ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
I didn't find quite the same kind of discussions elsewhere, so I thought I'd start a new thread. If the mods see fit to merge with an existing thread, please do so, and apologies.
Well, I posted in the North American forums that I've successfully achieved WAF (wife acceptance factor) on a new television (B&O obviously). After quite a few years having gotten out of the B&O scene after a dreadful experience with a BV8 which left me reeling. (that's another story).
In the next few months, I'll need to be making a decision: BV Avant or BV11.
We're far from rich, but we choose to spend money wisely, we both love music, so the television (with or without external speakers... I'll get to that later), will likely be used for music as well as video.
We'd like to get the most bang for our buck, but with more information coming out about the Avant's price points, it seems like the Avant + stand would break our budget for both a television and external speakers. Yet the BV-11 may still fit the bill.
I apologize for being long winded, but I'd like a B&O television with a motorized stand, as well as external speakers / sub.
I used to own the David Lewis Avant (in black) with a pair of floor standing BL3's + BL2, and it was an amazing sounding system.
Can I get something of the same with the current offering without breaking the $11-$12K budget?
We don't have a large living room, which is where the television will go, and we currently have a 50" Panasonic Plasma which is fine for what it does. I'll be getting selling my current setup to partially fund the new purchase (B&W CM9 / Rotel Receiver / Rotel Power Conditioner).
Thoughts? Opinions?
Also, I'm glad to be back here, seeing a few familiar names from a while back.
Sal
Sal:I didn't find quite the same kind of discussions elsewhere, so I thought I'd start a new thread. If the mods see fit to merge with an existing thread, please do so, and apologies. Well, I posted in the North American forums that I've successfully achieved WAF (wife acceptance factor) on a new television (B&O obviously). After quite a few years having gotten out of the B&O scene after a dreadful experience with a BV8 which left me reeling. (that's another story). In the next few months, I'll need to be making a decision: BV Avant or BV11. We're far from rich, but we choose to spend money wisely, we both love music, so the television (with or without external speakers... I'll get to that later), will likely be used for music as well as video. We'd like to get the most bang for our buck, but with more information coming out about the Avant's price points, it seems like the Avant + stand would break our budget for both a television and external speakers. Yet the BV-11 may still fit the bill. I apologize for being long winded, but I'd like a B&O television with a motorized stand, as well as external speakers / sub. I used to own the David Lewis Avant (in black) with a pair of floor standing BL3's + BL2, and it was an amazing sounding system. Can I get something of the same with the current offering without breaking the $11-$12K budget? We don't have a large living room, which is where the television will go, and we currently have a 50" Panasonic Plasma which is fine for what it does. I'll be getting selling my current setup to partially fund the new purchase (B&W CM9 / Rotel Receiver / Rotel Power Conditioner). Thoughts? Opinions? Also, I'm glad to be back here, seeing a few familiar names from a while back. Sal
Hi Sal, nice to see you back again. Our stories sound very similar as I also left B&O for a few years due to a bad experience and sold all my equipment off. I am now considering buying it all back again! If I go new, as I am still undecided, then the choice for me is also the same, the Avant or the BV11, possibly the 46" model which would be a better screen choice for my living space. I do like them both equally. The panels seemed different to me though somehow and surprisingly I was drawn more to the BV11 for picture quality. I assumed that the newer Avant would be better but I wasn't convinced on the day. I do love the gadgetry of the Avant of course but also like the clean design look of the BV11. I am probably not helping much here! I guess you need to keep checking them both out and go with your heart at the end of the day. Also depends how important 4k is to you. Its not to me, but then it would be a future proof solution which is always a good thing. My decision for the moment is to wait a couple of months for some reviews to surface for the Avant and then go from there. Never like to be an early adopter, just in case. Have been caught out a few times over the years on that front. Good luck to you, and its sensible and wise to spend money carefully; important to feel something is value for money to you, regardless of the asking price. All the best, Simon.
B&O products are V1-32, BS2, H95, E8 and an Essence remote.11-46 now replaced with Sony A90J 65”, Sony HT-A9, Sony UBP-X800M2 and Sony SRS-NS7.
Bv11 all the way , the new avant is pointless as there's nothing to watch in it and it isn't even ready for the new UHD when or if it arrives. No hdmi 2 etc. no hvec etc, if money's important you'd be better putting it on a horse.
For once bno are quite literally too far ahead if the game , and it's not really their fault !
The whole tv market is in a state of flux.
