ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Ever since I saw how much the BeoCom range has shrunk I wondered whether the pervasive use of mobile phones at home had caused the dwindling sales of Beocom phones so I have an idea hear me out.
What do you guys think if B&O produces a speaker phone system that connects to the mobile phones via Wifi or bluetooth? That doubles the duty of an active desktop loudspeaker system that plays music but also can take and receive calls which also has the added versatility of being a bedside alarm clock/radio? I think a few companies have already put this idea into production but B&O can definitely give the public their take on this. Price wise should match the Beolit 12 but outdo in performance terms since it will be mains powered.
Even better if there is an option to link a wireless handset to the station. This will be doing the public a good service too because I bet quite a few of us are paranoid about talking on mobile phones for extended periods (aka moi) . And people will be able to talk with vibre or one of those free phone call app functions too! What a cost saving!!! The unit will basically pay for itself over time! Gosh the telecom companies will hate me. But big whoop they earn enough from internet and wifi already!
Great Christmas gift for bad times! B&O do you hear me? People can easily justify to themselves for this purchase. This is a life boat for you. And design it well, award-winning even!
PS. I am not that great at speaking B&O's design language so.... I can't help you with that.
I think the beocom 5 will be B&O last phone.... and the end of the line for phone sets and speaker phones etc as a whole.
Corporate is slowly moving to systems that require their own specific gear.In my office, all we now use ringcentral (which requires it's system specific handsets/speakerphones) which works over IP and interacts even with our cell phones also over IP etc. It works rather well.
More and more we do conference calls through skype and now more often with video. Everyone now uses smartphones and or laptops as communication devices giving us better and more advanced options of communicating.
I facetime my family in europe, Use skype with suppliers in South America etc.
The telephone and even the cell phone as such is dying a slow dead I find.
cooldude: I think the beocom 5 will be B&O last phone.... and the end of the line for phone sets and speaker phones etc as a whole. Corporate is slowly moving to systems that require their own specific gear.In my office, all we now use ringcentral (which requires it's system specific handsets/speakerphones) which works over IP and interacts even with our cell phones also over IP etc. It works rather well. More and more we do conference calls through skype and now more often with video. Everyone now uses smartphones and or laptops as communication devices giving us better and more advanced options of communicating. I facetime my family in europe, Use skype with suppliers in South America etc. The telephone and even the cell phone as such is dying a slow dead I find.
Oh yeah I know about IP phones but how about for the average user? I mean I used to have my phone line bundled to my internet back in NYC and it was like $60 unlimited for long distance but it certainly wasn't remotely free. And who wants those ugly giveaway bundled phones anyway? I connected mine to a BeoCom 4. And there are Skype apps built into mobile phones as well so.... Instead of paying extra... And of course with this kind of system you can use it with a computer or a tablet such as an Ipad too.
PS. Cooldude. Freaky!!! Your avatar picture.... I did a similar design in my high school way back in 2003. The whole deer wearing sunglass thing.... Mine was a much more friendlier and gentler looking deer though.
wonderfulelectric:Oh yeah I know about IP phones but how about for the average user? I mean I used to have my phone line bundled to my internet back in NYC and it was like $60 unlimited for long distance but it certainly wasn't remotely free. And who wants those ugly giveaway bundled phones anyway? I connected mine to a BeoCom 3.
I don't think we're not talking about the same thing. Never said it was free either. The system we used is very user friendly and we do realize that comes at a cost for the convenience. It allows us to use whatever we want on the system (the handset, our cell phones, even ipads etc..) It's $30 per user/month unlimited. Including installations and handsets. You can check out yourself at ringcentral.ca before you comment.
As in regards to the bundled phones. ... It's not that bad looking either. Fairly standard looking stuff.
Well that is looking very nice and brilliant in concept then again it's only available in Canada and yes the bundled phone isn't looking very hot.
But what about those who doesn't want to go through the hassle of setting up such a system?
Oh I know another function to add to the new bedside radio/ wifi *** bluetooth handshake phone system. A weather station! Everybody needs one. Especially right upon rising. Weather is so unpredictable nowadays and going online or opening the app in your phone is an extra step. It will make dressing up for the weather so much more convenient.
I mean B&O is supposed to be a lifestyle brand so there you go..... taking care of our lifestyle needs.
