ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Hello BeoWorld,
A while ago I sourced a pair of BV2600's as an added speaker alternative to my vintage BeoSystem. This particular model of speaker does not seem to be very popular in the Beo-World and after a quick and informal survey of you, the members, you indicated that I should indeed publish a refurb thread on the 2600.
With some spare time this evening I am going to kick off such a project starting with the crossover. I am going to try and post this as I progress tonight to keep you lot entertained. So, without further delay, sit back, relax crank up your music and enjoy the show!
Beo4 'til I die!
To start off this project right, I have sourced ALL of the necessary parts before the project.
Here is the equipment. For those of you that have a pair of 2600s and want to refresh the crossover, you will need 25uF and 8uF capacitors as well as a 2.2ohm resistor.
I have sourced the following:
(2) 25uF 400VDC +/-5% Solen Cap(2) 8.2uF 250V ERSE Pulse X Cap (8.0 not available)(2) 2R2 10W Lynk Resistor
I ordered the above (as well as many others..) from Meniscus Audio. I have to give them honorable mention as they have yet again exceeded my expectations in customer service. I will admit I ordered relatively cheap components and the 8.2uF cap I originally selected (a unit that cost $0.80) was out of stock. They did not keep me waiting and instead substituted that one for a unit that cost roughly 6 times more. A small gesture, but one worth mentioning as I will not have to wait for components that are out of stock as I would if I were shopping anywhere else!
Also, the guys at Meniscus are nice enough to include candy. I have already eaten almost all of it and there is one left, saving this for later!
On the far right are a pair of DIN2 plugs to re-terminate the speaker wires with as the original owner did not use a BeoMaster with this pair of 2600's.
First off is the easy part, removing the frets. I have to say, these are the easiest B&O frets to remove!! Easy enough to remove with one hand! They are attached with some super strength hook and loop and will require some strength. Don't be afraid to apply your strength, the fret is mostly made up of metal and will take the abuse.
And here they are! I have high expectations for these speakers, they have all the right ingredients - a giant tweeter, woofer (with a rubber edge roll!!!!) and the most solid cabinets I have ever owned - 0.75" all around!
And here is our port of entry, the woofer screws.
A word of warning about the fasteners, they are aluminum. As a consequence, they are very soft and will be easy to damage, so be gentle removing and replacing these.
EDIT: Aluminum? I must have been properly tired or something to miss the giant spot of RUST! Aluminum - yeah right.
Here is the woofer out of its home. It seems the B&O engineers were kind enough to spec a long enough amount of wire so that removing and replacing the woofer would not require desoldering the connections causing a large hassle.
Show your tools Evan, there are folks out there that never done this, and want to learn, besides this is the first bench thread for a long time, we are all watching
Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.
Inside the cabinet you will find enough stuffing to fill a mattress!
I hate that gray stuff, be careful with the glass fiber, it yucks if on your skin, keep it well into the bags.
Søren Mexico: Show your tools Evan, there are folks out there that never done this, and want to learn, besides this is the first bench thread for a long time, we are all watching
Yes, of course, how could I forget the tools!!
Ahem, here they are...
All that is needed are standard household hand tools such as screw drivers, pliers, a soldering iron and fresh solder wire. If you want to get fancy and create a photo thread like this, you will of course need a camera as well!
Anyway... where was I...
Oh right the crossover!
Evan:you will of course need a camera as well!
Instead of a Nikon N60 I suggest a digital, the rolls from the N60 takes time to convert to digital.
For someone so young you have a great collection of vinyl records (from rock's good years).
On this crossover recap - are you going to do just one speaker first and compare the sound to the other speaker? If you do set your music source to mono and see if you can hear a difference. I tried that on my Beovox S55's but I replaced the electrolytics with new electrolytics and couldn't really tell a difference. I thought I did at first but as I listened to them more I couldn't tell them apart. You are replacing the electrolytics with newer, fancier caps that I am interested in. So if you have time I would like to know what you hear.
sonavor: For someone so young you have a great collection of vinyl records (from rock's good years). On this crossover recap - are you going to do just one speaker first and compare the sound to the other speaker? If you do set your music source to mono and see if you can hear a difference. I tried that on my Beovox S55's but I replaced the electrolytics with new electrolytics and couldn't really tell a difference. I thought I did at first but as I listened to them more I couldn't tell them apart. You are replacing the electrolytics with newer, fancier caps that I am interested in. So if you have time I would like to know what you hear.
Me too, same experience with my S45 2 way
Søren Mexico: Evan:you will of course need a camera as well! Instead of a Nikon N60 I suggest a digital, the rolls from the N60 takes time to convert to digital.
I agree! Which is why I have chosen to use a D60!
Hi John,
That is an interesting test that didn't cross my mind. I will try it but it may be of no use - The speakers had unequal outputs before the crossover work and I did not mark the problem speaker. So, the test may be completely useless, it will be a matter of luck. Regardless I will give it a try for you. In fact, most of the motivation for this project was to correct the unequal output issue. As far as the caps and their fanciness, yes, they are fancy, but not in the price department. The 6 pieces in total cost $34.46 including shipping, which to me is cheap.
