ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
I finally took the plunge and bought the entire wireless set up - 18, 19, playmaker and transmitter.
I had discussed my integration needs at great length with my sales manager and anticipated a painless installation.
The equipment arrived as promised and I had lined up a team of professional Audio installers.
The first problem we encountered after we connected my brand new Samsung 8000 to the transmitter using the optical cable. The sound was at full strength and could not be regulated via the TV remote. I called the sales person who did some checking and then confirmed that indeed this is a potential problem with non-B&O TV's.
The workaround was to use a 3.5 mm connection at the TV and connect via RCA cable to the Playmaker. You can then control the sound at the Playmaker or use the remote of my old B&O 3200. For reason of immediacy we connected with the RCA cable, however, clearly this approach will yield considerable loss of audio quality.
The next issue was connecting the 3200 to the transmitter. The moment the 3200 was connected to the transmitter, the entire system came to a grinding halt. Net, net - you simply can't mix B&O and non B&O components at the transmitter.
I have discussed this at great length with the technical gurus of B&O and the really only way to solve this is to buy a 3rd party pre-amp and connect all components ( playmaker, TV sound and 3200 ) to the pre-amp and then run only one cable from the pre-amp to the transmitter.
I truly wish I had known up-front. Yes, I probably would still have purchased this system, but I would have been prepared and had everything in place. A lot better than trial and error and a lot of running around after you spend a great deal of money and one was full of anticipation and excitement.
The real world is not that most people have B&O TV's - in my opinion it is really unacceptable to launch an important new system that suffers from such substantial integration systems.
However, let me close on a positive note - the folks I have dealt with at B&O have gone out of their way to be helpful and the system looks and sounds just beautiful.
Glad to hear that it now works, and that you like the looks and the sound of your system,
But I can't help thinking that the 'team of professional Audio installers' maybe should have read the userguide before starting the job.
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
The issue of the system not integrating with non B&o TV and components is not covered in any manual. The b&o sales person did not know this was going to happen. This is a brand new system and it appears that some of intricate technical details aren't yet fully understood by all.
Sorry it was a hassle, but B&O addressed those 2 issues specifically in the installation guide. Too bad so many installers are too brilliant to RTFM. But not knowing that an optical is fixed-level unless it has an inboard pre-amp? Even I know that.
In order to mix B&O and Non-B&O inputs, you should be able to just flip the yes/no switch in the back of Transmitter 1 when going from one to the other. A pain, but it should work.
Better TVs have a variable audio output with internal speaker on/off switch, though they are getting fewer by the day.
Once again, if you buy an OPPO 103, you get a fantastic BluRay, a variable output pre-amp, multiple inputs, and a programmable remote.
Uh oh, to avoid a pissing contest, from the installation guide.
B&O INPUT
Remember to set the B&O INPUT switch to YES.
3rd party product using TOSLINK (S/P-DIF)
Connect 3rd party products to the BeoLab Transmitter 1 using TOSLINK cables. The volume of the signal must be adjusted from the audio system.
Remember to set the B&O INPUT switch to NO
Maybe I’m missing something here, but can you give me an example of an audio system where the volume is controlled by spdif? Sure I can lower the volume of an Apple TV for example in iTunes, but that wouldn't give me a bit perfect signal, would it?
I also can’t understand why B&O started with optical-in for their latest BL17/18. In practice, how would you daisy-chain 2 BL18’s in each corner of the room, fireplace in between, with a fiber cable? Why not coaxial like they did with the BL5? A lot easier to install. Cheaper too…
Also the BS9000, BC2 and BS5 with their coaxial spdif will send audio at a 100% volume. I thought these where were meant to feed Beolabs with digital inputs. You can’t use it to feed BL18's, even if you use coaxial-to-optical convertor. So where is B&O heading with these optical inputs?
symmes: Uh oh, to avoid a pissing contest, from the installation guide. B&O INPUT Remember to set the B&O INPUT switch to YES. 3rd party product using TOSLINK (S/P-DIF) Connect 3rd party products to the BeoLab Transmitter 1 using TOSLINK cables. The volume of the signal must be adjusted from the audio system. B&O INPUT Remember to set the B&O INPUT switch to NO
That was exactly what I was referring to in my post above!
There is even a paper version of the manual in the box with the Transmitter1.
@DoubleU
the 'optical connection-thing' with the new B&O gear is a mystery to me too.
Thank you all for your replies and input.
Reading some of your comments it is probable that some of you have direct connections to B&O, or are on the technical side of this business.
I am not a particularly technically savvy individual.
I am a customer, a successful business person who is willing to commit a great deal of money for something beautiful and enjoyable.
At the time of purchase in early December there were no manuals to look at - the first time manuals entered the picture was at delivery!
There was a long conversation with the B&O Sales Manager about what my needs and desires were and how did those match up with the capabilities of the wireless system.
I made it very clear that this system needed to be connected to my new "smart" TV and that this was not going to be a B&O tv and that I wanted the system also to be connected to my B&O 3200 and that I wanted to use my iTunes via AirPlay.
