ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Real question will be what B&Os cash flow and borrowing facilities are currently like?
If good, no issue, if bad and deteriorating ( as I suspect) then SR may be the only game in town. They don't need to buy 51% - they just need to offer a loan with the price being equity and board positions. Shareholders will capitulate and attempt to recover value by accepting something rather than a total loss if the company goes under.
Mr 10Percent: Real question will be what B&Os cash flow and borrowing facilities are currently like? If good, no issue, if bad and deteriorating ( as I suspect) then SR may be the only game in town. They don't need to buy 51% - they just need to offer a loan with the price being equity and board positions. Shareholders will capitulate and attempt to recover value by accepting something rather than a total loss if the company goes under.
The latest results show cash of DKK 810 million. There are no borrowings other than DKK 191 million of mortgage debt which is long term by nature. Operating cash flows were DKK 55 million positive last year, current year to date (but that's only 9 months) DKK 4.7 million negative.
The sale of the automotive business sorted any short/medium term cash and borrowing issues.
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/563128/bang-amp-olufsen-prioritises-india.html
Beolab 28s Beolab 9s Beolab 12-3s Beolab 1s Beolab 6000s 2 pairs Beolab 4000s Beovision 7-55 Beovision 10-40 Beoplay V1 32 inch Beovision Avant 32 inch Beosound 1 (CD player) Beosound 3000 Beosound 5 Core Essence MKII Beoplay M5
As some of the older markets decline so new ones open up. Excellent!
Just found this document about yesterday's announcement
Shareholder Announcement from Sparkle Roll
"Believe nothing you read and only half of what you see, let your ears tell you the truth."
Chris: Just found this document about yesterday's announcement Shareholder Announcement from Sparkle Roll
The same document we're all discussing!
Wow brand name just changed from bang & olufsen to jianhong & olufsen
I wonder what B&O feel about me (or any other customer)?
I have owned B&O audio and TV since the early 1980's and still use my Beovision 10, Beolab 6000, Beosound 3200, Beosound 1, Beosound 3) daily. Most of these of course are older products. when looking at updating / replacing them I feel that b&O have been offering me a range of solutions to connectivity problems i don't have and when investigating further find it difficult to see wha the premium pricing offers above similar solutions from Apple or Sonos for example.
I have bought a variety of Play products but have been unimpressed with the functionalty (I own both the Beolit 12 and H8's neither of which work properly). Recently B&O have made it impossible to return Play products via dealers and will only communicate via e-mail or social media. Finally I have had problems discussed elsewhere with a repair which was handled badly and now see that they want customers to pay a premium for additional 'care' that should come as standard for a high end product.
I'm left feeling that B&O don't really want to bother with me as I don't fit a demographic that will spend 10's of thousands of pounds on a bespoke installed system nor one that solely spends a couple of hundred pounds via the internet and shrugs when the product proves disposable.
So in the end I feel that I don't much want to bother with B&O right now.
Mark: I'm left feeling that B&O don't really want to bother with me as I don't fit a demographic that will spend 10's of thousands of pounds on a bespoke installed system..
I'm left feeling that B&O don't really want to bother with me as I don't fit a demographic that will spend 10's of thousands of pounds on a bespoke installed system..
Do many do that these days? I guess they do, but it must be few and far between. Most of the stuff doesn't even interconnect anyhow.
Talking of communication, British Airways is dreadful by phone or email, but incredibly good by social media. I can DM them on Twitter and they reply instantly, give good info and even call me back. Superb. It's just a new way of embracing making contact with a customer in 2016. If you get it right, it works. Long gone are the days where you should need to phone a company - I hate end users calling me. I can't get them off the phone :)
As a Dane growing up with B&O as part of my heritage,- deeply saddened!
I will never, ever buy a B&O product made in China or Turkey for that matter!
Please consider what you buy!
If not for you, then for the ones who eventually will be walking in your shoes...´(Intentional Depeche mode reference)!
Millemissen: Oh, sorry - on Wednesday the 10th, I meant to write. MM
Oh, sorry - on Wednesday the 10th, I meant to write.
MM
As the BV14 has been presented now, can we expect to see as well the Horizon and the new Beosound 1 & 2 or will we have to wait till next month at IFA?