And regarding the handset it should have an option of paring with a wireless headset or earset, both options operating in radio frequency to the station btw. Not bluetooth god knows what that kind of radiation right beside your ear will do to your cells.
@wonder....tric
" ....It will make dressing up for the weather so much more convenient"
I usually ask my wife - because at the time when I rise she already has been out walking the dog - or I just take a peek through the window
Greetings MM
And by the way - I also often wondered who this Millemissen is?
There is a tv - and there is a BV
I already have a weather station. It's really complex and consist of my eyes, and if I'm unsure of temps, I stick my nose outside.
In fact, I don't check the weather when I wake up. I shower and shave myself before I even think of the weather.
I definately don't want a combination phone/clock radio/weatherstation (and what else you can think to combine) next to my bed. If I expect a call, I bring my cell phone, otherwise I have an ordinary alarm clock that works just fine.
wonderfulelectric:And regarding the handset it should have an option of paring with a wireless headset or earset, both options operating in radio frequency to the station btw. Not bluetooth god knows what that kind of radiation right beside your ear will do to your cells.
You realise that bluetooth is also"wireless", right? In other words, there's a radio transceiver at both ends. Bluetooth runs on less power than WiFi, and as a result it radiates less power and has a shorter range than, say, 802.11b/g/n.
Millemissen: @wonder....tric " ....It will make dressing up for the weather so much more convenient" I usually ask my wife - because at the time when I rise she already has been out walking the dog - or I just take a peek through the window Greetings MM And by the way - I also often wondered who this Millemissen is?
Good for you how about for a possibly permanently single chap like me who needs to rely on gadgets and widgets for day to day living?
Oh appearances can be deceptive. It might look sunny but it can be hell of a winter frost and vice versa and what about those people who don't have an instant view of the outside world from the comfort of their bedrooms? I used to stay in one of the apartments of the Plaza that faces in inner court/garden... I don't think anybody can have an accurate measure of the weather conditions outside. Unless you are some psychic that is... Trust me in NYC it is better to live in the inner sanctuary of the apartment of a building especially with all the noise pollution you get from the streets!! Garbage cleaning.... Drunken people yelling in the middle of the night.... Totally uncalled for.
Electrified: wonderfulelectric:And regarding the handset it should have an option of paring with a wireless headset or earset, both options operating in radio frequency to the station btw. Not bluetooth god knows what that kind of radiation right beside your ear will do to your cells. You realise that bluetooth is also"wireless", right? In other words, there's a radio transceiver at both ends. Bluetooth runs on less power than WiFi, and as a result it radiates less power and has a shorter range than, say, 802.11b/g/n.
Point taken but it has a lesser range doesn't it? Then say a conventional wireless phone?
wonderfulelectric:Point taken but it has a lesser range doesn't it? Then say a conventional wireless phone?
Yes, very much so. It also has less bandwidth.
wonderfulelectric:Good for you how about for a possibly permanently single chap like me who needs to rely on gadgets and widgets for day to day living?
There's no need to "rely" on gadgets ad widgets, unless it a) helps you survive (in which case I wonder what you did before), or b) helps you make money.
In other words, I seriously doubt you actually need to rely on widgets and gadgets. You need to be able to differentiate between wants and needs. They're very different.
I often use a term in Danish, which is "teknoliderlig" which translates into something like "technohorny" or "technolustful". I often fall into that category myself, so it's not derogatory. However, since I coined that expression, I often go "Do I actually need this, would it make my life easier, simple or better, or is it a case of technolust?".
Well having a phone/clock radio/ weather station right side your bed definitely helps make life easier. I can't believe no bedside alarm radio I know of has this function yet. I guess most have an alarm and phone side their beds right? Why not integrate all of them altogether? Make it high end built to last. Hell price it at Beoplay 8 and I think it will still sell like hot cakes. Use three inch widebanders for the mid to highs instead of the the pathetic two inchers in the Beolit 12 for better stereo separation and fuller body. BMR will be great for this use. Marantz is already using the drivers for their high end wifi hifi system ,Consolette ( quite an eye sore IMHO) , to a great effect and it is by no means cheap BTW. But I wonder how do you design integrate all these functions in an elegant package? I suppose a discreet charger will also be needed to charge either the phone or headset too.
And the Beocom 2 is just such an impractical gimmicky phone that should be phased out asap. There is a reason why no design awards have been given to that phone yet. I suppose it is selling well to those who needs conservation pieces in their homes though.
