretty much decided that if I am going to get new speakers, and not wait for what might be coming in the future, I will get the 20s.
But then the question becomes what color of 20s? Black? White? Gray? My 9s are currently white although I also have black covers for them (and blue).
I guess I need to get out the black covers for the 9s and stare at them and the white for awhile.
Jeff: Razlaw: I have pretty much decided that if I am going to get new speakers, and not wait for what might be coming in the future, I will get the 20s. I recalled that I previously had a subwoofer connected to my system when I was using Beolab 1s. I also tried it with the 9s as I had it and it was connected to the system when the the 9s arrived. I liked the sound of the bass from two 9s much better than from one sub woofer. I am sure I would feel the same way about 19s and a 19. So now the decision is 20s before June 1st price increase, or wait and see what new speakers might be released. That doesn't surprise me. I've heard a lot of sub/sat setups in my life, and the number which sounded as good as two fuller range speakers could be counted on the fingers of one hand. It is very difficult to properly integrate a subwoofer with satellites unless you have a lot of control over the phase, level, and freq of the crossover as well as the measurement equipment to figure out what you're actually accomplishing as you twiddle with the knobs. That plus the idea, pushed by marketing folks, that you can "put the sub anywhere!" is total bunk, placement of the sub relative to the main speakers is critical. Often to properly integrate a sub you need an asymmetric crossover, not the same freq or slope for the sub and sats, which is hard to find.
Thank you for the post and providing an explanation for why I have liked the system better without a sub. It helped me cross the 18/19 off the possibility list.
Razlaw:What is your opinion of the 20s?
Razlaw:I agree with you completely in that I want something I can move around easily myself. And I have the 30 day return policy in writing, both on store's web page and email confirming it would apply to the 20s. 20s would be shipped directly to me. If I wish to return, store does not need packaging, so I would just put speakers in car and make the three hour drive to store.
Some of us in the UK have moaned about the closure of local stores: in my case instead of having two stores within 30 minutes I now have to make a one hour trip. In US terms I guess a three hour drive is seen as convenient!
Graham
elephant:Love them for most of our music. I am only allowed to use loud volumes when I am alone BeoNut since '75
elephant:I am only allowed to use loud volumes when I am alone BeoNut since '75
CB: elephant:I am only allowed to use loud volumes when I am alone BeoNut since '75 Lucky you ! I am only allowed to use my BLs when I am alone...
Lucky you !
I am only allowed to use my BLs when I am alone...
When I use loud volumes on my BL5s, I am alone within two minutes
Stefan
vikinger: Razlaw:I agree with you completely in that I want something I can move around easily myself. And I have the 30 day return policy in writing, both on store's web page and email confirming it would apply to the 20s. 20s would be shipped directly to me. If I wish to return, store does not need packaging, so I would just put speakers in car and make the three hour drive to store. Some of us in the UK have moaned about the closure of local stores: in my case instead of having two stores within 30 minutes I now have to make a one hour trip. In US terms I guess a three hour drive is seen as convenient! Graham
For the time being I have a store, the only one in my state, about an hour and a quarter away. I think the next nearest store would take 2 days to get to.