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Heads-up for the audio geeks

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Geoff Martin
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Geoff Martin Posted: Mon, Aug 5 2013 12:31 PM

Hi everyone,

This is just a friendly pointer to a somewhat geeky interview I did recently about one of the steps in our loudspeaker development process. Please forgive the blatant self-promotion, but one of you might be interested... Wink

http://cycling74.com/2013/07/22/an-interview-with-geoff-martin/

cheers

-geoff

Alen
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Alen replied on Mon, Aug 5 2013 1:13 PM

Nice to see you again. 

 

 

BS A1 2nd gen, BS 1, Beo 1, BL 2, BeoCom 2, 2x LC 2, Form 2, BS 2, Beosound 2, Beplay M3, 2x BS 3, BS 4, 2x Beo 4, BS 5 + CD rip, BM 5, BL 5, BL 6000, Beo 6, BS 6, H6, BL 8000, 2x A8, BV 8-40, H9, 3x A9 Keyring, BL 12 - 3, Serenata, BeoTime, BeoTalk 400, B&O Bottle Opener, BV Eclipse 55  My LEGO 

Peter
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Peter replied on Mon, Aug 5 2013 1:14 PM

Already been posted a week or so ago!! We are obviously even bigger geeks than you thought! Big Smile Must try to get to Struer again sometime if only to listen to you again - the highlight of the last trip (along with playing with Lee's Bentley!!)

Peter

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Hello Geoff ! Thank you for sharing your experiences. Hoping that Bang & Olufsen will launch soon a new collection of loudspeakers. I heard that BeoLab 4000, 6002, and 8002 are not in production. I hope that these products will be replaced soon. Can you confirm please ? Thanks. Best regards.
Geoff Martin
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Peter:

Already been posted a week or so ago!! We are obviously even bigger geeks than you thought! Big Smile 

Oops. Sorry. My apologies for underestimating your coefficient of geekness. T'will not happen again.

Cheers

-geoff

Geoff Martin
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BeoBoy68:
I heard that BeoLab 4000, 6002, and 8002 are not in production. I hope that these products will be replaced soon.  Can you confirm please ? 

Hi,

Sorry - for obvious reasons, I cannot make any comments regarding issues related to the marketplace - I can only provide occasional technical assistance.

cheers

-geoff

Millemissen
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Hi Geoff,

thanks for the link anyway.

You might get a couple more readers - and fans - this way Smile

Greetings Millemissen

There is a tv - and there is a BV

Millemissen
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Echo  post - sorry.

Greetings Millemissen

There is a tv - and there is a BV

BeoBoy68
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Hi Geoff ! No problem. I can understand your position. I hope that Bang & Olufsen are pleasantly surprised ! ;-) Best regards.
pf85
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pf85 replied on Mon, Aug 5 2013 7:40 PM

Geoff, thanks for the interview. An unrelated question but as the loudspeaker is out of production.  Any comment re the "controversal BL1" and any idea short of BL2 how to tweak it ?

Puncher
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Puncher replied on Mon, Aug 5 2013 7:52 PM

pf85:

Geoff, thanks for the interview. An unrelated question but as the loudspeaker is out of production.  Any comment re the "controversal BL1" and any idea short of BL2 how to tweak it ?

A very good question!!

Perhaps I could expand it a bit and include the Pentas, I'd love to hear Geoff's thoughts on the past speaker range compared to the current products -  the highs and lows, so to speak - especially the aforementioned Pentas and BL1's.

I realise of course that you (Geoff) have real work to do and so feel free to ignore the above!Smile

Ban boring signatures!

Evan
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Evan replied on Mon, Aug 5 2013 8:21 PM

Yes Geoff, thanks for the link.

Since another poster shared this when it was originally published, I have downloaded Max and have been tweaking filters ever since. I have even found a small external DAC and have begun integrating it. This is truly great software. 

I really enjoy it when engineers are able to share their tools and ideas - thank you!!! Yes - thumbs up

Beo4 'til I die!

Steve at Sounds Heavenly
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Hi Geoff,

Thanks for the link, its good to see some of the processes that you use for working through the DSP algorithms.  I've been experimenting with in-room DSP correction using a Raspberry Pi single-board Linux computer lately, so it is encouraging to see how much you have achieved using Max to design your DSP outputs.