Just thought of a few extra ideas for the new product idea!
Built-in Usb Power outlets to charge your tablets and phones.
Alarm ring tones by renowned ambient music composers like Brian Eno, Susumu Yokota and William Orbit.
Added function of acting like a sound machine aka white noise maker.
Provision for a traditional phone line input.
What an all in one bedside electronic solution!
I think this bedside station should be launched in B&O core range in its most refined and penultimate form and with the technologies later filtered to the Beoplay range. Price it 2-3 times that of the Beosound 8.
Sound quality wise rivaling that of Lab 3s.
You can already get most of this with an iphone + weather app + white noise app + timer app + high quality dock. Probably not as nice as what you envision, but probably good enough for most.
At least in the US, land lines are dying. If I had a business, I would not invest in building a product that relied on land line phones.
wonderfulelectric: Just thought of a few extra ideas for the new product idea! Built-in Usb Power outlets to charge your tablets and phones. Alarm ring tones by renowned ambient music composers like Brian Eno, Susumu Yokota and William Orbit. Added function of acting like a sound machine aka white noise maker. Provision for a traditional phone line input. What an all in one bedside electronic solution! I think this bedside station should be launched in B&O core range in its most refined and penultimate form and with the technologies later filtered to the Beoplay range. Price it 2-3 times that of the Beosound 8. Sound quality wise rivaling that of Lab 3s.
Sounds like something from radioshack driving a pair of Lab 3s!
Maybe a tea-making facility too??
Ban boring signatures!
Fortunately I'm not a paraplegic who more or less lives in his bed. To me, my bed is a calm place to sleep. I prefer it that way.
Come to think of it, why does imaging matter? First of all, the drivers would have to be very close to each other, and secondly, as something to go on the side of the bed, you would mostly hear it from one side, anyway.
I mentioned technolust earlier, and this seems a prime example of that: Let's stuff as much junk and features into something, and why not price it in the stratosphere, that'll convince people, even if they don't need it or want most of the features".
I'm sorry, but at this stage I think it's just a daft idea. Good design usually involves cutting things down to the absolute necessary, and then simplifying that.
Electrified: Fortunately I'm not a paraplegic who more or less lives in his bed. To me, my bed is a calm place to sleep. I prefer it that way.
Whatever it is it shouldn't take more than one hand to operate or it'll kill his love life.
I do have to admit though that I'm one of those that check the weather app on my iPhone to see what the temperature is outside. It also gives me a quick summary of the whole day so I can plan accordingly. As I am still in a state of flux with the new house (can't finish unpacking until certain repairs are made, I really dont' want to unpack, get setup, repack, get work done, unpack and setup again, etc. and it's really frustrating), I haven't even gotten my Sangean (replacement for a Proton, which was made by Sangean) table radio back out. So I tend to use my iPhone for an alarm, etc. One thing that's relatively new these days that I think I will incorporate in the bedside outlet are outlets that have two USB power ports on them in addition to two conventional outlets, at least I've seen them on this side of the pond. Very useful, I can think of several places I want to put these.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Hehe, you're right about the one-handed operation!
I'm not saying that using a phone as an alarm is bad, nor that a weather app on your phone can't be useful. I just don't see the point of having something like that (stationary) at my bed. And when you then add a ton of "features" to that thing WonElec suggests it just becomes ridiculous, in my opinion.
As for those outlets, I have seen them here too, and in Australia as well. They're basically an inbuilt usb charger. I'd love to have a couple of those in my desk at home as well as a couple of them near the door.
I agree about the lack of utility of a fixed system that does that, that's the point behind smart phones, portable information you can use anywhere. Sony did make a system similar to that IIRC, it hooked to your wifi, was a weather, time, web content thing, but it didn't take off mainly because it wasn't portable, and then tablets hit. You can setup an iPad or other tablet on a table charger and have the same thing, plus take it with you around the house. Just turn off the time out for the display when you put it on the charger.
The thing that always sold me on the Proton (aka Sangean) table radios was the fact that the volume on the alarm, music or beep, ramps up slowly, so it kind of gently wakes you up instead of startling you awake. Back in the day when I was single, I had to wake up at some god awful time like 3:30 am to get to an early shift at the lab during system testing. Earlier I'd had the radio cranked up listening to it while in another room. So, O Dark Thirty rolls around, the radio switches on at full volume right during the Twisted Sister song where the guy screams at the top of his lungs. After I pried myself off the ceiling and managed to get my heart rate back down to double digits, I went out and got my first Proton radio.