I will say though, I noticed differences with the RL60.2s I refurb'ed with member Todd last summer. But I will say more about this later.. Time to hook these babies up!
By the way sorry for the delay everyone, I was on a role and didn't want to ruin my momentum.
At any rate, back to the thread!
Here is the crossover board. Pretty basic animal here.
The unit is freed with the removal of the two small phillips head wood screws.
To make things easier, desolder the speaker wire from the back of the board. In the picture you can see that the top lead has the polarity marking. Keep note of this as you will need to recall this later during reassembly.
To start with the disassembly, begin by removing the component legs from the small slots on the board.
Here are all of the (necessary) components off of the board, ready to be desoldered.
Here are the new and old 25uF capacitors side by side. There is a marked difference between the size which will require some creative packaging.
Here is the old board in the middle of deconstruction. I progressively assembled and disassembled both the old and new components in order to stay on track.
And here is the new system being assembled on the other corner of the speaker. Here you can see the awkward size of the resistor is causing another set of issues, this time with the legs and the solder joint.
Here is the final product!
There you can see the difficult four-point solder - not very proud of this joint but it is working, all connections are solid.
At this point it is a good idea to add some hot glue between the capacitors and the board to keep the from rattling around. After all, they sit directly behind the woofer.
The refreshed board is now installed.
All that is left to do is hot glue the speaker wire (strain relief) as it exits the enclosure, replace the stuffing and then the bass driver.
Wash, rinse, repeat (for speaker number two).
Evan: Anyway... where was I... Oh right the crossover!
That's all there is? Where's the rest?
How much did you paid for the caps Evan? Again my compliments for this new picturized thread.
Still I have my doubts if you can really hear the difference after recapping. Must try such a project with all my Beovoxes I own. Please continue....
Brengen & Ophalen
Leslie: That's all there is? Where's the rest? How much did you paid for the caps Evan? Again my compliments for this new picturized thread. Still I have my doubts if you can really hear the difference after recapping. Must try such a project with all my Beovoxes I own. Please continue....
Yep, that's it! The 2600 is a very simple two-way speaker. Makes for a great weekend project.
I paid 34.46 USD including shipping.
Well, not every recap is the same. For this case, the change was significant. One speaker had a notably lower output in the treble section and after the refresh it is back to normal! Right on par with the other speaker. I measured both of the resistors as well as the brand new ones I just installed and all measured 2.5 ohms exactly. Now having eliminated the resistors as the problem, the problem is clearly the caps. The value of electrolytic capacitors changes as they age (they essentially lose their ability to hold a capacitance). These speakers are between 40 and 43 years old and fresh new capacitors has definitely helped their case.
OK, so I finished them up a few minutes ago and have also raised them up onto the S45-2s. As I said above, the problem of unequal output has been resolved. I am very grateful caps is all it took, I wouldn't have had the patience to find another driver like Todd and I had to last year. At any rate, I must say - these speakers are wonderful! Very soft and laid back tone, but also very capable in the bass department if your in that kind of mood. Here at my house it is 2:40AM and the rest of the family is asleep so I can't really open them up until tomorrow. Low level listening is still very enjoyable!
As for the argument about sonic improvement with fancy new caps, I really can't say as I wasn't able to do a proper evaluation of the speakers before hand. I can, however, definitively say that a sonic problem has been resolved by the replacement of the capacitors.
Until tomorrow, happy listening!
Congrats on a job well done. One thing about the new polypropylene caps is they should never require changing.
Good job Evan, today maybe you can turn them up a bit, to burn in and test.
Leslie: How much did you paid for the caps Evan? Again my compliments for this new picturized thread. Still I have my doubts if you can really hear the difference after recapping. Must try such a project with all my Beovoxes I own. Please continue....
I wanted to use Solen caps for my 3702, but the price for 8 caps was over USD 100.00, so I choose to use caps from Martin.
I tested one speaker with new caps and resistors, against the other one with the old caps, and it was like the old one was playing through a thick carpet, the one with new cap fresh and crisp and the lows distinct and clear without distortion or "booming". I even tested the speakers without the gray felt stuff, booming and harsh the sound, put in some felt used for quilting, white, fluffy and polyester, it did sound better but still booming in the lows, the original felt gave the best sound.
As Leslie I don't think I will be able to hear a diff. between expensive film caps and cheap electrolytic. Still waiting for someone to come up with a test. The test should include the ESR values from the old caps, new electrolytic, new film caps.
Todd:"Evman, back at the workbench in "True Form" As Leslie says..."my compliments as well" Kinda takes me back! Looks like 2600's will sing well!
Yes, it has been a while since I have been to the workbench, so I thought I would knock out a project. I knew it would be a small one but it makes me feel much better having accomplished it - one less project on the list!!
As for singing, its what they were meant to do! They are no S45-2, but definitely have their advantages!
sonavor: Congrats on a job well done. One thing about the new polypropylene caps is they should never require changing.
Thanks, John. It was a relatively easy job, but I don't want to do it again!