When Jacob Jensen and David Lewis were designing for B&O the designs were both striking and related to function.
The current designs have no relation to function. There's a limit to how far you can get a stylist to play around with wooden frets, and for what purpose?
Wooden radiator grilles for cars anyone?
Graham
With the launch of the Beovision 14, I feel completely baffled. I personally like the design but I can't understand why they would release a TV with two year old specs. They completely ignored the tech standards laid down for the past year.
The lack of HDR in a supposed high end TV at the end of 2016 is crazy. What is potentially even more crazy is if the Horizon and the Avant NG don't have HDR too - B&O's entire TV range would not be up to standards that other manufacturers are offering at a fraction of the cost. If you are in the market for a 4k TV, I just don't know what would make you choose a B&O, apart from design.
@Solidsnake. Agreed. It reminds me of B&O's first ventures into HD TV's. Remember how long it took them to include HDMI's? Other TV's had them for years while B&O still fancied SCART and, if you where lucky, a DVI-socket without HDCP
BeoVision Eclipse 55, BeoPlay S8 (sub+rears), BeoPlay A9 MKII (living room), BeoVision Avant 32 DVD (retro gaming, basement), BeoLab 4000 (entertainment room, basement), BeoSound 8 (workshop), 2x BeoPlay S3 (PC), BeoPlay A1, BeoPlay H2/H3 (on the go)
Beoberg: @Solidsnake. Agreed. It reminds me of B&O's first ventures into HD TV's. Remember how long it took them to include HDMI's? Other TV's had them for years while B&O still fancied SCART and, if you where lucky, a DVI-socket without HDCP
And then they released a "HD upgrade" module for BV7's which was a ridiculous price to allow a single socket to show a HD picture, even though my dealer was telling me that the BV7 was "HD ready" when I made the purchase.
An interesting thread - I sure hope B&O monitor threads like this.
I have a few thoughts on what is best about B&O, and what is not so great but desirable:
It's the last three items on the list that B&O currently fall down on; the last item significantly. These should be pieces that are functional for decades, not replaced every few years. How can this be improved? Let me explain...
For example, B&O don't make screens but purchase high quality screens from other manufacturers, and have their beautiful designs around that. So they should be designed from the start to be upgradeable. Another example: the DVD tray in the original BV7 is still magical, and has a wow factor. This should be upgradeable to Blu-ray, then Blu-ray 3D, etc.
There are plenty of BV7s around, some being sold for really low prices. Everything about them works, but they need new screens, new players, new connectivity, new decoders, etc. So have a "re-release" whereby they can be gutted and rebuilt to the latest standards, while retaining the shell and design.
You could even have a scheme where plasma screens can be replaced by the latest LCD screens (but not yet - I think most plasmas still have years of life left).
If major items can last for decades instead of years, B&O can focus on design, at which they excel. Who cares about the internal electronics, they will be outdated before they even leave the factory floor. Allow the internals to be modified and upgradeable. At major points have a marketing "re-release" of significant iconic B&O pieces, where owners can pay to significantly upgrade screens and internals.
I won't purchase new B&O now - all I have to do is wait a few years for a really good deal because the value drops so quickly. Having a system in place for longevity will significantly enhance resale values - in fact, owners won't sell, thus driving demand back up for new pieces.
BV6-26, BV7-40, BL7.4, BL3, BL5, BS9000, BC1, ES1, Beo4, BeoPort
Nice idea but I am not entirely sure I agree this would be a sustainable business model for B&O, much as it might benefit the consumer!!
B&O products are V1-32, BS2, H95, E8 and an Essence remote.11-46 now replaced with Sony A90J 65”, Sony HT-A9, Sony UBP-X800M2 and Sony SRS-NS7.
