ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Hello all,
I've been thinking about getting an MMC20CL re-tipped for my Beogram 4000 (the original cantilever has snapped off the one I have) and have been in contact with Axel about his service. I can get a Shibata naked diamond on an aluminium cantilever for approx £150.
I'd pretty much decided to go with that (and watched the German TV video showing Axel at work!) until I saw a post mentioning a UK based company called the Expert Stylus Company (who seem to have good reviews on various sites/forums).
Well I've been in contact and they've come back with a price of £155 to repair the MMC20CL with a sapphire cantilever and a Paratrace profile diamond.
My question is has anybody had repairs done by them and whether to go with Axel purely based on the bulk of good reviews from Beoworld members? I'd prefer the sapphire cantilever, however, from reading reviews the cantilever has minimal bearing on the end sound anyway - but I'd just like to think i was going for the spec B&O went for originally.
Any thoughts?
Light weight and compliance is a reson for a saphire cantilever. I've not used them but lots have and are very impressed. Benz use them for re-tipping as did Linn. The do have a good reputation. The Paratrace stylus seems to increase 'brightness'.
Axel does use the original Shibata which is a plus for originality. It would be interesting to hear your comments on ESC if you choose to use them. What is their turnaround time? Do they do the suspênsion repairs etc that will be necessary on some cartridges?
Most comments seem to suggest cartridges sound better than the original with ESC. Give them a try.
Dave.
@Dave Farr
Thanks for the advice - their turnaround time is 3-4 weeks but don't mention suspension repairs - I was told they inspect the cartridge to see if it's viable and if not there's a £15 inspection/return fee. I did read some good comments about their work on a LINN forum - I'll mull it over before I decide!
@Lee
Cheers - I'm sure the boron option is great - maybe a future upgrade when I can justify it! The 4000 came with an MMC 20EN but I acquired a cantilever-less CL so thought a repair would be justifiable - ultimately it will be paired with my Beolab 5000 which is currently with Frede at Classic Audio. I'm slowly building the system I've always dreamed of!
Having run a BG4000 and a BG3000 Thorens through my 5000 system, your dream system needs a 3000. Mine has an Axel cartridge commissioned by Frede.
Peter
MrRoast:@Peter It may be heresy but I'm not fussed about the 3000. Yes I know it's the bee's knees but I'm a designer and the look plays a big part in making that dream - the 4000 ticks all my boxes! Probably the same reason I'd give the 8000 system a wide birth (Prepares to run...)
I originally ran my Beolab 5000 system with a BG4000 + MMC20CL and was really happy with it. I wanted a completely original system so then also bought a fully restored BG3000 Thorens from Frede to match. I have to say it completely out performs the BG4000 and 20CL combination in everything except convenience of record auto start and stop. However, I understand wanting a system of one's dreams and if that's with a BG4000, then I'm all for it.
The OP wanted to have the cart as per B&O specs but then that would rule out the Paratrace stylus and an aluminium cantilever on a 20CL. I look forward to the choice made and how it sounds when it's done.
@Cleviebaby
Agreed - with Bang & Olufsen we can all appreciate there are more ways their products can be valued than purely just for function; engineering, design, build quality and so on. Likewise we all pander to our opinions and as someone wise once said opinions are like 'bottoms' - we all have them!
I totally understand about the 5000 system from a completist point of view - I'm actually quite envious of your setup in that respect and I bet it sounds fantastic! Stylus-wise I've decided to try the ESC and see what they come back with.
Thank you all for your advice!
MrRoast:@Cleviebaby Agreed - with Bang & Olufsen we can all appreciate there are more ways their products can be valued than purely just for function; engineering, design, build quality and so on. Likewise we all pander to our opinions and as someone wise once said opinions are like 'bottoms' - we all have them! @Dave Farr I totally understand about the 5000 system from a completist point of view - I'm actually quite envious of your setup in that respect and I bet it sounds fantastic! Stylus-wise I've decided to try the ESC and see what they come back with. Thank you all for your advice!
That actually still sounds really good to me. I guess the extra 15 GBP is for the inspection and report fee as previously mentioned. Still sounds a bargain considering to buy a used, unknown condition similar cartirdge can be a lot more. Please report back when it arrives back with you. This service is something a lot of us would be interested in.
MrRoast:Yes hopefully good value! They've replied that the additional £15.00 is for rebonding the perspex stylus guard - goes to show you don't get anything for free .
They've replied that the additional £15.00 is for rebonding the perspex stylus guard - goes to show you don't get anything for free .
Fair enough - time, alignment, fixative, inspection etc. All in all I think it's a good price. There are some MMC20CL's on eBay for well over 400 USD! With no guarantee that they won't need working on. Crazy.
Well a long overdue update!
It's taken just over three months from Expert Stylus Company receiving the MMC20CL to me getting it back - slightly longer than the 6-7 weeks they initially quoted, but I wasn't in a hurry!