Lol.
I admit the whole approach to the imaginary product is a little over the top. Maybe not the provision for landline ( it's a cheap function to include though) but at least you can have a bedside phone that is synced to your phones where you can be freed from talking on those Cell damaging devices at home.
Regarding sound quality rivaling that of beolab3s, a total possibility with BMR. And about the white noise thing... Almost everyone I know in NYC has a sound machine and they are fugly so why not include that function into a bedside radio?
As for the ambient music just adds a touch of class and sophistication to the product. If you are going to charge people so much more .......
Whole idea about the station is that it will free you from touching your mobile devices at home.
This can be a used on your desk, beside table, in an office( especially a psych office lol with the white noise...), or just beside your computer serving as speakers and skype phone.
wonderfulelectric: Lol. I admit the whole approach to the imaginary product is a little over the top. Maybe not the provision for landline ( it's a cheap function to include though) but at least you can have a bedside phone that is synced to your phones where you can be freed from talking on those Cell damaging devices at home.
Once again, just because it's cheap to implement, doesn't mean it should be there. Keep in mind what good design entails.
Secondly, you mentioned WiFi earlier, where I explained that the power of such a radio (transceiver) uses more power than BT, hence radiate more.
Third, what's the point of having synced handsets if you can use your cell phone for the same. To me it seems like a solution looking for a problem.
wonderfulelectric:Regarding sound quality rivaling that of beolab3s, a total possibility with BMR.
I know it's opening a can of worms, but using a full range driver might sort of work when you give the driver a test tone. The moment it has to deliver the deepest bass while simultaneously delivering the highest notes you run into problem. They may have great sales speeches, but the best that can be said about them (still) is that they are good for miniature implementation. On the other hand, when going small and really small, normal drivers will act perfectly as full range drivers, simply because they have so little mass (think headphones).
wonderfulelectric:And about the white noise thing... Almost everyone I know in NYC has a sound machine and they are fugly so why not include that function into a bedside radio?
I know absolutely noone who has a white noise machine. Perhaps it's the same people who buy those "ionizers".
wonderfulelectric:Whole idea about the station is that it will free you from touching your mobile devices at home.
And at the same time a) have the same functionality tied to your bedside, and b) have to carry around another device, which is more limited.
wonderfulelectric:This can be a used on your desk, beside table, in an office( especially a psych office lol with the white noise...), or just beside your computer serving as speakers and skype phone.
As can a cell phone. Why would I want to buy a glorified land line phone to carry around in my house? Or even the bedside base station? And that at "three times the price of the A9"?
Edit:
I forgot: There are no research that supports the notion of getting brain damage by using a cell phone. Nothing, nada, zilch.
I don't get why you're so worried, yet would like to implement WiFi on the same sort of handset, but are not worried about that.
If a cell phone's radio frightens you, a WiFi transceiver should frighten you much, much more.
BMR is still only applicable from upper bass to the highest of frequencies. And it is only recommended for high end applications that it should be used from the low mids to highs ( these a are the regions where the BMR will function as it should be, not as pistonic drivers but Balanced mode radiators just as its name suggest) .BTW even el cheapo BMRs as used in Cambridge audio's Minx are super flat throughout the vocal range both in frequency and polar response and you know how that benefits psycho-acoustically. You will realize more hifi manufacturers are going for either wideband drivers for midrange to highs or crossover free from mid to highs these days. The benefits are manifolds!
So thus the loudspeaker implementation would require subwoofers. Freeing the woofers from mids will make life way easier for the woofers. B&O can just include one pair of 4 inch subwoofer drivers in each channel in a push push pressure chamber configuration. Check out the Marantz Conselette or the Naim Ovators and you will know how the proper implementation of the BMR configuration should be done. The BMR are known to be super fast so either small drivers or overdamped bass alignment should be used. Anyway BMRs are super cheap considering you are getting both a tweeter and midrange in one super performing package. But time and R&D is required to suit the BMR to your use; it is highly tunable and should be tweaked to get the best out of it. So not all BMRs are the same so I guess that is why is so rapidly assimilated into the audio industry because unlike LAT subwoofers, the sound between different models is easily discernible.
