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I would like your opinion on this matter. I bought my BL5s from a company specializing in reselling second hand B&O. Since then I learned the hard way, that not everything is as I expected.
I can sympathise though I think the reseller will have sold these based on his understanding of when they were originally bought. In the time frame you mention, there have been no software updates of note - there was 3.00 released in 2008 but this was not designed as an upgrade but rather to go with a different design of PCB. The Beolab 5 is one of the finest speakers money can buy and apart from an early software upgrade that corrected some issues with connections, no significant changes have occurred since.
However you paid for a product that would appear to be not what was advertised and you could return them for a refund on that basis. I think the difference in price would be very little between what you have and what you expected though. Beolab 5s are sought after second hand so I am sure the seller would be happy to take them back as he will no doubt be able to sell them easily.
Peter
Taking them back at approx. 2.000$ less than I gave is actually the only thing the company offered.
Not reasonable - if you have been wrongly informed of the age, you have a case. Is this a British company and how long have you had them? You do have certain rights as a consumer but these vary from country to country. You would probably be responsible at least in part for transportation. Buyer's remorse is clearly another issue - companies cannot simply refund if you change your mind. From a performance point of view, I cannot see that a newer pair will be any different, so if you are happy with the sound, I would keep them.
It did take me five month from delivery until I discovered the problem with the age. I wrote the company immediately after that. They didn't respond as described in my first post. When they finally did, they asked me to confirm the age with B&O. I did that and forwarded the B&O statement to the company, but then once again they did not respond.
Now, since I am pretty tired with the situation I made a review of the company at an online review site, and within 2 days they rang me threatening with a lawsuite. ( I did mix up some numbers in the review, but of course I corrected that immediately )
It's now been little over a year since the delivery. The speakers are from Q1 or Q2 2007 and B&O confirmed that the speakers most likely have been used for demonstration or testing prior to the first sale to an employee.
kimchr: Taking them back at approx. 2.000$ less than I gave is actually the only thing the company offered.
For sure you have a case my friend. You have been deceipted. And since we are a B&O enthusiasts forum, i think it is fair to state us the name of the company in order to make us more careful in future purchases.
Dimitris-
I would imagine the threatened law suit was bluster - though I obviously did not see what you wrote!! If factually accurate, the review would be very unlikely to result in any form of legal redress. I think you are outside any timescale that would allow return now so personally I would live with it. Your 5s should run 2.61a software which is fine. There is a later version but this was introduced to take in account a new volume control IC and is not suitable for your speakers - there is no performance issue here.
I would suspect that you could sell these privately very easily.
Did you pay a fair price for them? Are there any material signs of aging and do you think they sound different from the way they should? Whilst I can understand your disappointment, I am not sure there is likely to be any significant difference between speakers of those age , given that they were not abused. I am not sure speakers wear out that easily. Without recourse to law, I doubt there is much you can do. If it were me I would mark it down to experience and enjoy the speakers.
@ Peter. Very nicely said.
would you have not bought them knowing they were 4 years old? I also think you should just forget about it and just enjoy the speakers because however old they are still one of the best speakers for sale.
i would not have bought them at that price. i got interested because in the first place i was told the speakers were two years old. i had to accept that they were in facts 2.5 years later. but 4 years i world not have accepten given the price.
Original poster seems to have two problems: exact age of the speakers and the bass not being as expected.
I would forget the exact age issue just as others have recommended here. You just need to look at any of the resellers sites, like Lifestyle, to see that unless there has been a model change or upgrade there is little difference in the asking price whether 2 years or 6 years old.
The dealer who sold the units should, however, be offering full support to ensure that there isn't a fault with the speakers and the apparent (lack of?) bass issue isn't just a room acoustics problem. I'd go back to them and offer a positive review for their service if they can check the set-up for faults/ wrong settings.
Slightly off-topic, but related to this, I have personally found that official B&O dealers seem to have different guarantee periods for products: some will sell a demonstration unit with a full 3 year guarantee even though it may have been on show for some time in the shop, whilst others will treat such a unit as 'Used' and will only give a 12 month shop guarantee. I wouldn't mind betting that there are still white special edition 9000's in some B&O showrooms that have serial numbers showing they were made some years ago, but that will still, legitimately, be sold as new.