The_Beonic_Man: Hi Sal, nice to see you back again. Our stories sound very similar as I also left B&O for a few years due to a bad experience and sold all my equipment off. I am now considering buying it all back again! If I go new, as I am still undecided, then the choice for me is also the same, the Avant or the BV11, possibly the 46" model which would be a better screen choice for my living space. I do like them both equally. The panels seemed different to me though somehow and surprisingly I was drawn more to the BV11 for picture quality. I assumed that the newer Avant would be better but I wasn't convinced on the day. I do love the gadgetry of the Avant of course but also like the clean design look of the BV11. I am probably not helping much here! I guess you need to keep checking them both out and go with your heart at the end of the day. Also depends how important 4k is to you. Its not to me, but then it would be a future proof solution which is always a good thing. My decision for the moment is to wait a couple of months for some reviews to surface for the Avant and then go from there. Never like to be an early adopter, just in case. Have been caught out a few times over the years on that front. Good luck to you, and its sensible and wise to spend money carefully; important to feel something is value for money to you, regardless of the asking price. All the best, Simon.
Thanks, it is nice to be back. Obviously I haven't seen the Avant in the flesh yet, but my wife and I were briefly demoed a BV11 / BL18 combination and it knocked our socks off. The design is a classic, and dare I say, more "bulletproof" with no moving parts, even though the punch may not be there insofar as sound is concerned. I'll be spending quite a bit of time researching and making the wisest of decisions, as this purchase will last us for years, and we'd like to be wholly satisfied.
Time will tell, and I look forward to continuing to participate in these forums instead of being a lurker as I have been for a long time now.
Cheers!
Flappo: Bv11 all the way , the new avant is pointless as there's nothing to watch in it and it isn't even ready for the new UHD when or if it arrives. No hdmi 2 etc. no hvec etc, if money's important you'd be better putting it on a horse. For once bno are quite literally too far ahead if the game , and it's not really their fault ! The whole tv market is in a state of flux.
Thanks for your thoughts Flappo, to me 4K isn't nearly as important as build quality, design, etc. I already knew that B&O had picture quality / reproduction in spades, even the television which drove me away from B&O had great picture quality -- the rest of the package, not so much.
It is very easy to be seduced by the amazing orbital floor stand. I attended the launch presentation and thought the sound from the Avant on its own had the potential to be very (very) good when played at a less overblown level. This could make it a very satisfying standalone piece of equipment.
I think that most people would agree that both BV11 and Avant are very desirable. Your decision for a long-term purchase is which most closely matches your present and future requirements.
The overall size for 55" does not seem as dominant/ dominating as BV11 - which to me looses its classical simplicity when expanded beyond 46" and looks heavy.
Unless you need the real flexibility of viewing positions offered by the orbital stand, I would favour a wall mounted BV11, because I think the BV10/11 design is special.
Will the competitive pricing of the Avant bring reductions in the BV11 range in a few months? Unlikely? But worth waiting to see.
I think the avant should definitely be on your list and would really recommend seeing one in person, I also think the bv11 is an incredible sleek and above all performing product but since I've seen the new avant that would be the tv of choice for me.
it really doesn't seem as big and for me the sound quality blew me away it sounds a lot deeper and with more weight than the bv11. And i was taken aback by the picture quality which to my eyes was just the right amount of brightness with rich deep colours and a vast amount of detail in the picture.
Beoplay A2
I have a BV11 on a motorised wall hinge. It suits my wallspace and room layout, whereas the new Avant wouldn't.
i haven't heard the Avant, but its speaker spec looks much better than the BV11. Having said that, the BV11, when wall hinge mounted on a solid wall, seems to have a good bass range that's not actually much different from my old Avant or BV5.
All other things being equal it's the mounting options that provide the wow factor not available with other TV's. I really like the planetary base of the Avant, but you have to live with the fact that there will always be a 600 mm raised disk sticking out on the floor even when the TV is parked against the wall. A wall bracket or hinge with a completely clear floor is what currently suits me, as does a 40" screen. The BV11 is like a piece of art on the wall, not a TV screen. The Avant is what it is, a TV, but with a very clever floor stand.
Graham
vikinger: The BV11 is like a piece of art on the wall, not a TV screen. The Avant is what it is, a TV, but with a very clever floor stand. Graham
The BV11 is like a piece of art on the wall, not a TV screen. The Avant is what it is, a TV, but with a very clever floor stand.