Price wise I meant three times that of A8 not A9. Cos that will be nuts. Around say $3000 -$4000? I think it is still quite reasonable for a quality made product that replaces so many products. Plus you really want it built to the highest standards so it will look posh in offices etc...
Well white noise do help to muffle the sounds coming from the streets and perhaps acts as a sound barrier of sorts. I have no idea how it works but it works! I see it in almost every office in NYC. BTW certified doctors use them not voodoo doctors lol... It works particularly well in populated areas I suppose. It's a cheap function to include, programming the noises into the same memory chip that is used to store the alarm music will be a piece of cake. PS. The white noise don't have to be literally white noise but sounds of the rainforest or streaming water will be great too.
As for the landline, it's just there so not to alienate the more traditional crowd plus it is nice to have two lines working for you. One for the office/home and the other for your cell. Internet phones still include traditional telephone line outputs so.... It's there to serve a function. It provides as a transitional platform from people who are used to landlines to internet/wifi phones.
As for radiation at least the wifi will not be right beside your ear near your brain. Don't you get fatigued just talking for a short ten mins on your mobile phone? And the hookup between the physical phone to the station will be via radio so the radiation effect will be way more benign; an option to have earsets will be nice too. Perhaps a bluetooth link up between either the tablet/computer/ mobile to the station will be more ideal since they will be placed closer together and I think bluetooth is more reliable where dropouts are concerned. That's why I suggest USB outputs to charge your mobile devices so you can leave them charging while using the station. I suggest the station to not be over reliant on I devices/ apple devices. I think Apple's dominance in the market may soon be short lived. A bulk of Indonesians I know use blackberry platform and even use high end alternatives from Porsche design and don't forget the increasing crowd of people who uses luxury phones like Vertu etc....
The whole Iphone craze is so going to die out. Too many revisions of the same old.
PS. The old bluetooth earset from B&O sucked ass. It was freaking heavy and uncomfortable for what it was and charging wasn't so convenient, perhaps transduction charging should be included in the station where you can just place either the phone or the earset casually on it for charging?
OMG! This product will make headline news for B&O if it ever makes it to the market that is. It will galvanize B&O's image as a lifestyle brand big time. I imagine designing this package not to be a small undertaking but.... B&O can totally filter the know how gotten from creating this product throughout the Beocom range. I can see it to be a big sell out for sure! USB charger, Weather station, Skype phone meets bluetooth handset ( automatic phonebook transfer function should be included), white noise machine, alarm clock and high end radio/ sound system all in one. Perfect for office, bedroom, kitchen or dare I say the bathroom!
Lest not forget that B&O used to make stethoscopes, health monitors, pill dispensers and diabetic medication injectors etc...
It's not gotten just so Sound and Vision only nowadays. And It's not exactly at the cutting edge at both. Perhaps vision..... but because the panels are not made in-house by B&O it's hard for the public to pay premium for B&O TVs. But because panel technologies have already started to stabilize maybe things will change but then again 4K TVs are coming out so.. I suggest perhaps B&O should just go for the old Pioneer route. Add superior processing engines into commercially made panels with better build quality because IMHO not everyone want wants those decent performing active speakers in B&O TVs because for people who can afford B&O TVs can afford proper Hifi or high end surround.
Okay, I'm not going to comment on each of your claims, since you make an unsubstantiated assertion and then builds on that as if it were true. I could be here all day, if I were to comment on everything.
But anyway, here are my few remarks:
So basically you have admitted that these BRM drivers are not actually as good as you claim they are, all the while continuing your unsubstantiated claims and showing your ignorance of why a widening of the dispersion pattern is good for the most part.
As for panels made in-house, I hope you're kidding. Do you realise how much it takes to make panels? And in Denmark, no less. Would you be willing to pay £250.000 or more for a 50" panel? I think not.
That's the beauty of global trade. You can have specialised factories delivering to manufacturers. That way it's not only cheaper, it's much more efficient. You mentioned OEM and having B&O use BRM drivers etc. That wouldn't be in-house either.
I'm sorry to say, but you need to get studying and learn a bit about engineering if you think that processing engines etc. are built into the panels. Perhaps take apart a telly would be a good start for you. The panels themselves are "merely" wafers with liquid crystal in between. They don't have in-built anything.
