ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
I am starting slowly on my BG 4002, opened it up, the wood frame loose and missing some spacers to hold it steady, the belts must have been replaced at some point they look good.
The voltage selector is the well known non working type, this deck is 117V only. There is one big cap 1000 uF 50 V it has 3 wires connected, 2 at the top and one at the bottom, with what do I change it ??
I checked the mechanical moving parts and all was like too heavy moving, so I applied oil where needed, let it soak in a couple of minutes, connected the main power to my variac and my DMM to the 30 V supply and slowly increased to 120 V the 30V OK and nothing smoked.
Pressed 33 the motor started running, pressed 45 and nothing happened, pressed start, the tonearm assembly moved to center and back, I did that a couple of times to get the oil worked in on shafts and the threaded spindle
As I dont have a cartridge I set the tracking scale to "0" attached a screw to the tonearm witha cable strap, and balanced it to "0" set the scale to 1,5, put back the belt platter, belt and the record platter, put on a 7" record and pressed start, tonearm moved, light in 33 display, light in detector arm, light in photo sensors detected record and the speed switched to 45, light in 45 display tonearm lowered, a small touch to the tonearm and it started moving to center and then back to start..tried the 45 switch again but still not working.
I then started dismantling, first the switch board, and here you see the switch assembly, only the 45 switch is very dark, the rest less so, with a fiberglass brush I could get into the switches for cleaning, I will go after each switch with Deoxit later on.
Then onto the PCB 1, looks good no burning marks and no components visibly damaged, I will change the electrolytic caps and measure the tantalums, all the trimmers look ugly so they will go too
More to come
Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.
A nice clean turntable Søren.That is a 4002 type 5513 and not a 5523? I've never come across a 5513. It will be interesting to see what the differences are.
John
If I may offer one small suggestion: clean the relay contacts while you're in there.
I went a little farther today, took out the plexi with the pin codes on it to get at the switches under it. I then took inventory for a Mouser order which hopefully will arrive next week, tomorrow I will start cleaning and lubricating where needed, I will also try to make some guide washers for the wood frame I found pieces of the old ones all over the inside of the deck.
And here my genius solution to check without cartridge
Where can I get a cartridge like that? Yes indeed, Danish engineering at it finest!
I really look forward to this restoration in part because I have three 4000 series Beograms (as you know) and am interested in what you encounter.
As these machines age they all develop their own “quirks” giving them “personality” that I suspect you will come to admire. At least I hope so as I had fun fiddling with my trio….. OK some frustration, but that comes with the territory.
Søren, I admit I am not going to toss my MMC20CL or MMC6000 cartridges in favor of a big, fat machine screw, but I do admire your ingenuity in solving the weight issues of a missing cartridge.
Buena suerte con su nuevo proyecto. ¡Saludo!
Jeff
Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century, S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase, B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder
Piaf:Søren, I admit I am not going to toss my MMC20CL or MMC6000 cartridges in favor of a big, fat machine screw, but I do admire your ingenuity in solving the weight issues of a missing cartridge.
I was hoping that you would send one immediately
Necessity teaches the naked man to spin
Gosh Søren, I swear I about fell out of my chair reading your, “I was hoping that you would send one immediately,” comment. Thank you very much for the Laugh!
Oddly enough I was just playing my Beomaster 2400-2/Beogram 4004/S75 speaker combo featuring Nana Mouskouri’s Greatest Hits and the thought came to me how much you are going to enjoy your newly acquired Beogram 4002. And you will, of course.
Anyway, the stylus got stuck on Enas Mithos and this frankly NEVER happens as I have taken reasonable good care of my records and none of the Beograms is out of adjustment…. but whatever, this time I thought about your machine screw and if it would help with the stuck stylus.
Then I went to the computer and read your post, and honestly, I really could have fallen out of my chair laughing. The timing was so perfect.
Søren, my friend, you made my day! THANK YOU.
Glad I made your day, Richard (Ricardo) made mine, as of now a MMC20EN is on the way to Mex. city, I made him a set of speaker stands 2 years ago, and I am making a second set for him now, and he has send me spare, parts different plugs for B&O, cables for connections and now he send the MMC20EN. All free of charge, he wont even let me pay for shipping.
One gets a lot of very good friends on this forum, a pity one doesnt meet them, I will have to do a US tour one day
The package is suppose to arrive Wednesday so get busy fixin' Soren.
It is in Memphis TN right now
Congratulations Søren on your MMC20EN cartridge and kudos to Richard (Ricardo) for being such a good friend. That is what BeoWorld is all about!
You will like your MMC20EN cartridge as it has a wonderful tone and less “fussy” than the MMC20CL. Perhaps I should word that more forgiving.