I find this one of the most correct ways to describe the new avant
"Believe nothing you read and only half of what you see, let your ears tell you the truth."
Agree with the above mentioned; BV10-11 is a real piece of B&O art with timeless and unequalled design, (to me, the first since the timeless Beovision MX series) where I think of the new Avant as a rather conservative looking TV.
That's off course a highly personal view and a matter of taste, and it does not take in consideration tha technical aspects of both sets.
Chris: vikinger: The BV11 is like a piece of art on the wall, not a TV screen. The Avant is what it is, a TV, but with a very clever floor stand. Graham I find this one of the most correct ways to describe the new avant
Didn't you guys notice that the Avant can be put on the wall as well
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
I so concur with your observations about the aesthetics
I don't think that option has been missed in the overall visual comparison between the Avant and BV11
@Mille - My Mrs. would not allow me to put such a 'black hole' on the wall
Enjoy the music, Chris
Just leave it on - all the time, Chris!
The_Beonic_Man: Hi Sal, nice to see you back again. Our stories sound very similar as I also left B&O for a few years due to a bad experience and sold all my equipment off. I am now considering buying it all back again! If I go new, as I am still undecided, then the choice for me is also the same, the Avant or the BV11, possibly the 46" model which would be a better screen choice for my living space. I do like them both equally. The panels seemed different to me though somehow and surprisingly I was drawn more to the BV11 for picture quality.
Hi Sal, nice to see you back again. Our stories sound very similar as I also left B&O for a few years due to a bad experience and sold all my equipment off. I am now considering buying it all back again! If I go new, as I am still undecided, then the choice for me is also the same, the Avant or the BV11, possibly the 46" model which would be a better screen choice for my living space. I do like them both equally. The panels seemed different to me though somehow and surprisingly I was drawn more to the BV11 for picture quality.
As I explained in another thread, this is because the Avant has a 4K panel with much larger pixel count, so SD, regular HD has to be upscaled and you see all the flaws in the original recording. Although the Avant has a 'better' and more modern panel, the BV11 doesn't need to upscale so heavily, so regular HD will look better on the BV11.
The Avant comes in to it's own with upscaled 1080P Blu-ray or (rare) 4K. Only these two sources truly take advantage of the new panel.
If I was choosing between a BV11 and Avant, but only wanted a 40 or 46", I'd ask the dealer if he can do a better deal on the current BV11.
I love the Avant, but I'd truly miss the colour frets and, as people say above, the unique design of the BV10/11. Looks like a piece of art, particularly on the wall - my BV10-32 looks amazing in the kitchen and everyone notices it.
moxxey:As I explained in another thread, this is because the Avant has a 4K panel with much larger pixel count, so SD, regular HD has to be upscaled and you see all the flaws in the original recording. Although the Avant has a 'better' and more modern panel, the BV11 doesn't need to upscale so heavily, so regular HD will look better on the BV11.
And as explained in another thread, this is not how upscaling works.
As a greatly simplified example, let's have two same physical size screens, where one has double the resolution in both horizontal and vertical direction; we'll call them "1K" and "4K". The latter just has four pixels to show the same blotch of source material, whereas the former only has one. They are still showing exactly the same picture!
As I said, this is simplified. The better resolution screen can actually do a much better job than just multiplying pixes (which is usually not possible anyway, because the panel resolution rarely matches any multiple of the source resolution). This is a very well researched area of CS and digital signal processing. It isn't that much different from altering the sample rate of digital audio (a one dimensional problem), which can be done totally transparently.
The real problems lie in deinterlacing of the source material if it happens to be interlaced video (most SD content is). Unless there are limitations with processing power, the denser target display will actually allow better quality upscaling, not worse as you seem to think.
Practice can of course show various problem cases and there are bad implementations, but upscaling per se does not "bring out flaws in the original recording" any more than you would see watching the same thing on a same size SD screen.
--mika
If you're going for a 55 screen why not go the whole hog and get a projector ?
At least the projector will visually disappear when it's off , a huge black oblong won't.
Flappo:If you're going for a 55 screen why not go the whole hog and get a projector ?
Useless blacks unless you want to watch in complete darkness. Not an alternative to a "smaller" TV, IMHO.
