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Hello all
I would love some help to choose some speakers for my music / dance room.
I have had some history with this which has cost me a small fortune.
First of all I had some lab9's which sound perfect but cut our with today's modern music which is full of bass and due to the height have to be turned up loud to compensate for the low listening height, these ended up in my lounge as prt of my cinema setup.
I then built some fake insulated walls and bought some lab 12-3 which looked amazing but did not quite cut it for me and the volume did not make it high enough before protection mode and the bass would cause them to turn themselves down.
Next I decided to try something else, I purchased a rotel amp and some bowers and Wilkins speakers Cm9's these speakers sound very good and suit the room, i also make a cable that enabled the amp to switch on from the beosound triggar, but I have replaced the woofer in them three times when music and the bass making the speakers unhappy.
All in all the lab9's sound the best in terms of quality but cannon take the volume.
The lab 12's were amazing lookin.
The CM9 speakers sound excellent but not as deep as the lab9's nd have no built in protection to avoid overdoing it.
I have asked Ian from more tha AV to trail some beolab1's but the reviews I read are that the bass is poor and they sound clinical. They may also be to large for the look of the room.
The music room is basically my own personal nightclub with disco lights smoke machine and very loud music. I don't want big disco speakers I still want warm quality. Sound but the ability to turn it up loud. Without the speakers telling me off. Any thoughts? Sorry. For punctuation this iPad is awful.
Eclipse 65V1-32Beosound M5Essence MK2BLI
Hi Seanie,
I've read with interest your dance room reports for a couple of years now. The BANG&OLUFSEN approach when it comes to dance music is sooooooo the wrong way to go. They have never been designed for this. Coming from the dance radio industry, you really need professional broadcast speakers. Have a look at the Pioneer XY series. They are available in different sizes and are more than capable of powering your dance room. I found the BeoCentre a very weird choice for a dance room. Have you thought of two Pioneer CDJs with your MacBook/iPhone/USB stick?
Have a look at this video. Also for a nightclub room, check out the Bose 802 pro speakers. At under £2000, they are practically bomb proof in terms of exceptionally high volume levels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_SINLLmFaU&list=UUg70JR8kcR0fTdarQf9xj_w
Hi again Paul
Beosound is because all I play is spotify though an airport express and then via a.aux nothing special.
I don't play just dance music it can be as simple as Chris brown, Rhianna or will-I-am but equally modern music is very bassy.
I have to also consider day to day this room is part of my house and needs to look nice. I cannot have the Bose as they would stand out like a sore thumb I think.
The Pioneer X & Y would be fantastic for your room in terms of looks as they are available in white too. For club use and pro use, these are now regarded as the industry standard.
It's very bizarre that your speakers aren't coping with the loud bass levels. I used BOSE AM5 accoustimass speakers in a club room in my house for over 15 years and never damaged them once - even with the bass and treble n max (using Technics amps). Maybe you could try them at £400 for the set.
Have you not considered the beolab 20?? They sound and look amazing when i demoed them i was blown away.
Beoplay A2
Hi Mark,
I think we are talking really high volume levels here and the Bang&Olufsen speakers with their built in amps are just not able to take this pressure - they overheat. It kind of reminds me of putting a non athlete on a treadmill for five hours and expecting him to run top speed for the full amount of time! It's a totally different environment - B&O are lovely, really lovely for pleasant listening but what Seanie needs is something a little more tough.
Crikey - you must play your music loud!
I had four Penta's once in a room and that was amazing as the bass is massively deep (Swedish House Master particularly good) - would 4 of these be good if you had decent ones (i.e refoamed etc) ?
How big is your dance/music room?If you have the space you could connect a powerlink active to a poweramp and install 2 Klipsch La Scala speakers or the version that must be put into the corners of a room.
http://www.klipsch.com/la-scala-ii-floorstanding-speaker
You should listen to them if they suit to modern dance music. If they sound good to your ears, you'll never have to worry again about damaged speakers.Klipsch La Scala and its corner-put (I don't know the english name for it) cousin are well known for the pure power due to the horn loaded construction! If you want to listen to rock concerts at their original volume levels, this is the speaker to go. Before you damage these speakers they will damage your room.