The stylus arrived today and well packaged...
Sadly my Beogram 4000 is currently in storage so I can't test it just yet, although I'm looking forward to doing so!
Seems the plastic guard is lose or at least in a strange angle ?
Martin
Hello I have tried ESC and unfortunately they were unable to repair some of my MMC4 and MMC5s and returned them to me, however, they were repairable. Out of 5 cartridges only one worked. They tend to be very slow at the repairing. I am rather disappointed and will try elsewhere.
Professor David A Flynn JP LM
@ Dillen
Hi Martin, I did think it looked a little odd in the package so have lined it up against my original MMC20EN - the guard looks decidedly high and slightly rotated head on. Hmm not the level of detail I was expecting to be honest and given I was charged an additional £15.00 for the re-bonding!
It's the first time I've had a stylus rebuild and so am fairly green, but to me the length of the cantilever seems short? (when compared to the EN). I've not tried playing with it yet but your thoughts are very welcome.
@ Prof Flynn
Hmmm, not good 'word-of-mouth' for them it seems so far!
Here are some pictures of the CL and original EN
Just a slight update - I've had the opportunity to speak to one of the chaps at Expert Stylus Company, I believe his name was Wyndham.
He was very genial over the phone and said they'd done quite a lot of B&O cartridge repairs (he even name checked @ Prof Flynn as a very satisfied customer!). I asked about the guard and cantilever length and he said he'd expect the length to be within a few thousandths of an inch of the original (which doesn;t look like to me). He's asked me if I can mount the cartridge on the arm to check the clearance and get back to him next week. I was told that they'd take it back and re look at it if I was unhappy.
Let's see where we go from here...
To me it likes they have cut off a peace of the old cantilever and then soldered a a new piece with the diamond to the old one.
IMO the cantilever should be soldered to the the moving cross after desoldering the old cantilever, this also to keep the weight of the cantilever down.
I think nothing was done to the suspension and heaven knows if the old suspension has been damaged further from the soldering
Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.
@ Søren
This is how the CL looked when I sent it to them, the original cantilever had sheared off - I acquired it not knowing what it's operational status was.
This is what I received when it went for assessment:
----------
Having carried out a detailed examination of your cartridge confirm as follows:
Model: B & O MMC 20CL S/N 15
Coils: 759 Ohms
Suspension: Good
Cantilever: Sapphire - Fractured
Diamond: Missing
Recommendation: Cleaning of the cartridge, rebonding cantilever protector guard, machine an abutment and fit new sapphire cantilever together with ultra low mass Paratrace profile diamond.
96 800x600 Normal 0 false false false EN-US JA X-NONE
Cost of necessary work: £170.00 inclusive of return insured postage.
--------
I'd initially intended to use Axel but given that ESC are in the UK, and given the general level of good feedback on other forums (LINN etc) for them, I decided to go ahead with the work.
I'm slightly disappointed about them not being able to glue a guard on in the right place (or straight for that matter) but I guess it's about how the thing works not what it looks like. My comments will wait until I see how it works when I try it out this weekend!
Anyone has opinion on SP cartridges. Best retipping with Axel?
blah-blah and photographs as needed
MrRoast: @ Søren This is how the CL looked when I sent it to them, the original cantilever had sheared off - I acquired it not knowing what it's operational status was. This is what I received when it went for assessment: ---------- Having carried out a detailed examination of your cartridge confirm as follows: Model: B & O MMC 20CL S/N 15 Coils: 759 Ohms Suspension: Good Cantilever: Sapphire - Fractured Diamond: Missing Recommendation: Cleaning of the cartridge, rebonding cantilever protector guard, machine an abutment and fit new sapphire cantilever together with ultra low mass Paratrace profile diamond. 96 800x600 Normal 0 false false false EN-US JA X-NONE Cost of necessary work: £170.00 inclusive of return insured postage. -------- I'd initially intended to use Axel but given that ESC are in the UK, and given the general level of good feedback on other forums (LINN etc) for them, I decided to go ahead with the work. I'm slightly disappointed about them not being able to glue a guard on in the right place (or straight for that matter) but I guess it's about how the thing works not what it looks like. My comments will wait until I see how it works when I try it out this weekend!
Would you like to borrow a couple of cartridges to compare? I can lend you a good original CL and also an Axel Shibata - would be interested in the comparison.
Orava: Anyone has opinion on SP cartridges. Best retipping with Axel?
I have repaired 2 pcs. SP 14 with Axel and both very good, compared with an original better and clearer sound over the whole range
I have my original SP12 that I have been meaning to get restored. What are the rates for an SP12 refurbishment?
Beo4 'til I die!
@ Peter
Thanks for the very kind offer - I can't seem to send you a PM or email through the site
Evan: I have my original SP12 that I have been meaning to get restored. What are the rates for an SP12 refurbishment?
Here Axels prices but if you write him he can also offer you Shibata or nude diamond, I have the Elliptischer version