I think this sentence sums you up quite nicely:
wonderfulelectric:OMG! This product will make headline news for B&O if it ever makes it to the market that is. It will galvanize B&O's image as a lifestyle brand big time
OMG!
wonderfulelectric:Lest not forget that B&O used to make stethoscopes, health monitors, pill dispensers and diabetic medication injectors etc...
They still do:
http://www.medicomnordic.com/
However, don't think that they're somehow building those dispenser/injectors in-house. Besides, what's your point? Do you think a stethoscope is somehow hard to manufacture?
@wonderfulelectric. Can you make a picture from all the Bang & olufsen things you own.
Some people have delusions of adequacy...
Jeff: Some people have delusions of adequacy...
After trying to figure that one out, I gave up. I had to go to Urban Dictionary to look it up. It's a great term (now that I know what it means).
Come think of it, have you heard about the about the Dunning-Kruger effect?
koning: @wonderfulelectric. Can you make a picture from all the Bang & olufsen things you own.
Sure they are all over the place. You can only see the A9s in my profile I suppose.
Some in Singapore some in Indonesia etc... Will take some time. Why?
Electrified: Jeff: Some people have delusions of adequacy... After trying to figure that one out, I gave up. I had to go to Urban Dictionary to look it up. It's a great term (now that I know what it means). Come think of it, have you heard about the about the Dunning-Kruger effect?
Nope but thanks for bringing that to my attention. You chose to analyze me that way for a reason. You know there are infinite questions and answers to choose from but yet you chose that.
[edited]
Sorry, I somehow thought Jeff was the one who had posted the above.
WonElec, for my part it was because I thought the Dunning-Kruger effect was related to Jeff's "Delusions of adequacy". I think both are great terms, and without being too offensive, you know a bit of this and that, but are unable to connect the dots as you have shown time and time again. You're so often factually wrong, despite knowing a lot of words and terms in general. And when you then add your patronising attitude when you comment that B&O ought to be paying you for your "advice", you fit exactly into those categories. You think you know it all, yet get the very basics so wrong.
Electrified: Okay, I'm not going to comment on each of your claims, since you make an unsubstantiated assertion and then builds on that as if it were true. I could be here all day, if I were to comment on everything. But anyway, here are my few remarks: So basically you have admitted that these BRM drivers are not actually as good as you claim they are, all the while continuing your unsubstantiated claims and showing your ignorance of why a widening of the dispersion pattern is good for the most part. As for panels made in-house, I hope you're kidding. Do you realise how much it takes to make panels? And in Denmark, no less. Would you be willing to pay £250.000 or more for a 50" panel? I think not. That's the beauty of global trade. You can have specialised factories delivering to manufacturers. That way it's not only cheaper, it's much more efficient. You mentioned OEM and having B&O use BRM drivers etc. That wouldn't be in-house either. I'm sorry to say, but you need to get studying and learn a bit about engineering if you think that processing engines etc. are built into the panels. Perhaps take apart a telly would be a good start for you. The panels themselves are "merely" wafers with liquid crystal in between. They don't have in-built anything. I think this sentence sums you up quite nicely: wonderfulelectric:OMG! This product will make headline news for B&O if it ever makes it to the market that is. It will galvanize B&O's image as a lifestyle brand big time OMG! Edit: wonderfulelectric:Lest not forget that B&O used to make stethoscopes, health monitors, pill dispensers and diabetic medication injectors etc... They still do: http://www.medicomnordic.com/ However, don't think that they're somehow building those dispenser/injectors in-house. Besides, what's your point? Do you think a stethoscope is somehow hard to manufacture?
Again BMR for balanced mode radiator. Not BRM. Perhaps you caught this from somewhere what is BRM anyway?
Never said BMR is perfect but obviously way superior for it's intended purpose for wide dispersion than say loading a conventional dome driver to an expensive ALT lens. Plus no crossover for midrange and up. You know that our ears are particularly sensitive between the upper midrange and lower treble frequencies right? It all depends on the tuning of the BMR technology. BTW it is actually a recent further development of the nearly defunct NXT. Will you say all ALT lenses are perfect? And perfect in what sense? Vertical or horizontal dispersion? What is your idea of an ideal loudspeaker?
If it is point source you are looking for then BMR is closer to the ideal than most out there. Flat from 100hz to 20khz. Can you show me another driver that behaves like that with point source characteristics and that is practical too? And BMR technology is still in its infancy. Besides most designers want to restrict its bandwidth for a purpose of reducing distortion. From 400hz and below it will be relatively easy for the bass drivers to handle without much beaming or if any beaming at all.