They do look ugly, yes, but this could bring the power you want to your room. Give them a listen if they suit to your desired music.
I was going to mention Klipsch's as well. The corner one you mention is the Klipschhorn. It was the first speaker Paul Klipsch marketed back in the 50s. It's been modernized, better drivers and horns, and is over 104 db/watt efficient. These things will part your hair with a 10 watt amp.
Something like this or a Pro type speaker are the only things that will survive the abuse given for a dance room kind of application. Any and all normal audiophile speakers are not designed for this, you need a speaker that can handle large current amounts for long periods of time without overextending or burning out drivers. Sadly none of them will have the style of B&O, but the Klipsch stuff is available in various kinds of wood, and are furniture grade in their cabinets.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Jeff: I was going to mention Klipsch's as well. The corner one you mention is the Klipschhorn. It was the first speaker Paul Klipsch marketed back in the 50s. It's been modernized, better drivers and horns, and is over 104 db/watt efficient. These things will part your hair with a 10 watt amp. Something like this or a Pro type speaker are the only things that will survive the abuse given for a dance room kind of application. Any and all normal audiophile speakers are not designed for this, you need a speaker that can handle large current amounts for long periods of time without overextending or burning out drivers. Sadly none of them will have the style of B&O, but the Klipsch stuff is available in various kinds of wood, and are furniture grade in their cabinets.
Seconded. A very high efficiency passive speaker like a Klipschorn, or a very efficient active pro speaker would beat almost all audiophile speakers I could think of for a dance room application.
Additionally, a room full of people will act as excellent sound absorption, so an very efficient speaker system (Db sound output for watts input) would be de riguer IMHO.
John..
I once saw a picture of a guy's home theater that had 4 Khorns and a LaScala for a center channel. He was driving them with a Carver Sunfire home theater amp that could put out 1000 watts peak on each of 5 channels. I figured he could implode a bowling ball at the listening position. One thing I've heard said about large horn speakers is that instead of a "you are there" experience, the give you more of a "they are here" experience. There are numerous pluses and minuses with horns, but I will say that for dynamic attacks like from drums and such, nothing can equal the snap your head back impact of horns.
BTW, 121 dB is excruciatingly loud.
Here are the Khorn specs:
1946
Have you looked at Artcoustic before? The owner of the company Kim is also a DJ so he knows how dance music should sound. I work for a custom installation company and we deal with B&O, B&W, Triad, DefTech, Procella, Wisdom, Pro Audio etc. but I have to say the Artcoustic really handle dance music well. Have a look and if you want any more info let me know.
These would probably suit quite nicely http://www.artcoustic.com/Art_speaker_SL%20Series%20floor%20wall%20page.html
Cheers,
Nick
I don't think a speaker with a low freq extension of 65 hz -3 dB will be a very effective dance speaker. Lots of tiny drivers there.
Agreed but paired with one of these http://www.artcoustic.com/Product%20pages%20HTM/Spitfire%20SL%20Sub.html or http://www.artcoustic.com/Art_speaker_SL_Subwoofer%20page.html and then setup properly with their correct amplifiers http://www.artcoustic.com/Product%20pages%20HTM/PA250%20&%20PA750.html the result really is astounding. Just to clarify I don't work for Artcoustic but I hear a lot of speakers in my job role and for dance music these systems do really well. If you want the subs built in to the speakers then they even do these:
http://www.artcoustic.com/High%20end_hifi_speakers_Stealth%20Series.html
That's an approach I was going to mention but never got around to, using two or more subs to handle the bass and hopefully protect the sats. After all, there's really no limit to the number or size of subs you can use! Adjust them so that the bass is appropriate, not all run at full level (unless you want to of course!), but the more subs there are the less hard they have to work.
Jeff: That's an approach I was going to mention but never got around to, using two or more subs to handle the bass and hopefully protect the sats. After all, there's really no limit to the number or size of subs you can use! Adjust them so that the bass is appropriate, not all run at full level (unless you want to of course!), but the more subs there are the less hard they have to work.
While it's not B & O, here are some high efficiency satellites and subwoofers from a US manufacturer you might want to consider I'm tempted by the subwoofer and I have BeoLab 5s.
http://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/mtm-210
http://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/triax
That's one of a very few subs I've ever seen that would actually outperform a pair of BL5s.