Graham
after a year I believe there isn't a lot that can be done about it, I wouldn't worry as you were happy with them being younger so why let that shadow your experience. As for your issue with the bass, I would say that it has something to do with the configuration of them. Others have also had a similar issue check the old forum.
I hope things work out for the best, cheers Nick
When an item is manufactured and when the item is sold are two different things.
I think humbly, your are making a big deal from a small thing.
BL5's would if a dealer had them in stock sit for ages. Maybe years even... Not to speak of B&O inventory.
Hard to say what you mean with "bass not what you expected"... You bought them second hand, so did I with mine, but before I did I went for a proper demo to my B&O dealer.
Too long to list....
If prices do not vary that much from a 2 year old versus a 4 year old speaker, I can't really see the reason why a professional dealer wouldn't tell the real age up front. As a customer I like to base my choice on a trusted fact. I think it's a big problem if you can't.
I have talked to the owner of the company three or four times now. He told me that he buys alot of items from B&O employees and that he consider them new when the employee buys them because of the invoice from the factory. But if items have been used internally by B&O for one or two years before that, I really don't think you can call that a new product.
It is correct that I have two somewhat isolated issues here. 1) that I can't get the speakers to perform right 2) that the dealer ignored me when I tried to raise the issue during the warranty period ( now ended ).
To shortly address 1) I read all relevant posts here. Spent days moving speakers around in the room. Bought a Behringer EMC8000+TC electronic sound card, Measured, listened and moved hundreds of times. Bought isolation pads for decoupling. Carried gigantic concrete slabs to my third floor apartment to put under the speaker. I tried several sources but mainly run spdif from my mini mac, and I haven't found anything mentioning that setupaffects this. I can definately affect sound, but the measurements fromFfuzzmeasure do support me in bass management doing a terrible job. It can be room modes, but the geometry of my room isn't that bad and I did the Fibbonacci placement and all that. I even considered starting the thread "BL5 - Worlds most difficult speaker to place" :-)
Room is 6,4m by 4,4m and the speakers are centered at 1,23m (golden ratio) from the sidewall and 1-2 m from the back, playing the long dimension. Beoworlder Soundproof have a very similar setup I think, and I would really like to enjoy the entusiasm he shows when writing about his speakers.
I don't think we should mix these to issues, so lets stick to what you would expect from a professional dealer. I just wan't to let you know that I didn't put them in the corners and read how to press the top of the speakers for a few seconds.
Have you calibrated the BeoLab 5's to your room by holding down the button on top of the acoustic lens for a few seconds whilst the speakers are in standby? This should activate the microphone that pops out under the speaker and measures the room acoustics to tune the bass to the room.
Thank you Newcastle for your kind advice. You should consider adding ironi or humor tags to your post like this: <humor></humor> or <ironi></ironi>. It is sometimes very difficult to determine how to interpret the sentiment if you don't add markup appropriately.
In case you just didn't read all the way through my last post, reread and skip to the very last sentence. :-)
bayerische: Hard to say what you mean with "bass not what you expected"... You bought them second hand, so did I with mine, but before I did I went for a proper demo to my B&O dealer.
I agree with this. I've had BL5s (approx 2007), BL9s and BL3s. The room where the BL5s were located was approx 8m x 5m. It's too small for the BL5s. They calibrate based on the room (size, floor, windows) and the room affected the calibration (mine are wooden and sash windows). When they first arrived and weren't calibrated, the bass was incredible. As soon as I calibrated them (bad move, I know), they were never the same again - they lacked bass.
I found the BL9s much better in the same room as they don't need or use calibration, so the bass always appeared more significant. I sold the BL5.
It's not the age that's the concern here (2 or 4 years old won't really affect how the BL5s perform), it's the size of the room and sadly the expectations of the user. Mine where high, too. But, I prefer the sound of the BL9s and even the BL3s in the same room.
I have read and I see alot of different sides to this. Shure if the speakers are exactly the same over a period of 4 years, then you get the same product if it is 2 or 4 years. But still you have bout a product stated to be 2 years (2,5) not 4.