No need to apologise for self-promotion, keep up the good work!

Its been a while since we last spoke in Struer, so if you are over in England any time soon please get in touch, as it would be good to catch up (even if we don't quite agree on some minor points of loudspeaker design!) Big Smile

Cheers, Steve.

Steve.

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Founder of Sounds Heavenly Cables and Brand Ambassador for Bang & Olufsen

Sounds Heavenly are proud to sponsor BeoWorld!

Please check out my YouTube channel at https://youtube.com/soundsheavenlycables

olvisab
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olvisab replied on Mon, Aug 5 2013 10:12 PM

Hello Geoff,

A great pleasure to see you among us. You have so much things to explain to us.

Best regards

Olivier

4 beolab 5,  beolab 9, beolab 10, beolab 5000, beolab 8000 mk2, beolab 6002, beolab 3500, beovision 7 55 mk2,  2 beovision 11 46 mk4, beotime, beosound ouverture, beosound essence, beoplay A8, beomaster 900 RG de luxe and the collection continues...

9 LEE
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9 LEE replied on Mon, Aug 5 2013 10:42 PM

It's an honour and a pleasure to have a man of your knowledge and experience on here Geoff.  I'm afraid my ears are made of cloth, so I cannot comment on anything from a cymbal to a double bass as they sound exactly the same to my addled head.

Please, please always post on here as often as you possibly can. You are (and I really mean this) one of the most engaging people I've ever met - and you have the gift of being able to make very complicated things very understandable and also very interesting. I'd sit and listen to you all day.. until about the time the happy penguin opened and the lure of Danish Ale dragged me away..  LOL  ( joking, I'd stay, really... )

I can honestly say, on behalf of the entire BeoWorld Membership, please.. come on here more. Muse, throw ideas at us, pick our collective brains. For every hundred tonnes of coal there's a hidden diamond. I provide the coal, by the way... 

Lee

John
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John replied on Tue, Aug 6 2013 1:34 AM

9 LEE:

It's an honour and a pleasure to have a man of your knowledge and experience on here Geoff.  I'm afraid my ears are made of cloth, so I cannot comment on anything from a cymbal to a double bass as they sound exactly the same to my addled head.

Please, please always post on here as often as you possibly can. You are (and I really mean this) one of the most engaging people I've ever met - and you have the gift of being able to make very complicated things very understandable and also very interesting. I'd sit and listen to you all day.. until about the time the happy penguin opened and the lure of Danish Ale dragged me away..  LOL  ( joking, I'd stay, really... )

I can honestly say, on behalf of the entire BeoWorld Membership, please.. come on here more. Muse, throw ideas at us, pick our collective brains. For every hundred tonnes of coal there's a hidden diamond. I provide the coal, by the way... 

Lee

 

Seconded.

I found your technical help and explanation of the workings of the ABL circuitry and system protection re my Lab 9's to be extremely helpful Geoff, and would also hope that you pop in here more often...would love to read more of your blogs etc as well...

Kind regards

John

 

Geoff Martin
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Geeze you guys... Tone it down a notch! I'm blushing so much it might be the cause of the unusually warm weather here in Denmark. Smile

I'm dropping in to BeoWorld occasionally - but often I can see that someone else answers questions faster and better than I could. But I promise to do what I can.

Cheers

- geoff

BeoHut
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BeoHut replied on Tue, Aug 6 2013 1:30 PM
Thanks Geoff for posting on this forum.

If you have more tips to tweak our systems for the maximum results, please let us know. Even a simple trick, tweak and placement option can be very usefull for us to get the maximum out of our speakers.
Carolpa
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Carolpa replied on Tue, Aug 6 2013 2:51 PM

Thanks for sharing.

I share your opinion with surround sound. so it would be desirable to have the SACD playback option on the BV11 series again

I miss to listen to my SACD's since I switched from a BS3 to the BV11-55.

Millemissen
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SACD on the BS3 and not on the BV11-55???

As far as I know the only way to have SACD playback on both systems is to connect a SACD capable player to it/them - I would recommend an OPPO BRP.

Maybe I should ask how you listened to the SACD's before (on the BS3)?