How about four Beovox MS150's?
I don't think they would be powerful enough - the tweeters would probably sound harsh at very high volumes. I have seen M100s and M75s used in clubs but I seem to remember that they were being sold as the drive units were burnt out!!
B&O speakers are really designed for domestic use - I think you need professional units as listed above.
Peter
BeoBoy68:Buy 4x BeoLit 12 and stream them together with iTunes ! Unbelievable sound for € 2.000 only ! Beolit 12 White Edition .... The Boom Boom Box !
BeoNut since '75
I have just seen on Artcoustics FB page www.facebook.com/artcousticspeakers that they have launched a new speaker with the text: "If you have a project in a large room, club, commercial venue, or just a client that likes to party..then you need to see and hear these!"
Hi all
i think I am going to sell the bowers and Wilkins CM9 which I have blown a woofer again and go for a set of beolab penta 3
they have four woofers per speaker and also the technology to stop clipping and distortion which should keep the room looking smart and give great sound.
now the hunt begins and then possibly amp repairs and reforming.
all good fun
I had 6 penta´s playing at once before. My neighbour never complained, couldn´t hear the knocking on the door or the doorbell ;)
"You think we can slap some oak on this thing?"
Seanie_230: Hi all i think I am going to sell the bowers and Wilkins CM9 which I have blown a woofer again and go for a set of beolab penta 3 they have four woofers per speaker and also the technology to stop clipping and distortion which should keep the room looking smart and give great sound. now the hunt begins and then possibly amp repairs and reforming. all good fun
A wise decision to go for the Penta's. I have a set in my Bar/danceroom. Not the Lab's - but the Beovox Penta's hooked up to a Beomaster 6500 (with a new set of caps).I had a party this weekend - and they were playing LOUD. Some of the guests, who can be considered 'audiophiles' and usually a bit critical about B&O were really impressed. They tried to turn it up at full volume to see if they could hear any distortion or 'clipping'. None of that happened. The amp played loud for 5-6 hours with no problems.
One of the very popular tracks that night was this one - by a Danish artist called 'Lykke Li'. Good for testing the bass
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS6wfWu0JvA
So if you get a set of 'pentaLab's', do some refoam and give the amps an overhaul -then you will have enough bass for most purposes. And good looking speakers too
My personal bet is that you'll either destroy those too, or not be happy. What you want to do is not what home audio is designed to do, unless you go with a pro audio solution I suspect this will be an endless loop.
I totally agree with you Jeff and that's what I said in my first post! Penta's are old, old, old - it would be like dressing Prince Charles in skinny jeans and Converse and expecting him to out do the b-boys. Just ain't gonna happen. You NEED pro/club/broadcast speakers for your environment!
Jeff: My personal bet is that you'll either destroy those too, or not be happy. What you want to do is not what home audio is designed to do, unless you go with a pro audio solution I suspect this will be an endless loop.
With all respect,Jeff. I don't see why he should destroy those too...
This is what he wrote:
The music room is basically my own personal nightclub with disco lights smoke machine and very loud music. I don't want big disco speakers I still want warm quality. Sound but the ability to turn it up loud. Without the speakers telling me off. Any thoughts?
Of course, I don't know if Seanie's 'personal nightclub' is open every night of the week... If so - Then he would certainly need some Pro equipment...But - if it's a room only used now and then (perhaps even every weekend) - then the Penta's would do fine. Yes - B&O is home audio - but it is build to last.As we see here on Beoworld, people have audio equipment 40-50 years old -or more. With some TLC (and some new components now and then) they will go on for many years.Seems like Seanie knows what to do, if he finds a set of Penta's. If they are playing now, after 20+ years - then some new caps will probably make them play the next 20 years or more.
Go back and read his posts, how many drivers has he destroyed? How many times has he forced a system into thermal shutdown? He's been farting around with inappropriate equipment for what he wants to do performance wise for quite a while, and still hasn't found anything he can't either blow or make shutdown. You think Pentas with 4 5 inch woofers each are going to handle the SPL he seems to require?