I have a MMC4000 (virtually the same as the MMC20EN) on my Beogram 1602 and am delighted with its performance.
Keep us posted on your Beogram 4002’s progress. (I know you will.)
Mouser parts should arrive tomorrow, Richards MMC on Wednesday
Cleaned switches and took the damper apart
Richards package arrived just now, a box about 10"x10"x10", not as expected an envelope with the MMC20EN well protected, Richard just couldnt let it and send me various items that one always need. The MMC was packed inside a plastic bowl with bubble wrap, The bowl is just the right size for my Gastric (google that) so all of it will come to good use Upon the bowl there are 2 data pins for the 7 pin DIN plug
And here the MMC20EN, looks like new and comes with the storage cover, I will now have to find a way to show my gratitude, thank you is not enough.
Richard really does restore one’s faith in mankind, Salute Richard. You have done good!
Now Søren can retire that high-tech Danish machine screw cartridge substitute.
Mouser parts still not there, but did some pics and a little cleaning
The red arrows is where you will have to lubricate, the blue arrow is because you will have to lubricate inside the cylinder so the piston can move properly, I use silicone grease
Most of the levers was moving but not quite freely (old grease), after cleaning and lubricating they are OK, but then I found this one: Blue arrow is the tonearm actuator lever, that one was stuck badly, I had to take off the detector arm to get at it, it is fixed with a"C" clip, red arrow, and between the clip and the lever bearing there is a small spring keeping the lever pressed lightly against the detector arm support, the only thing that holds the tonearm in its up position is the small wire spring, green arrow, so the lever has to work absolutely freely, as I couldnt get at the C clip I cleaned with IPA and moved the lever until it felt free, then with a small screwdriver forced it against (very little force) the C clip, it stayed in this position, more cleaning and moving until the spring forced the lever back against the detector arm support, added thin oil, worked the lever, then cleaned again with IPA, and added silicone grease, worked the lever to get the grease into the bearing and checked various time moving the solenoid with my finger that the whole assembly worked correctly. Moving the solenoid lever with the finger is a good way to adjust the damper valve for the 1 second set down time without power to the deck. The black arrow is the tonearm center adjust and lift lever
Here the drive shaft and nut for the carriage drive, upper part of the nut housing you can get out lifting the PCB a little, you see how much dirt in there even after cleaning and oiling the threaded shaft properly with IPA
Now mark the shaft support to the chassis take the 2 screws out, and taking care not to damage the wires fro the drive motor, you can get the drive shaft out. It is then easy to move the carriage by hand when making the mechanical adjustment needed.
I then moved on to the wood frame, which is also the decks top cover support, in the front right corner a point welded support had come loose
As I didnt want damage the wood glued to the steel frame I couldnt weld it back on, so I had to epoxy it , positioned the support piece and the frame with all special tools available
Mouser parts arrived late today, tommorrow I will have to go to work so I cant do anything before Friday
I made these guide pieces for the wood frame today, very small work in a big lathe, OD 10 mm, ID 3.5 mm, height 2.5mm the guide recess 6 x 1.5 mm, 5 pieces
I found some rests of the old ones inside the deck and could get the nearly correct measurements from them.
The guide washers are supposed to be excentric, allowing you to adjust the trim spacing.I cannot tell if yours are excentric.The original washers had a squarish head with rounded corners.
Martin
Dillen: The guide washers are supposed to be excentric, allowing you to adjust the trim spacing.I cannot tell if yours are excentric.The original washers had a squarish head with rounded corners. Martin
I didnt know they are eccentric as I only had some small pieces from the old ones to go by. I will try with these and see where I land, I was more concentrated on the up/down fit, the whole top plate was sitting loose, if it doesnt work out I will make new ones Thanks Martin
Søren, here is a picture of the guide washers off my Beogram 4000. You can see how they are eccentric.
sonavor:Søren, here is a picture of the guide washers off my Beogram 4000. You can see how they are eccentric.
I checked mine and they work, the frame moves freely and gets a little harder in end position, with the top cover attached differences all around not visible.
Put the carriage drive back in, take care that the groove in the nut is pointing up and in the middle, the PCB has to be loosened and lifted a bit.
The put the pulley side support back where it was
And then the upper nut support
I changed the electrolytic caps and trimmers where needed. Then put in the frame, the PCBs and the display/command units and was ready to start adjustments
As I had done some of the mechanical adjustments before, I just couldnt let it, put the sub and record platter with belt in place and started Chuck Berry with Johnny B Good
Then checked and adjusted speeds with a stroboscope speed check disk, important is to use an incandescent lamp to get an exact reading.
Checked the 5 V lamp for the Darlington lamp, adjusted the 3 V for forward and back movement for the servo motor, they were off by about 1 V one too little and one too much. The vset down points was spot on so need for adjustments also the slow down of the tonearm was OK.