Regarding the panels I thought Pioneer ended up buying other people's panels too? I didn't mention about how B&O should make their own panels. That will be insane! Maybe somehow in the future somebody makes it cheap and affordable to do so otherwise.... I meant B&O should do what Pioneer did specify the manufacturers what they wand from the manufacturers and then built on the panels with their own video engine which is what B&O is doing now anyway. But what I like to see is the option of not having those average sound processors and active speakers built in. I am cheap I hate wasting on things I don't end up using. That is why I have yet to buy a single B&O TV.
And how come no B&O projector? I think JVC,Sony etc... just buy parts from other manufacturers to make a projector. So....
When I had an Avant way back when.... I loved how it made pictures appear much more easy on the eye. Actually in some twisted way I think B&O might be better at making TVs. As in there is certainly some magic in B&O's video processing engine that you don't see on other TVs. From what I can see in the showroom that effect is still very obvious.
Well it's my thread and we were just so happen to be discussing on it. What's wrong? There's something else you will like to contribute other then saying how this is ridiculous? If you read from the start of the post I started about talking about an imaginary new B&O audio/phone/alarm/charging/ sound machine station. I think it will be a great all in one that will fit in almost everybody's lives. Everybody who can afford it that is. But it will certainly make my life way easier.
Electrified: [edited] Sorry, I somehow thought Jeff was the one who had posted the above. WonElec, for my part it was because I thought the Dunning-Kruger effect was related to Jeff's "Delusions of adequacy". I think both are great terms, and without being too offensive, you know a bit of this and that, but are unable to connect the dots as you have shown time and time again. You're so often factually wrong, despite knowing a lot of words and terms in general. And when you then add your patronising attitude when you comment that B&O ought to be paying you for your "advice", you fit exactly into those categories. You think you know it all, yet get the very basics so wrong.
Maybe.... But shouldn't all of us feel adequate? I wish I do or did .... Otherwise I wouldn't be where I am now if I did feel adequate.
Besides I was obviously joking about how B&O should be paying me etc.... If you don't think it's funny then sorry.
PS. Shouldn't all of us be paid by B&O? lol... I fee like they might be following about feedbacks from here ever since the shutting off the Idea land in B&O's official website that is..... Anyway isn;t it strange that they stopped doing well ever since?.... Well maybe it is related maybe it is not.
And I obviously stated from the beginning the doubts of my own concepts and modify according to feedback so?.... What's wrong with being wrong? Part of brainstorming is about being wrong too. If we are all so afraid to be wrong then....Will anyone be putting their ideas out? Isn't there a recent article in The Economist that wrote about the Will.I.Am ( front man of Black Eyed Peas). Apparently only 1 out of 7 of his ideas made it and even less truly succeed but out of those ideas.... Well I am not paralleling myself to him really but what I am trying to say is that we shouldn't have excessive anxiety about putting out our ideas. Being wrong is as much as part of being right. Plus what is wrong and right in the first place?
wonderfulelectric:Again BMR for balanced mode radiator. Not BRM. Perhaps you caught this from somewhere what is BRM anyway?
Ah, great, yeah, that really matters.
wonderfulelectric:Never said BMR is perfect but obviously way superior for it's intended purpose for wide dispersion than say loading a conventional dome driver to an expensive ALT lens. Plus no crossover for midrange and up.
An active cross over and dedicated drivers will perform better in the real world than a single driver doing it all.
wonderfulelectric:You know that our ears are particularly sensitive between the upper midrange and lower treble frequencies right?
Sigh. What makes you think I don't know about sensitivity of the human ear? I'm not the one thinking I have golden ears and can hear nonexistant differences, or can tell the difference between two dacs playing in another room than I am in. I know what a placebo effect is, and I know how easily the ear is fooled.
wonderfulelectric:BTW it is actually a recent further development of the nearly defunct NXT. Will you say all ALT lenses are perfect? And perfect in what sense? Vertical or horizontal dispersion? What is your idea of an ideal loudspeaker?