A little of topic. If you but a used car lets say a porsche/Audi or BMW (good quality car). The dealer says it is a 2010 model. You but it and after a time you realize that it is infact manufactured in 2008 and has been standing as a demo for 2 years.. It was not taken into traffic until 2010.. Is the car from 2010?In my book the seller is a scammer (?) he must know what he sells! And the fact that he did not answer your calls makes it even more beliveble that he knew that he scammed you. (Sorry for poor english)
In Sweden we have a consumer buyers law that a consumer can use.
Go back to the store and demand your money back since you did not get what you were told.
Regarding performence of the BL5
Let's be honest, DSP correction of any kind isn't going to be as good as a good room.
The bass management on the BL5 is "okey" at best, it's just to much if you ask me.
In my case to get the most out of it is to pull the speakers out 1 meter from the back wall when calibrating them, that did the trick in my room.
And in regard to the age issue, well speakers aren't comparable to say cars, since they don't age in the same way.
A 2008 car model X is often different then the same model X from 2010, due to the fact that in the car industry there are alot of improvements done on the fly " different headlights, different stereo and so on"
Have a look at listings for used Hi-Fi equipment, if it's the same model, the model is still the current one and there hasn't been any changes to the product it doesn't matter if its 2 or 4 year, the price will be the same.
Most high-end stuff lose 40% when taken out of the store and then stay at the same value for a couple of years til there's a replacement model out and then de deprecation continues.
The BL5 are a current model, so whether it's a 2008 model or a 2010 model don't make no much of a difference.
If I sold my BL5's today, I would ask and probably get a much higher price than what I paid for them in 2008 when I bought them.
Interesting story, moxxey. It's sad to hear that the calibration spoiled the listening experience. I move my speakers around all over my living rooms to find the place where the calibration gives me the most, but no matter what it's doing a really bad job. I fear I experience exactly the same.
I do have a really big open space outside, so expect a youtube video of me carrying my BL5s from my third floor appartment into a hill in the park calibrating them there. I expect it will be a laugh when I connect all my extension cords to get power on the thing. Also I fear that the neighbours in the hundres of appartments surrounding this park will hang outside their windows to see whats going on.
I think I will start a thread called "BL5 - the worlds most difficult speaker to place" ( as a tribute to the "Place it where you want" slogan ) for this interesting discussion :-)
In case you have missed it,( i doubt it) by keeping your hand/finger on the top when calibration for an additional 10-15sec will reset the speakers to factory standard.
This usually is the best place to start.
Thomas, You are right about the factory reset. It would have been wonderful if the factory default was a linear response curve. But it''s a calibration from a B&O room. I think it could have helped alot of people if you could "bypass" the room EQ this way.
Further the lights on the speakers are blinking to indicate that you need to calibrate until you do that.
Could this not just be an issue of buying speakers that were manufactured on date x, but sold retail on date y. Hence the gap. Do B&O have a stock of these things or are they made to order?
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
My pair of BL5 was originally bought by an employee of B&O directly from B&O. From what I heard this class of speakers are typically used for demonstration or testing by B&O prior to being sold cheap to the employees. After that the employee are not alowed to sell them again for another two years. B&O confirmed to me that the speakers have likely been used for demonstration or testing before being sold to the employee.
I got the invoice from B&O given to the employee at the time of purchase, so that all adds up.
I bought mine from a B&O employee.
Did I ever think it would be a less good BL5? No.
So you are experiencing too little bass?
kimchr: Interesting story, moxxey. It's sad to hear that the calibration spoiled the listening experience. I move my speakers around all over my living rooms to find the place where the calibration gives me the most, but no matter what it's doing a really bad job. I fear I experience exactly the same.
If you can find a big room, little furniture, no rattling sash windows, tour busses driving past (this is Bath!) and solid floors, you'll be on to a winner!
I have a very uneven response below 400hz. around 20hz it's actually boosted a few db. At 38 hz especially I have a huge drop but it extends upwards.
I read several Beoworlders explain that movies had alot of base but music didnt. I guess, the 20hz boost makes the movie effects rock, but the drop above that makes sure music sounds really thin.
I did move speakers and listening position in small increments hundreds of times, without finding a sweet spot.