Beer_Baron: An interesting thread - I sure hope B&O monitor threads like this. I have a few thoughts on what is best about B&O, and what is not so great but desirable: Simplicity Elegance Originality Connectivity Reliability Longevity It's the last three items on the list that B&O currently fall down on; the last item significantly. These should be pieces that are functional for decades, not replaced every few years. How can this be improved? Let me explain... For example, B&O don't make screens but purchase high quality screens from other manufacturers, and have their beautiful designs around that. So they should be designed from the start to be upgradeable. Another example: the DVD tray in the original BV7 is still magical, and has a wow factor. This should be upgradeable to Blu-ray, then Blu-ray 3D, etc. There are plenty of BV7s around, some being sold for really low prices. Everything about them works, but they need new screens, new players, new connectivity, new decoders, etc. So have a "re-release" whereby they can be gutted and rebuilt to the latest standards, while retaining the shell and design. You could even have a scheme where plasma screens can be replaced by the latest LCD screens (but not yet - I think most plasmas still have years of life left). If major items can last for decades instead of years, B&O can focus on design, at which they excel. Who cares about the internal electronics, they will be outdated before they even leave the factory floor. Allow the internals to be modified and upgradeable. At major points have a marketing "re-release" of significant iconic B&O pieces, where owners can pay to significantly upgrade screens and internals. I won't purchase new B&O now - all I have to do is wait a few years for a really good deal because the value drops so quickly. Having a system in place for longevity will significantly enhance resale values - in fact, owners won't sell, thus driving demand back up for new pieces.
Is this question not being answered by B&O? They upgraded the BV11 to BV14...
"Is this question not being answered by B&O? They upgraded the BV11 to BV14..."
The item of originality is in the original question. A sequel is hardly original?
Beo Century ,Beoplay V1, Beocenter 6, Ex-Beolit 12, Beotime , A8. Beolit 15 , Form 2i , Beolab 2000, Beoplay A3.Beosound 1
BAND'OH!: Nice idea but I am not entirely sure I agree this would be a sustainable business model for B&O, much as it might benefit the consumer!!
I am pretty sure, that it would not.
It's a dream - but a nice dream.
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Millemissen: BAND'OH!: Nice idea but I am not entirely sure I agree this would be a sustainable business model for B&O, much as it might benefit the consumer!! I am pretty sure, that it would not. It's a dream - but a nice dream. MM
why not? You can combine the modular set up with a subscription based business model. As in: you buy an awesome looking TV from us and we guarantee it will be technically (including software!) up to date for at least the next 10 years. You pay us an initial and yearly fee for that and a yearly fee to make that happen.
Even more radically you could go further and introduce a "pay for usage" business model (rather than buying and owning) that delivers optimal quality sound and vision for a monthly / yearly price.
customer satisfied because they have the reassurance from the start their TV is always technically up to date from start to finish. B& O satisfied because it has a steady revenue stream with customers that stick to the brand.
not sure what the prices would be of course, let alone (probably more important) if this is technically viable, i.e. to set up a tv in such a modular way.
Peter
PS: maybe B&O should dream and explore "crazy" / unconventional ideas a bit more in order to survive in the 21st century without losing sight of its design / simplicity / quality values / heritage.
PeterBOBP: not sure what the prices would be of course, let alone (probably more important) if this is technically viable, i.e. to set up a tv in such a modular way.
'What the price would be' - exactly that is the point!
From the technical point of view, there would be few problems in offering this.
But at which costs?
And would people want to have their tv taken away for weeks for the upgrade every year etc?
Do consider that most BV buyers are happy with their tv's as is - owners of vintage plasma BV5/9's even claim, that their BV's are better than the new ones.
A concept for the techorientated B&O nerds, but not a concept for the mainstream buyers.
Millemissen: And would people want to have their tv taken away for weeks for the upgrade every year etc? MM
fair point..... but not necessarily needed as you describe (weeks, every year)
Maybe each year a significant software update. Each two years a B&O service person updating some modules on the spot and every 5 years a factory (or local distribution center / dealer) serviced hardware upgrade, might be more acceptable for the average user.
Millemissen: Do consider that most BV buyers are happy with their tv's as is - owners of vintage plasma BV5/9's even claim, that their BV's are better than the new ones. Not sure this is true for all / most current clients: I have a V1 myself (what a wonderful TV it is!) but I cannot imagine I will keep it for the next 10 years (I like the design very much, that is not the problem). And given the messages on this forum I am not convinced others beside me not think the same. Also, potential / future clients currently not buying into B&O might be attracted. They might not buy into "beautiful but expensive and technologically not always up to date" but might buy into "beautiful and yes expensive, but always up to date" Peter
My mum used to lease a Beovision in the early 80's. It was pretty owned, but got us access to one of the only luxuries we could afford at the time.