You talk like a creatard who can't understand that other people don't need to rely on absolutes. There are varying degrees of certainty, just like there are varying degrees of accuracy. Will we ever get a speaker with absolutely no distortion, with a 100% accurate reproduction and 100% perfect imaging? Of course not. But unless you can not only tell me, but actually show (with actual scientific papers) how the ALT lens with a dedicated driver and an active crossover doesn't outperform a "full-range" driver, I really can't be bothered. You have bought into marketing speech, and think that this driver is the ultimate, regardless of reality.
I don't care how the goal is achieved to be honest. I care that a given speaker measures well (including low distortion).
wonderfulelectric:If it is point source you are looking for then BMR is closer to the ideal than most out there.
You go on about this point-source. Yes, an ideal speaker would be/have that. However, you simultaneously claim that the dispersion of 180 degrees of an ALT is too wide. Obviously, it's half of what an ideal speaker would give.
wonderfulelectric:Flat from 100hz to 20khz.
And in reality we don't listen to test tones at a single frequency at a time. Give that sucker a well produced piece of music, lots of dynamic range, as well as frequency range, and that full range speaker of yours will distort like crazy. That's the problem with all full-range drivers. They sound great in theory, but when applied in practice, they all have to overcome the problem of having one diaphragm to do everything, from the highest notes to the deepest. In small applications such as headphones, that doesn't matter one bit, because the mass is not there, nor is the volume of air needing to be moved.
wonderfulelectric:And BMR technology is still in its infancy
Yes it is, and as such it is not yet competitive in the sound quality department.
wonderfulelectric:Besides most designers want to restrict its bandwidth for a purpose of reducing distortion.
Yes, because full range drivers distort like crazy in the real world, and doesn't even measure well in the real world, as I explained above. And what do you need to do when restricting it's range, yet want to keep it? You introduce crossovers and more drivers. and then we're back where we started: A dedicated tweeter will be more precise than a bigger full-range driver, both attempting to render the higher frequencies. The same goes for the deep end.
In other words, a full-range driver is a compromise, and there is no way you can change the laws of physics to make up for that.
wonderfulelectric:Well it's my thread and we were just so happen to be discussing on it. What's wrong? There's something else you will like to contribute other then saying how this is ridiculous?
I actually agree with you on this point. You made a thread, and as such we can discuss what you want to. If people don't want to read it, they can go read some other threads. When we're here, we're not polluting everywhere else, and that must be a good thing. There's a reason I'm not copy/pasting your posts to my thread from your threads, but only when you post in other threads, if that makes sense.
Actually here is the exciting part about BMR distortion is around 0.1 percent from midrange up which is outstanding for a wide range driver especially when the technology is still in its infancy. And that measurement is taken from a cheapo BMR btw. So imagine if it is further refined. Most dome high frequency units distortion is 1/10 of that so I think the trade off of having a full range driver will near ideal phase and dispersion characteristics with higher distortion is not as great as say having uneven combined polar response from separate mid and treble units coupled with the added trouble of adding extra crossovers and amplifiers etc...
wonderfulelectric:Actually here is the exciting part about BMR distortion is around 0.1 percent from midrange up which is outstanding for a wide range driver
Nothing exciting or outstanding about that. It's an order of magnitude (i.e. ten times) that of other drivers, and the distortion is even worse the lower frequencies you measure. Add to that, that the moment you have it play the deeper tones, while simultaneously having to play the higher notes, they all produce much more (we're talking orders of magnitude here) distortion.
wonderfulelectric:especially when the technology is still in its infancy
I beg your pardon? You are the one who was arguing that these things were so much better than what was currently available, and that B&O (and everyone else) not only should switch to these things, but the fact that they haven't must be because of some global conspiracy or something as ridiculous as that.
Are you now admitting that the BMR aren't at all ready for prime time?
wonderfulelectric:Most dome high frequency units distortion is 1/10 of that so I think the trade off of having a full range driver will near ideal phase and dispersion characteristics with higher distortion is not as great as say having uneven combined polar response from separate mid and treble units coupled with the added trouble of adding extra crossovers and amplifiers etc...
You forget that in the real world it will distort more, much more. You forget that a full range driver is anything but "full range", and no matter which way you slice it, you will need to have at least one crossover, and pretty high up at that, to make up for the most blatant shortcomings of those drivers.
You said earlier that there's nothing wrong with being wrong, and that it was part of the brainstorming process. I tend to agree, but you seem to have complete missed that it won't work unless you realise that you were mistaken, and understand why you were wrong. Otherwise it's just successive stabs in the dark.