Yeah, the blinking top light it's not so "sexy"
Performence wise I think that the BL5 are close to my Wilson Watt Puppy, so they can't be that off?
hmm... i don't think the age of the speakers is an issue here. you put a lot of money to get a perfect and flawless soundstage from your new speakers. and now you think it's just not so perfect after all.
keep the speakers. if you still think they are broken - pack them to the official b&o dealer for a repair and perhaps they can just test the speakers, if they hear anything weird on them.
what speakers you have owned before beolab 5's?
kimchr:I read several Beoworlders explain that movies had alot of base but music didnt.
Imo, music and movies need different settings. I am fortunate enough to have my 5/1 tv and my music in different room's. I do not like listening to music in my tv room as it sound's poor by comparison.
In my opinion you have been deceived and it is a purposeful misrepresentation. There are hundreds if not thousand of pounds difference in a pair of bl5 24 months difference in age.
Please take note, the reselling Company was not morethanAV.
I have BL8000, BL6000, BL3, BL3500, BL7-4 to compare with. I revisited the factory reset today and in terms of bass it gives me far more than an in room calibration. I measured again using my Behringer ECM8000 and FuzzMeasure and the dip around 40hz is completly gone. When calibrated in room it's down by 10db at least. Much better, but far from ideal. I suspect the calibration is just doing a really poor job in my room.
I will start a new thread called "Wishes for Beolab 5, 10-year anniversary edition" and add the first wish. No blinking green lights when using factory preset for bass calibration"
It seems that I am stuck with this as my best option, so I will need masking tape on the lights to not go crazy.
IMO if I bought those speakers, I probably would not buy from that company again. Deception is deception... For me, I don't think the age would be my issue, rather the fact they have been used for testing and demo by B&O. I would take this as the speakers have had a harder life than they normally would have in a home environment...
x:________________________
oh, and the car comparison.. I wouldn't like to go and buy a 2012 car from a dealer, then find out it's actually a 2010 model, whether it's new or secondhand!
kimchr: I have BL8000, BL6000, BL3, BL3500, BL7-4 to compare with. I revisited the factory reset today and in terms of bass it gives me far more than an in room calibration. I measured again using my Behringer ECM8000 and FuzzMeasure and the dip around 40hz is completly gone. When calibrated in room it's down by 10db at least. Much better, but far from ideal. I suspect the calibration is just doing a really poor job in my room. I will start a new thread called "Wishes for Beolab 5, 10-year anniversary edition" and add the first wish. No blinking green lights when using factory preset for bass calibration" It seems that I am stuck with this as my best option, so I will need masking tape on the lights to not go crazy.
I did the same for a while, I then later tried to calibrate them maybe 1-2 meter from there position close to the wall corner and that helped a bit.
I have no idea how your room is but in my case my room is quiet livesounding, and not damped very well, this makes the top end sound brighter and louder then the rest of the frequency range.
The problem is that the calibration software is just taking into account the bass up to say 300Hz, so while calibrating it has no idea how the top end is performing.
So sure I can get a ok flat 20-300, but that kind of sucks if that's at -15db compared to the rest of the frequency range...
I am not sure what to put in this, but one of my speakers have a serial starting with 19... and the other is starting with 20...
I saw a table on the old forum saying 19xx serials are produced in 2006 and 20xx serials are from 2007. Is this table a rock solid fact or is it a rule of thumb?
Are Beolabt 5s normally paired in a special way or in some way mathed or calibrated together?
Jonathan: oh, and the car comparison.. I wouldn't like to go and buy a 2012 car from a dealer, then find out it's actually a 2010 model, whether it's new or secondhand!
It's not quite the same. To 99% of B&O users, no-one is ever going to notice the difference between a 4 or 2-year-old BL5. Barely anything has changed, design the same and so on.
A car is far more distinguishable by the number plate, the number of miles on the speedometer and more.
Depends what the plan is with the BL5s. Keep them a few years and the two year difference won't make a huge difference to the re-sale value. Hardly the "thousands" someone mentioned above. If a dealer is prepared to reduce the cost of buying BL5s, by thousands, purely based on a two year age difference, then they don't understand the value of the BL5s as a speaker.
I've sold speakers in the past and got the dates wrong. It's easy. I was sold BL9s once which were a year older than advertised. Only found out their real age after trading them in against different equipment.