Maybe this is a market that could be tapped with all the unwanted 7's and 8'signed?
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
Just bought an A1, just for fun. And what a great little speaker it is. Definitely will be my new Travel speaker. A2 will sadly collect dust.
Also bought a pair of the H5's. Pretty good too. My dogs chewed on the left earplug, basically destroyed it, but I managed to solder it up, so it works again. :D
But other than that... I'm not sure the new TV's excite me. Love my BV9, and with the prices they've fallen too, under 2K, I guess once mine is dead I'll just get another one "for chips". On the other hand the competitors models connected to a BS3 have crossed my mind a hundred times. Could be cool with an 80" too!
The BL90's are amazing, but I'm not sure they're 70K amazing. I mean 70K. You can do a lot with that money. Not to mention the 2-3 nice Audemars that can be added for that amount of money.
So what am I'm saying. Not too excited at the moment, besides the BL90, but I can't see them in my house, not even at 50% off! To be honest it's crazy money for a set of speakers. (To me) And my BL5's are not that far from them.
Too long to list....
I feel like I'd be planning which B&O to replace the Century for the imminent rework of the ground floor of our house but the likely system is not as clear as in the olden days! I was thinking about upgrading the V1 in the living room and using it as the hub of the AV in the dining/cooking area. However the horizon doesn't appeal so the cash waiting in my account may go on a Fiat 124 Spider.
PeterBOBP:Millemissen:And would people want to have their tv taken away for weeks for the upgrade every year etc?MMfair point..... but not necessarily needed as you describe (weeks, every year) Maybe each year a significant software update. Each two years a B&O service person updating some modules on the spot and every 5 years a factory (or local distribution center / dealer) serviced hardware upgrade, might be more acceptable for the average user
BeoNut since '75
Beer_Baron: For example, B&O don't make screens but purchase high quality screens from other manufacturers, and have their beautiful designs around that. So they should be designed from the start to be upgradeable. Another example: the DVD tray in the original BV7 is still magical, and has a wow factor. This should be upgradeable to Blu-ray, then Blu-ray 3D, etc. There are plenty of BV7s around, some being sold for really low prices. Everything about them works, but they need new screens, new players, new connectivity, new decoders, etc. So have a "re-release" whereby they can be gutted and rebuilt to the latest standards, while retaining the shell and design. You could even have a scheme where plasma screens can be replaced by the latest LCD screens (but not yet - I think most plasmas still have years of life left).
(Part of) the original post... I think $$ would preclude annual upgrades as some have suggested. My idea was more geared to upgrading older screens with modern ones, as well as gutting the internal boards and replacing with modern electronics. A substantial rebuild. Might be easier to do with old plasma > upgrade to new OLED, because they would have so much more room in the chassis.
The key would be to design from the start with modularity in mind. Not quite plug-and-play, but having an eye to future upgrade-ability. I would guess that a substantial gutting and rebuild would still involve considerable R&D costs, that needs to be amortised over an unknown number of units. One way to reduce that R&D cost is to be able to take the screen and guts from a modern BeoVision that already has the electronics R&D'd, and retro-fitting those parts into an older chassis.
I can dream, can't I?
Simonbeo:However the horizon doesn't appeal so the cash waiting in my account may go on a Fiat 124 Spider.
LOL great minds think alike! I am looking at that car or the 2012+ Boxster, with the latter being so hard to dismiss due to its great resale value against the Fiat, but I do like the new MX5 lookalike, especially the Abarth!
It's fabulous to see Fiat making the 124 again although i'm super disappointed that it's based on the MX5 - a car that I couldn't warm too. I love the feel of Fiat's. As a child, a sexy girl down my street always drove the X19. Nice car.
Band'Oh do take into account the cost of running the Boxster. Servicing and repairs. I once had a BMW 3 series and kept it for far too long. I had it for five years during my university days. It was a nightmare - £400 overtime it needed a repair, £400 for every service, nothing but stress, sadness and worry - that's when I realised buying a brand new car made sense! It was certainly worry free!