It would have been reasonable to hear from my b&O sales contact that if you use a non B&O TV you need to purchase a TV with variable external speaker volume control or failing that you need to buy a 3rd party pre-ampl.
Even better the dealer would have at his disposal a list of TV"s that fall into that category. For example none of the Samsung TV's have this but some of the Sony's do.
This information would have afforded me the opportunity of choice. The choice to buy the B&O system or not, and in my case which TV to buy.
To be perfectly frank I did not think I needed installers. It never came up during the purchase conversation that making this system work was so challenging that you needed installers.
My guys happen to be there to move my old and install my new TV and to hide all the cables behind the wall. They are a decent and generally competent bunch, but clearly not trained on the intricacies of B&O technology. However, even they could have walked on water, neither they or I knew or could have known about the TV connections issue and therefore did not have the right equipment in place - this needed to be addressed during the purchase conversation.
With regards to using the "B&O Input yes or no".
This is not an issue of B&O or not, it becomes an issue when it is B&O and 3rd party equipment. Proof: When I connect my B&O 3200 and the Playmaker, the wireless system does not work. When I unplug either one, the system works. This happens regardless of which position the switch is in.
This aspect also was not know by the Sales Representative at the time of purchase.
There is one other aspect I did not cover yesterday in my original post. For reasons of space efficiency I had placed my Playmaker on top of the Transmitter. I was unable to use the Air Play function from my iPhone/itunes. In investigating this further I discovered that as both units are wireless they interfere with each other. Proof: the moment I moved the Playmaker to a further location this problem went away.
Maybe this is also covered in the bowels of one of the manuals, however, I have not found it.
This then brings me to the last point. What Ferrari is to automobiles, B&O is to the world of audio.
Both of them provide pride of ownership and joy. Both are beautifully designed and made of exquisite material and have the ability to perform at the highest level. I am fortunate enough to own both and will add one other thing they have in common - the most useless and non-user friendly manuals in the Universe. I have suggested to Ferrari to take a paige out of the Mercedes manuals and I will suggest to B&O to take a lesson from Bose.
I am sure that the B&O manuals have all the technical terms and information needed - however, it is not delivered in a format that is readily understood by your average enthusiastic but not technnoguru customer. If this makes me an idiot - so be it! However, it is idiots like me who pay the bill!
I have recently installed a Bose system with sound bar in my office - what a breeze. And guess what - the TV using Optical Out worked perfectly well and can be controlled by the Bose remote.
Net, net - I look forward to many years of enjoyment and without doubt this issue will be resolved, it will just require more time and more money.
I also would like to re-iterate that the technical support folks at B&O are going out of their way to help me solve this issue
All of this frustration could have been avoided with more pro-active communication and information.
I hear you brother. The whole point is, if you bought the product from a B&O dealer you should expect a solution. That includes the ability to get competent installation, whether you do it yourself or anyone does it for you. That goes for BeoPlay or B&O, in my opinion. All the other stuff is noise.
I bought my wife jewelry at a nice shop which, for me, was pricey. They promised I would get an insurance statement in the mail by 1 January. Still waiting. Lovely jewelry, pissed about the silly little insurance letter. It's those things that often trigger my disappointment from high expectations. Easy to resolve, but I won't get back the time and energy it takes to do it.
I believe you have your system connected incorrectly. You should connect your Playmaker to your BeoSound 3200 with the Aux-out Cable to the Aux-in on your 3200 and control volume on the 3200 or vice versa using a Din-IN/OUT cable on the 3200. Set the PM to fixed audio out mode and and you can control it all through the 3200 or vice versa controlling through the PM.
You can't connect 2 PL masters at the same time to the Transmitter 1, only one or the other. Hence the strategy given above.
I also think you may have something else at play if you can not use the PlayMaker on top of the Transmitter 1. They don't ride the same frequencies, so interference shouldn't be an issue (in theory). I will say we have one PM on top of our Transmitter 1 in a shop five feet from the main wifi router and 57ft. ( you better believe we measured :) away is the BL17/19 combo that that Transmitter is connected to. We never have issues when demonstrating them.
Instructions on a Ferrari? Don't you just push ignition and press down on the pedal(s)!?!?!?
Ah, you know... A little B&O here, a little there
Remains only the problem with the sound from the tv.
With a tv with analog out or with digital out and a small DAC this could easily be arranged by connecting to the RCA/AUX input of the Playmaker (which is connected to the BS3200).
No big deal really!
Tifoso48: The first problem we encountered after we connected my brand new Samsung 8000 to the transmitter using the optical cable. The sound was at full strength and could not be regulated via the TV remote. I called the sales person who did some checking and then confirmed that indeed this is a potential problem with non-B&O TV's.
This isn't a limitation of "non-B&O" TV's ... it's a limitation of Samsung TVs. Read avsforums and you'll hear installers and customers alike complaining about it pretty regularly.