Before you start here follow the manuals adjustments until this point
Now to the length and parallel adjustment of the tonearm, for this B&O tells to use a special tool a guide with marks and points to adjust to. I came up with one solution for the length adjustment some time ago when I was following Sonavors excellent thread about BG 4000. A sewing thread (Black) connected to the record platter shaft and taped in place to the wood frame will do it
First you place the tonearm like in the pic below and then place the thread with a little tension exactly at the cantilever point (tonearm down) and secure the thread with a piece of tape
Then move the tonearm toward the center and check if you have the cantilever point at the same position, if not adjust the tonearm length to the half of the difference toward the thread, move the tonearm back to the first position, move the thread to cantilever point and then check again at the center position, it should look like this
Now to the parallel adjustment, the tonearm has to be 90° to the thread. Lift up the thread a little at the platter shaft until you can get a piece of cardboard like the one in the pic or similar under the thread, place one line exactly lined up with the thread and a 90° line close to the tonearm, check position is like in the pic, if not move the tonearm until it is parallel with the line, if you move a lot you may have to adjust the length again
That's a nice idea with the grid lines on the paper to check alignment.
I was now done with adjustments I thought connected to my BM 5000 pizzabox put on a record and got some nice sound coming out of the speakers, until about the 3rd track, it started sounding terrible, both speakers, I thought Richards MMC20EN had given in, it was resting all way down on the record. I had the tracking force set to 1.3 I turned it back to 0.5 to see what happened, the cartridge no longer was down to the record and sound better.
The problem was this, The counter weight for the tonearm balance had moved, a bad system as Beolover already has found out the C clip securing the adjusting screw has be to be changed with a hex nut and after each adjustment the nut has to be tightened and the adjustment checked until it is right.
I dont have a tracking force scale so I will have just to balance the tonearm with the scale set to "0", I did this but every time I just ticked the tonearm it went of adjust ment again, I didnt have a hex nut available so I just pressed the C clip closer to the screw support, and that did it
Here the counter weight mechanism
I could now put on records and as Sonavor I enjoyed a couple of LP, best sound with the tracking force set to 0.8
Left to do is the hex nut and the wood frame and then finish assembling and connect it to my BL 5000 system
And here a pic I know Jeff up in the cold north will enjoy
Good job and welcome to the 4000 club. If you are anything like me it wont be long until it is the deck of choice.
All others will seem pale by comparison.
Hi Søren,
You have performed too many miracles for me to comment on just now…. it is past my bedtime. However I will say you managed to avoid the bulk of the adjustment nightmares I encountered with my 4000 and 4002.
Yet YES Jeff here in the COLD frozen north enjoyed your daring in playing your new Bette Midler record. I would never, but never have attempted such a risky maneuver.
When my various Beograms were giving me fits requiring HOURS of adjustment, I used an old “disposable” copy of WCWR’s Greatest Hits, a promotional LP from a local Clearwater, Florida radio station.
Somehow you missed entirely the “drama” of the tonearm coming down like a guillotine, dropping BEFORE the record….. and then too late…. and after those misdeeds were corrected picking up too early or too late at the end of play.
Obviously you were doing a lot more right than I was! Fortunately once one gets it right, it stays right.
I hope the “Devine Ms. M” sounded wonderful on your restored 4002!
İUsted es una inspiración para todos nosotros!
Pick up one of these or one of these (are they made by the same manufacturer or just look the same?). You will find them useful with all of the turntables you have.
sonavor: Pick up one of these or one of these (are they made by the same manufacturer or just look the same?). You will find them useful with all of the turntables you have.
Just bought one, checked some years ago and they were a lot more expensive, thanks John
I finished up as far as i could, just couldnt wait to connect it to my BL 5000 system, this beat my BG 5000 pizzabox with MMC2, and the BG 4002 has a used MMC20EN, I am impressed.
To do is adjusting tracking force with a scale, will arrive next week, select feet to attach and get some good pics, not possible where it stands now.
Playing one of my favorites for test, and of course I played Mireille M to test the highs for distortion.
It even detect transparent records without problems
Cartridges, especially “antique” cartridges are incredibly subjective as to performance. What they were the day of manufacture has little to do with how they perform today.
My BEST cartridge is a MMC20CL that my dealer told me was due for replacement in 1980 (or thereabouts) and I purchased a new MMC20CL; only keeping the original as a spare. This is my “jaw drop” cartridge I use to really impress serious audiophiles.
What “should” be my best cartridge is a NOS (still in sealed box) MMC20CL that is very, very good, but does not compare to my “spare” cartridge.