Hi Paul,
Very good points about the running of the car. I probably won't buy another car as I am very content with everything I own currently but its nice to think about it all the same. Sometimes the gratification is knowing you can buy these things if you want to, but then not actually buying them because you know you don't really need them! I love my i10 actually (Hyundai) - best car I have ever owned on so many levels.
Interestingly, I had an X19 in my younger days; bought it over a TR7, which were known to be highly problematic mechanically and rust buckets. Also had the Fiat Coupe 16V, and Peugeot 205 1.6GTi back in the early 90s and what a fab car the Peugeot was; and, it saved them from going under!
That's what B&O need to come out with, a 205 1.6/1.9GTi product equivalent that sells like hot cakes and gets them noticed again!
Razlaw:15/16 annual and fourth quarter reports are now posted on B and O web page.
Nice to see them making money again.
bayerische:Nice to see them making money again. Too long to list....
BAND'OH!: Interestingly, I had an X19 in my younger days; bought it over a TR7, which were known to be highly problematic mechanically and rust buckets.
Interestingly, I had an X19 in my younger days; bought it over a TR7, which were known to be highly problematic mechanically and rust buckets.
X19's were also highly problematic rust buckets!!
Lee
9 LEE: BAND'OH!: Interestingly, I had an X19 in my younger days; bought it over a TR7, which were known to be highly problematic mechanically and rust buckets. X19's were also highly problematic rust buckets!! Lee
My brother had an eye for these things, he had a Spitfire mkIV, followed by an X19 (or sewing machine as it was universally known) and then a sh! tty brown TR7 with vinyl roof.
Suffice to say I never took him with me when I went to buy a car!!
Ban boring signatures!
Puncher: 9 LEE: BAND'OH!: Interestingly, I had an X19 in my younger days; bought it over a TR7, which were known to be highly problematic mechanically and rust buckets. X19's were also highly problematic rust buckets!! Lee My brother had an eye for these things, he had a Spitfire mkIV, followed by an X19 (or sewing machine as it was universally known) and then a sh! tty brown TR7 with vinyl roof. Suffice to say I never took him with me when I went to buy a car!!
I remember back when I worked selling stereo gear, it was a Fiat centric shop, the owner had an X1/9, and two other guys had 124 Spyders. Beautiful car, marred by the most awkward driving position I've ever seen, and horrible rust and mechanical issues. The X/19 was worse. I remember we started a pool as to whether the owner would be in the Fiat or dropped off by his girlfriend each day, because the car was in the shop! There was a garage in town known for working on every kind of import, they had a band painted on the building at the top with all the different makes listed, MG, Triumph, Porsche, and the Fiat name was crossed out in bright red paint in a huge X over it. Guess he got fed up with them. Our tech was sitting at a stop light in his 124 once when the fuel line shredded and, owing to how it was routed, dumped gas on the distributor, BOOM, minor explosion that blew the hood off the car! Fortunately it put the fire out too.
My wife has a 2001 Miata that has had exactly one thing break on it, 3 years in the camshaft position sensor went, other than that, nothing in 15+ years and over 90,000 miles, even has the original convertible top. I was kind of excited to see there would be a Fiat version with different engines until I read that the Fiat 500 is both the least reliable and most un-crashworthy car sold in the US. I had hoped they would have improved more.
But, a good choice I think avoiding the TR7, probably not as big a problem in the UK but over here in any hot climate, like Florida where I lived, they had a reputation for overheating and warping the heads as well as other mechanical and rust issues. Back then I had a VW Scirocco, not quite as sexy but very reliable. Wish I still had it, what a fun little car it was.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
LOL it's true, the X19 was a terrible rust bucket also! Although, to be fair it wasn't too bad mechanically. Perhaps I was a lucky owner but it didn't cost me any more than any other car to run and maintain back in the day. I loved the targa top on it and of course the pop up headlights. They were mini TR7s in many ways but I'll be honest, it was always the TR7 I preferred, just couldn't afford one and the 2.0l insurance was much higher for me as a youngster than the 1.5l X19. My dad had the TR3A, TR4 and TR6 and hated the TR7/8s so never bought one, and it turned out neither did I! Of course any of these cars are all classics now! Good old days motoring... everything's far too reliable these days!!! :)