It's his room, he can do what he wants of course, but the only thing that's going to survive that kind of abuse is pro audio gear, stuff you can turn up to 11. It's like saying I really don't want a truck, but I'm going to use a succession of sports cars to try and haul a huge trailer. Just because you don't want a truck doesn't mean you'll ever find a two seater that will do the job. Reality can be a harsh mistress. And it doesn't matter how often in a week he does this, it only takes a short period of time to stress a home audio component acting as a pro level system beyond its limits. I've seen it done in less than 5 sec with the right kind of abuse.
I have read the posts Again... Did he destroy any B&O speakers..???
(Quote):
(end of quote)
What I read is, that Seanie has not destroyed any B&O speakers. Some of them turned themselves down for protection...
He did destroy the CM 9's hooked up to a Rotel amp - because there was no protection...
And here is his latest comment:
(quote):
How many drivers has he destroyed? The ones in the B&W CM9's... None of the B&O's - as I read his postings...(correct me if I'm wrong)Distortion and clipping kills drivers... - not high volume alone. A 2 x 25 watts amp can kill a set of 150 watts speakers under the right (or wrong) conditions. (I am not saying that his Rotel is only 25 W - just an example)
I hate to repeat myself - so please read my post above again. This is my experience with Pentas. I guess I could have killed the Penta's - if they were hooked up to an amp without any protection circuit - but they're not!They can play really loud - for years and years - and they have done it. Believe it or not.Seems like Seanie want to give it a try... Why not..?
Pedantic aren't we? Thermal shut down on B&O products, did you miss that? He's been given plenty of good advice on how to actually solve his problem, but I doubt he will take it. And woofers are not killed by too small an amp. I've seen plenty of dead ones and none of them were killed by small amps. B&O makes high fidelity home gear, they smartly provide a myriad of protection strategies to protect the speakers from the users, but they are not nor ever will be pro audio designed for long, high volume abuse as opposed to sensible home audio use.
The OP kind of wants his cake and to eat it too...something that rarely happens in the real world no matter how much you wish it were true.
Just to add some numbers, each Penta has 4 5 inch woofers driven by a 150-200 watt amp depending on the year if I remember right. The Lab 9 s he drove into shutting down, that tripped the protection, have a 10 inch woofer driven by a 500 watt Class D amp. Four 5 inch drivers have the same Sd as one 10 inch driver, same surface area, but much lower Vd or volume of displacement as they have a lower Xmax. The woofer on the 9 is a very heavy duty and robust driver, and the protection circuitry is more advanced than what was available in the days of the Penta. I think it's possible to damage the Pentas. However, as they can be had cheaper it's possible to run multiple pairs, but I'd say at least six if them and after investing that much money, and restoring them, still might well wind up with something unequal to the demands.
The Pentas have four 5 inch drivers driven by a 150-200 watt amp. The 9s have one very robust 10 inch driver driven by a 500 watt Class D amp, and he drove those into protection. The surface area, Sd, is about the same for four 5 inch drivers as for a 10 inch, but the displacement volume, Vd is bigger on the larger driver as Xmax is larger, and it has a larger voice coil that's better able to handle thermal stresses. Also, protection circuits on the 9s are more sophisticated than was possible in the days of the Pentas. I think you could damage a pair of Pentas more easily. also, being vented the Pentas would be more easy to damage by bass below their higher system resonance unless they have a very steep high pass filter to cut bass below the tuning freq out, which is hard to do in an analog circuit without a lot of problems.
Of course, as they are less expensive used its possible to run multiple pairs, I'd say at least three pairs would be needed. Then again, that still might not work, and he'd have dumped a lot of money and time into restoring multiple pairs and still might not have something suitable. Would look great, but I'm still of the belief he'd be better off with something specifically designed for his application.
Jeff: Pedantic aren't we? Thermal shut down on B&O products, did you miss that? He's been given plenty of good advice on how to actually solve his problem, but I doubt he will take it. And woofers are not killed by too small an amp. I've seen plenty of dead ones and none of them were killed by small amps. B&O makes high fidelity home gear, they smartly provide a myriad of protection strategies to protect the speakers from the users, but they are not nor ever will be pro audio designed for long, high volume abuse as opposed to sensible home audio use. The OP kind of wants his cake and to eat it too...something that rarely happens in the real world no matter how much you wish it were true.