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV

Carolpa
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Carolpa replied on Tue, Aug 6 2013 4:52 PM

Millemissen:

SACD on the BS3 and not on the BV11-55???

As far as I know the only way to have SACD playback on both systems is to connect a SACD capable player to it/them - I would recommend an OPPO BRP.

Maybe I should ask how you listened to the SACD's before (on the BS3)?

MM

Correct.

I use an Oppo BR but the BV11 won't accept DSD-PCM converted 88.2 or 176.4 kHz signals (this is what the Oppo send as output format). Homemedia on the BV11 also doesn't accept these formats. After upsampling them to 96kHz (files for Homemade) they are audible. But this is impossible with the output signal from the Oppo. Thus no SACD!

 

 

Geoff Martin
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Carolpa:

I use an Oppo BR but the BV11 won't accept DSD-PCM converted 88.2 or 176.4 kHz signals (this is what the Oppo send as output format). Homemedia on the BV11 also doesn't accept these formats. After upsampling them to 96kHz (files for Homemade) they are audible. But this is impossible with the output signal from the Oppo. Thus no SACD!

 

This sounds fishy to me... I play SACD's (admittedly, on a Cambridge Azur, converted to PCM at 96/24...) and it works fine on the BV11-55.

What Oppo do you have? If I can find one in Struer, I'll give it a shot.

Cheers

-g

Geoff Martin
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pf85:

Any comment re the "controversal BL1" and any idea short of BL2 how to tweak it ?

Could you please be more specific? What is controversial about BL1? (that one is before my time... Smile   )

Cheers

-g

Millemissen
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Hi Carolpa,

I - too - would like to know which OPPO player you are using?

The OPPO and the Azur should be fairly identical - why should there be differences in the PCM output when decoding DSD?

Greetings Millemissen

There is a tv - and there is a BV

Carolpa
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Carolpa replied on Wed, Aug 7 2013 12:04 AM

Oppo BDP83

To aknowledge the effect buy a 24bit 88.2kHz track from HDtracks.com and try to play this file with Homemedia on the BV11.

Greetings

 

Millemissen
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Hi Carolpa,

very interesting observation, indeed.

The specs of the new engine aren't saying anything about that:

"HDMI: PCM, multichannel PCM" - but nothing about bitrates.....

Was your 'old' BS3 capable of playing those files?

How did you/did you try to play the files? Via USB-stick or through the network?

OBS! HDTrack files aren't PCM,

 

As for the OPPO83/SACD you can read in the Wiki:

"When converting DSD to PCM over HDMI, what is the highest resolution supported?

 

When the BDP-83 converts DSD to PCM internally, the resulting PCM data is 24bit/88.2kHz. This is the nominal processing rate produced by the conversion process, with no upsampling applied."

 

Geoff writes that his Cambridge Azur outputs DSD to PCM at 24/96, and that this can be played on his BV11.
Seems that the DAC's in both are different/have different capacities regarding DSD-decoding...
...and that the BV11 accepts a 24/96 signal.
Which Cambridge Blurayplayer are you - Geoff - using?

Both the OPPO83 and the 93 uses the same DAC: the Cirrus CS4382A
Does Cambridge perhaps use another DAC in their players? And they use upsampling technology - as always by CA!

It would be VERY interesting to have these things sorted out - before investing in a new BV (11/V1/BSys4) or (perhaps) in a new OPPO/Cambridge BRP.
That is if you are interested in playing SACD's or highres music!

Greetings Millemissen

There is a tv - and there is a BV

Carolpa
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Carolpa replied on Wed, Aug 7 2013 9:26 PM
The BS3 can handle 88.2 and 176.4 kHz bitrates

The hdtracks files can be bought in different formats. if played they are decoded to PCM.

Wav f.e. is the PC version of a PCM file.

Upsampling of the 88.2 kHz HDtracks files to 96 kHz results immediately to an audible signal (wav, flac,...) on the BV11

Greetings

Millemissen
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The BS3 can handle 88.2 and 176.4 kHz bitrates

Still waiting to learn what the bv11/V1/BSys4 actually can handle - someone must know!

 

The hdtracks files can be bought in different formats. if played they are decoded to PCM.

Of course.

 

Wav f.e. is the PC version of a PCM file.

WAV is a file format that Microsoft defined for storing PCM-encoded
audio.