Millemissen: Remains only the problem with the sound from the tv. With a tv with analog out or with digital out and a small DAC this could easily be arranged by connecting to the RCA/AUX input of the Playmaker (which is connected to the BS3200). No big deal really! MM
Yes that would work, but I also have to admit it would be big deal to me. I’m counting 4 devices in between, before the sound of the TV is reaching the Beolabs.
Pana digital out > External DAC > PlayMaker > BS3200 > Transmitter > BL18/19
It's just not ideal to mix B&O and non-B&O products. The Transmitter is simply not meant to be used that way. A 3rd-party pre-amp with Airplay (forget the Playmaker) and enough digital and analog inputs, with just one cable to the transmitter is the best solution in this setup. But that’s my opinion.
DoubleU: Pana digital out > External DAC > PlayMaker > BS3200 > Transmitter > BL18/19
I would have no problems in using the Transmitter with the BS3500 (it is only wireless PowerLink).
What is connected to the BS3500, are just 'some sources'
The 'problem' is the Pana/the Pana sound - there probably would be some lipsync issues here.
So that would not be my advice for the setup.
As you might expect from my signature, I am certain that a BeoVision is the heart of a modern BeoSystem.
You can mix B&O with non B&O devices as long as the BeoVision is the center of it all.
I was only responding to your earlier advice, which was different…
Your latest response (2 last sentences) is more of a general kind and I fully agree with you. But it certainly does not apply for this topic.
First of all, there is no Beovision, "the heart of a modern Beosystem". So now you suggest to pass all the sources through the BS3200. Fair enough, but in my opinion the BS3200 is not the ideal product for this purpose. Not the least to say, the BS3200 will be outdated sooner or later.
Second of all. there are no lip-sync issues! As the topicstarter stated earlier, I have recently installed a Bose system with sound bar in my office - what a breeze. And guess what - the TV using Optical Out worked perfectly well and can be controlled by the Bose remote.
Adding a small DAC as you suggested, will probably create lip-sync issues. Let's say I'm just not a fan of adding small boxes with external adapters. A pre-amp that does it all, with only one cable to the Transmitter is what I would do. The BS3200 will degrade to just "some source", connected to the pre-amp.
Like I wrote in my first post: glad to hear that it is now working as intended.
@DoubleU,
Different ways to go - different advices!
Copy that MM!
I just checked the specs of the Marantz, NR1504 or 1604 right? It seems you made a right choice.
You can even take it a step further and use the DC-trigger or the USB of the Marantz to trigger the Beolabs. You need a special cable though to make the Transmitter ”think” there is B&O-input attached. There is some great stuff in the last page of the Peter Pan topic how to do that. In short, the Beolabs would normally go in standby after 3 minutes. But now they will go immediately in the red state, as soon as the Marantz goes in standby.
If someone (with a non-B&O tv) wants to go all digital, this:
https://www.sharpusa.com/ForHome/HomeEntertainment/Audio/wisa.aspx
could be a way to go - and he would have one 'small box' less
"the last page of the Peter Pan topic".
That is probably this page:
http://www.hifi4all.dk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=71963&PN=0&TPN=33
Saw that player earlier. Price seems a bit high. I think I would choose for a wired Oppo instead. Interesting technology though! Either way, it doesn’t really match in Mr. Tifoso48’s ’adventure’ if you read the very first post more carefully. ;)
Yes, that Danish page will work too, but I meant this topic. I really like the idea to take the 5V from the USB to trigger the Beolabs. Brilliant!
I made a thread about a similar setup (see my signature) a while ago.
Maybe it helps: Howto setup a NON B&O amplifier with Beolabs (3.1 or 5.1 surround setup with Pioneer Kuro + Pioneer AVR
Link: http://archivedforum2.beoworld.org/forums/p/2420/20863.aspx
Ralf
Living Room: Beosystem 4, Beolab 7-2 (Center), Beolab 9 (Fronts), Beolab 8000 (Rears), no Subwoofer. Screen: Sony KD-85XH9096Dining Room: Beosound Essence MK II with Beolab 4000 on stands, fed by Amazon Echo Show 8Home Cinema: Beosystem 4, Beolab 7-4 (Center), Beolab 1 (Fronts), Beolab 4000 (Rears). Projector: Sony VPL-HW55Home Office: Beosystem 3, Beolab 7-4, Beolab 5000, Screen: Sony KD-55XH9005 on Beovision 7-40 stand, ML to Beosound 9000 MK3 and Beosound 5/Beomaster 5 (1 TB SSD version)Bedroom: Sony KD-65XH9077, Beosound Essence MK II with Beolab 6002 and Beolab 11 (all white, wall-mounted)
In storage: Beolab 5000/Beomaster 5000 (1960s).
Can't read any Danish myself, haha. This is the picture I meant.
The 8pin powerlink must be the RJ45 type for the Transmitter. The minijack must be an RCA-connector.
Unfortunatly the 1504 doesn't have a trigger output on the back, so USB is a good alternative. Too bad it's on the front.
You can even buy these adapters - if you are not into DIY:
http://www.av-connection.dk/?Language=UK&PGr=6497&ML=2126