Not pedantic. " /> I think that I was around the protection circuits too. I have never experienced what you call "thermal shutdown". My experience with B&O is, that the circuits are more sophisticated than that. Distortion makes them turn down - hot or not..!
However - you are absolutely right about woofers not being killed by small amplifiers. It is only treble -and sometimes midrange drivers that suffers that fate. I was thinking about my youth, when friends blew their cheap speakers - of course it was never the woofers. But the whole thing ended in the scrap-yard anyway. I stand corrrected " />
But - as I write in my posting. I have had only good experience with Penta's.
Life is sometimes a compromise. If those penta's are not loud enough for the OP, then I don't know what is
Yes - maybe the OP wants his cake and eat it too. But - as he says - he wants good looking speakers. Not some ugly boxes. He can for sure get some ugly boxes that can 'stand the heat' - but it seems like he doesn't want that...
Those Penta's can play loud - and they do not blow the woofers. Well maybe Seanie will make those amps shutdown -and maybe he then buys a real mean amp - bypasses the amp in the pentas and blow it all to bits.And maybe he'll then buy some ugly boxes...- or maybe just turn Down the volume a bit to avoid hearing damage..? " />
Well, Seanie - you have heard some suggestions. The rest is up to you - But please tell us about it.
A friend of mine had a club with RL140s for speakers. These were solid performers, and were used for many years in a smoke filled nightclub!!
x:________________________
Hi Guys
you are all correct I did not intend to cause any controversy.
i do want my cake and to eat it but I am looking for the best compromise possible, you are right I have never blown and B&o speaker and I adore the design of nearly all the speakers. I do not want disco speakers or to spend thousands of pounds more on pro speakers that look out of place.
the penta is the largest speaker I will have had in the room and they are a good height for music projection. The lab 9's sound amazing but the sound is very low down, if your seated they are brilliant. I have and still do have the orange light come on when listening to music on these never when I watch a film.
thank you for the advice I know we have gone around In circles. I think bang and olufsen speakers offer me the projection that annoys me, and if not hay I will just repair them and if I have to buy another pair and have four running. I don't play music loud that often anymore maybe once every three months, it's the occasion I leave the room and someone turns the music up or a bassy song comes on that at the same volume causes a problem.
for example if you have some punchy dance track on and the next track is will-I-am or chris brown for example the heavy base is to much.
Have a great day.
There are at least two types of thermal shutdown, one where the amp is overheating and shuts down to protect itself until the temp drops, another which is used in newer B&O products, which is they shut down if the voice coil is overheating in the speaker driver. There are lots of different protection approaches, distortion being one of them, but the good point is B&O uses such to protect the speakers and amps from abuse. Still, even though you won't damage things as you might without such aids it's still a bummer if your system goes down right as you're getting your dance groove really on.
Sorry about the pedantic thing, I'm a grump old man and it was late, we seem to have a terminology mismatch with respect to protection, thermal shutdown, etc.
I'm personally glad B&O doesn't follow the typical audiophile nonsense of insisting that any form of protection is evil and acts like a "veil" over the music and other assorted nonsense. I remember back in the day when LPs ruled the day, we had a customer who had a largish pair of Cerwin Vega speakers, and a Harman Kardon Citation 16 amp. Nominally 150 w/ch, but with huge dual power supplies, that amp could dump about 5 times the power for a few milliseconds until it drained the power supply capacitors. This guy had the gain turned up about max and dropped the tonearm on the record, which compresses the cantilever and gave a nice 1/2 to 1 Hz subsonic whoomp that the amp, being direct coupled, passed with great aplomb. I came into the shop, and was looking at the back of one of the speakers on the workbench the tech was working on, and the speaker had a horn with a phenolic hard dome driver on the back. I did a double take as the dome was cracked in two. I mentioned it and the tech said you're gonna love this, look at the front. These huge 12 inch woofers with large voice coils had the dust cover over the voice coil completely missing, and the voice coils blown completely out of the driver like a Slinky. It also blew up the compression driver for the horn, and exploded every cap in the crossover network.
Sometimes it's good to protect gear against the user.
Maybe a pair of Pentas and a pair of BL2s are the answer. By playing around with the xover point and settings of the BL2 you should be able to get a decent integration, and also playing with location on the 2s.