 

Upsampling of the 88.2 kHz HDtracks files to 96 kHz results immediately to an audible signal (wav, flac,...) on the BV11

If that is necessary, it is a nogo for the BV11 as an audio device

 

 

Still waiting for the results from Geoff and - maybe - some facts.

 

Greetings Millemissen

 

There is a tv - and there is a BV

Geoff Martin
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Millemissen:

Still waiting for the results from Geoff and - maybe - some facts.

Hi Everyone,

 

Hopefully I can provide both.

Sorry it took a day or two but I wanted to be sure of a couple of things before I posted. Here's the "results" - which I think contain some "facts". :-)

The BV11 & BeoPlay V1  series do not currently support 88.2 kHz or 176.4 kHz sampling rates in the audio path. This came as a surprise to me (as I said in an earlier post, I run 96 kHz without problems) so I have raised the issue internally here in Struer to a number of people across different areas in the product development department.

Many thanks for raising this issue!

Cheers

-geoff

 

Millemissen
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Hi Geoff,

"...thanks for raising this issue" - that is what we are here for 😉

Thanks to you too 👍


Does that mean that your Cambridge Blurayplayer SACD as PCM/96 kHz outputs?

 

Greetings Millemissen

There is a tv - and there is a BV

Geoff Martin
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Millemissen:

that is what we are here for 😉

Thanks to you 👍

Does that mean that your Cambridge Blurayplayer SACD as PCM/96 kHz outputs?

 

You're welcome!

 

Let me throw a question out there, related to this topic (although maybe it should/could be a new thread). How many of you are playing high-res audio? (meaning sampling rates of either 88.2/96/176.4/192 or DSD)?

Come to think of it - this should be a new thread.

the Cambridge Azur 751BD lets you set a maximum sampling rate for the PCM conversion from DSD in the user menus. I typically run it at 96, but it can be set to 48, 96 or 192. Although it's not explicitly stated in the manual, it appears that this is a general rate limit for any source, so it seems that it not only applies to DSD sources, but high-rate PCM sources as well.

Cheers

-geoff

Peter
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Peter replied on Thu, Aug 8 2013 1:51 PM

I will set that question as a poll - I suspect not that many but am happy to be wrong!! I will use your name in vain as it should engender a better response!

Peter

Geoff Martin
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Peter:

I will set that question as a poll - I suspect not that many but am happy to be wrong!! I will use your name in vain as it should engender a better response!

You can do a poll!? Cool!

Thanks for your help Peter! I look forward to the response.

How much are you able to ask? For example, could you also ask in the same poll what bit rate / CODEC people usually use when they're ripping for themselves? Or is that a separate question? I'm curious about the real world! :-)

Cheers

- geoff

Millemissen
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Now the fun begins Smile

MM

There is a tv - and there is a BV

Millemissen
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Not in the poll, so here are my two cents:

I rip my cd's to FLAC in 16/44.1 (anything else would be odd) - might as well be to ALAC.

I have some vinyl ripped to FLAC 24/96.

I am playing back these files through a Squeezebox Touch connected to the line in of a Playmaker (connected to my ML audiomaster).

BUT I would prefer to have/buy highres files - luckily it is getting easier to buy these nowadays.

And the biggest deal - if I am not able to play my SACD's on a BV11 and co, it would be a reason NOT to buy a new BV.

Seems that one has to invest in a Cambridge BRP - those with the OPPO are left behind.

Greetings Millemissen

There is a tv - and there is a BV

Peter
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Peter replied on Thu, Aug 8 2013 2:47 PM

Geoff Martin:

Peter:

I will set that question as a poll - I suspect not that many but am happy to be wrong!! I will use your name in vain as it should engender a better response!

You can do a poll!? Cool!

Thanks for your help Peter! I look forward to the response.

How much are you able to ask? For example, could you also ask in the same poll what bit rate / CODEC people usually use when they're ripping for themselves? Or is that a separate question? I'm curious about the real world! :-)

Cheers

- geoff

 

I can ask just what you want - email me if you like with your request and I can do it. mcevedy (at) mac.com

Peter

Peter
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Peter replied on Thu, Aug 8 2013 2:48 PM

I am the on call GP today so the response could be a little slow!! Big Smile

Peter

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