As for the recapped and original test, I did not forget about you. Unfortunately luck was not working in our favor and I had refurb'ed the better off speaker. The speaker still in original form was indeed the one with considerably less output.
Even though I had little previous listening time with them, I can definitely say there is a difference. These speakers are different animals now, I highly recommend that you recap your speakers - you will hear a difference. Look out for a proper review soon.
Søren Mexico: Good job Evan, today maybe you can turn them up a bit, to burn in and test.
Thanks, Søren! Now the house is empty and the testing can begin!
Starting off this listening session:
I recommend Meniscus as well. I met Mark at his house back in the summer of 1987 when I built my first set of speakers. I've spent at least $1000 with him over the years, maybe two grand.
As for electrolytics versus polypropylene, I have some experience. I currently have two pairs of Beovox M70s. Pair number one in my main listening room has had the damping material replaced, all the resistors replaced, and all the electrolytic capacitors replaced with Solen polypropylene capacitors. I'm sure Evan and Soren remember that thread from last year on the old forum ("the thread that won't die"). Pair two, currently in the garage system, I haven't touched. (I bought them to be potential parts donors for my main pair. Haven't needed any parts yet, except for the frets.)
In side by side comparison, pair number one (refurbished) has a more laid-back, effortless quality to it. Pair number two is perhaps brighter. Both pairs are pleasing to listen to, but there is clearly a difference. In a quasi-ABX test both my wife and I could identify the unknown every time.
Rich:In side by side comparison, pair number one (refurbished) has a more laid-back, effortless quality to it. Pair number two is perhaps brighter. Both pairs are pleasing to listen to, but there is clearly a difference. In a quasi-ABX test both my wife and I could identify the unknown every time.
Thats good to hear, new caps do make a difference, now we need to know if there are differences to hear between cheap electrolytic and expensive film caps.
But the difference Rich mentioned wasn't bad versus good. It seems like a speaker recap is no guarantee to improve the sound. On my S55 recap I didn't hear any improvement. I didn't hear any sound degredation with the new caps either. So the comfort is knowing there are new electrolytic caps in the crossover and I don't have to worry about that being an issue. On the recent MS150 project I didn't bother trying the speakers with the crossovers as I received them because I felt those speakers had a number of problems I repaired already. So I recapped the crossovers before I listened to the MS150s for the first time (they still sound great now in the second week of listening to them). There were a lot of caps in the MS150 crossovers so it was easy to decide on using replacement electrolytics due to cost. In Evan's case, the recap did fix a problem in the loading of the speaker. It was definately necessary for performance reasons. My thinking is a crossover recap is probably a good idea for the same reason as recapping electrolytics in other vintage components. That is because the electrolytic caps aren't going to last forever and will need replacing eventually. The polypropylenes are a good replacement since they will probably never need replacing. However, once you get above 18uF they get pretty pricey (for crossovers with several capacitors to recap). So I let my pocketbook control what kind of replacement caps I try. It might sound like I would be skimping on producing an end result that is less than it could be but the original caps are electrolytic so I look at it as restoring the crossover to new condition.I do have a project on my to-do list where I have spare crossovers for a non-B&O speaker system. My plan is to be able to swap the crossover boards (old to new & new to old) and see if I can hear a difference. The current crossovers are original (from 1976) and still sound good. I have ordered polypropylene caps for the values up to 18uF and electrolytics for the 25uF and 33uF caps. So it will be interesting to hear that result. However, I have a couple of amplifier projects ahead of that I need to work on.
sonavor: The polypropylenes are a good replacement since they will probably never need replacing. However, once you get above 18uF they get pretty pricey (for crossovers with several capacitors to recap). So I let my pocketbook control what kind of replacement caps I try. It might sound like I would be skimping on producing an end result that is less than it could be but the original caps are electrolytic so I look at it as restoring the crossover to new condition.
The polypropylenes are a good replacement since they will probably never need replacing. However, once you get above 18uF they get pretty pricey (for crossovers with several capacitors to recap). So I let my pocketbook control what kind of replacement caps I try. It might sound like I would be skimping on producing an end result that is less than it could be but the original caps are electrolytic so I look at it as restoring the crossover to new condition.
The M70 required 9 capacitors per box, and if I recall correctly, there were two 50 uF, one 30 uF, and a 25 uF. It was not cheap. I know it was easily $100 in capacitors alone.
On the other hand, that was cheap compared to what finishing the M70 refurb caused me to do: buy a BM4000, BG4002, and CD X from Burantek!
As Evan alluded to above, the Solens do represent a real estate challenge as well. With the M70s, I had to discard the old board and break the crossover up into two parts.
Rich:The M70 required 9 capacitors per box, and if I recall correctly, there were two 50 uF, one 30 uF, and a 25 uF. It was not cheap. I know it was easily $100 in capacitors alone.
Here the Org. crossover from my 3702s, also here over USD 100.00 for fancy caps, so I choose not to. 2 x 75 uF, 25 uF, 12 uF and 5 uF, and I would have to make a new board as well.