I have gone so far (not trusting my own aged ears) to gather some audiophile friends and switch the cartridges from the BG 4000 and BG4004 and the difference is so distinctive there was universal agreement that the old almost discarded MMC20CL far exceeds the range, clarity, and accuracy of the NOS cartridge.
Why? Who knows? Plus the sad truth is someday this outstanding cartridge will have its suspension harden and fail, requiring rebuilding. But for now and the last 7 years it has been the finest cartridge I have.
I also have a MMC6000 that was sent to me by a friend who couldn’t bear to have it fail “on his watch.” This friend was recently SHOCKED to hear that his old MMC6000 is still in daily use (BG8000) and sounds superb. This MMC6000 is quite similar in reproduction quality as compared to the NOS MMC20CL cartridge in spite of the huge age difference.
Adding to the subjectivity on older styluses I am 100% of the belief that these older cartridges benefit from use, that is to say they play better after a few plays then when allowed to go idle for a few weeks at a time. (I am not sure if this is a prevalent view here on BeoWorld, but it is mine.)
Lastly, none of my 4000 series turntables will play clear records…. glad your does, don’t know why mine won’t. I was actually concerned when I opened the Bette Midler double set and saw the pink translucent vinyl records not knowing if my turntables would play them. Apparently there is sufficient hue in the vinyl to allow these records to play.
Back to you Søren I am really pleased how much you are already enjoying your “new” Beogram 4002. Richard is quite right; the 4000 series Beograms are remarkable turntables and may well be without peer.
Søren Mexico: I finished up as far as i could, just couldnt wait to connect it to my BL 5000 system, this beat my BG 5000 pizzabox with MMC2, and the BG 4002 has a used MMC20EN, I am impressed. To do is adjusting tracking force with a scale, will arrive next week, select feet to attach and get some good pics, not possible where it stands now. Playing one of my favorites for test, and of course I played Mireille M to test the highs for distortion. It even detect transparent records without problems
So you already think it performs better than the pizzabox 5000. Gee what a surprise !!! But sooner or later your gonna want to hook it up to your 4400.
Mine also will play clear vinyl without any problem
Mine can also play transparent vinyl without a problem.
With the pizzabox hooked up to BL 5000 it sounded a little better than with the BM 4400, but it may be because I wanted it to, playing radio on both, the BM 4400 has better reception, but sound the same with the same speakers.
I have tried nearly all my BGs with the BM 4400, until now the pizzabox with MMC2 came in the best, surprisingly the second is my BG 1000 with a SP14 from Axel, with the same cartridge the 1202 is very near to the BG 1000, not better but different.
Glad the 4002 is up and you're happy with it.
I didn't know the Stones had reissued Hot Rocks.
Rich: Glad the 4002 is up and you're happy with it. I didn't know the Stones had reissued Hot Rocks.
You will have to check, they are apparently coming up with more reissues, BTW I am going to the concert here in Mexico on March 14
The tracking force scale showed up yesterday and today I could put the the last touch on the BG 4002
I attached the hex nut instead of the C clip, as there was rests of Locktite on the screw I could adjust it perfectly without bothering to secure it with anything
As the cover was off I didnt need to connect the power, just lifted the actuator arm with a nail and the tonearm went down on the scale, tracking force adjusted to 1.0 Gr. then move the adjusting screw until the scale showed the same.
I checked this a couple of times, reset the scale to 0.00 with the 5 Gr. wight the came with it, tested again, put the tonearm in the rest position and ticked it with a screw driver shaft a couple of times, checked again and no changes. adjusted to 1.2 Gr.
Cover back on
This one of the easiest refurbishments I ever made, except for the wood frame guides no mech. failures, and just change caps, clean the trimmers, change one trimmer and check and do adjustments, overall cleaning and lubrication.
Even so I am proud of the result as every time I restore one of these amazing pieces, I dont know when I am proudest, when I pres the start button on a 50 Ton printing machine, after a general rebuild, or when I start one of my B&O devises. It is an amazing feeling.
Here some pics finished
That's always a bonus when you don't have to do a rescue restoration like you did on the BM4400 and Beolab. It looks like you have a good BG4002 unit. Those things will just keep performing when you keep them in good working order like you have done. Great job. John
Søren,
I was SO hoping you would acquire a 4000 series turntable. True, I had high hopes for a 4004, but your exemplary restoration of your 4002 showed, once again, what you are capable of.
I have no doubt that you will be continually amazed as the stellar performance of your new 4002 and I give you my word, you are going to LOVE it!
Plus John is right, (as I have said altogether too many times) that once you have a 4000 series right, they stay right. They do.
The only downside is you get “rusty” in your adjustment skills as I, for one, have largely forgotten what needs to be done to get everything exactly right….
Enjoy your latest success!