I have a BV11-55. If I did not have it, i would go with the Avant. At the end of the day there is a new 4K panel that based on the comments would deliver a better PQ. The sound technology also seems to have been updated, but have not done a comparison between the two. And it is more or less the same price as the BV11. There are some minor problems with BV11 PQ, which I am hoping would disappear with the Avant. On the other hand if you are very keen on the BV1 design, you will not be disappointed with the 55. When watching BR the 11-55 does deliver a cinematic experience. The sound is superb on the 11-55, with deep bass, , and superior to the 11-46 sound. I originally went into the store to buy a 11-46, but came out with the 11-55 based on the sound difference.
Today I have BL1's attached, and it provides nice depth to the sound. No need for subwoofer. Eventually i would like to have a full surround mode and probably would look at BV20s. It would be a pity to have such a nice TV (Avant or BV11) and not invest in a nice set of speakers (specially if you listen to music).
Hope this helps...
BV11-55, BS9000, BL1, BL19, Transmitter 1, Beo4, Beocom 6000, BeoTalk1 200, Sennheiser HD600, McIntosh MHA100
tournedos: moxxey:As I explained in another thread, this is because the Avant has a 4K panel with much larger pixel count, so SD, regular HD has to be upscaled and you see all the flaws in the original recording. Although the Avant has a 'better' and more modern panel, the BV11 doesn't need to upscale so heavily, so regular HD will look better on the BV11. And as explained in another thread, this is not how upscaling works.
And we'll have to agree to disagree.
When the BV7-40 MKII was launched, SD looked decent on the "big" 40" panel as it was wasn't a 1080p screen. As soon as B&O moved to the MKIII, with the 1080p panel, complaints were flowing. Suddenly SD had to be upscaled and, as a result, looked blocky with lots of flaws. I remember at the time, people wishing they hadn't upgraded as HD channels were few and far between.
Same with a Retina MacBook Pro. The upside is, when websites were scaled up using 2x images and fonts, everything looked crisp and neat. Non-retina applications and images, looked blocky and poor a result. Browsers do a reasonable job of upscaling non-retina images, but upscaling is never the same as native, and you still see the flaws.
With the new 4K panel, SD will have to be upscaled to an even higher pixel panel, thus flaws will even more obvious.
You can see this for yourself, theory or not. Just walk in to your dealer and look at an average channel on SD on the Avant. It's not as good as the BV11's 1080p panel, for obvious scaling reasons. HD is fine, upscaled 1080P true HD is superb, native 4K is stunning.
I agree with moxxey
Yes, I'm theoretizing (is that a word?) and you're speaking of specific examples. I didn't say bad implementations don't exist, quite the contrary.
I could have made my post shorter by saying: if you see bad upscaling, it is not caused by more available target pixels.
moxxey:Same with a Retina MacBook Pro. The upside is, when websites were scaled up using 2x images and fonts, everything looked crisp and neat. Non-retina applications and images, looked blocky and poor a result. Browsers do a reasonable job of upscaling non-retina images, but upscaling is never the same as native, and you still see the flaws.
So you have just proven that an image with 2x resolution looks better than a 1x image at the same physical size. I believe everybody knew that?
moxxey:With the new 4K panel, SD will have to be upscaled to an even higher pixel panel, thus flaws will even more obvious.
I simply cannot understand where that comes from. A one millimeter "flaw" will be a one millimeter flaw, no matter how many pixels you use to represent it. It doesn't become any more or less apparent.
It's more complicated than that.
Upscaling a 720p to 1080 pixels is not easy, you have to 'redistribute' the content over more pixels and it's not easy. But going from 1080 to 2160 is a lot easier, it's 'just' doubling in all directions. (well, it's more than that, but that doesn't matter for making this point)
Say you have three pixels, with three distinct colors (say red, green and blue, in that order next to each other), and you have to show them on a screen with more pixels, say 4 pixels, you'll have to be very clever to give the middle two pixels the right color! can't really make them red or blue, or both green, as there would be too much green in the middle. You'll have to interpolate and give them both a color between red and green, and green and blue, and the result will have to look green in the middle. Upscaling in that context may lead to 'worse' images.
But it's another story when upscaling full HD to 4K. This corresponds to displaying the three pixels mentioned above on a screen with six pixels, which is a lot easier!
Beolit 12 - Beolab 4 pc (dead now) - Beoplay H5 - Beolab 9 - BeoRemote One BT - Beoplay M3
Except for the possibility to show 4K content it has a real center speaker which no other BV has except for BV12 in the current models. If you look at Geoff´s session about the Avant sound system you see that (one) center speaker makes a lot of difference. That is one thing, it also has the moving stand, its more discrete and interesting with moving speakers. So I would not say the Avant is pointless in any way. It is also cheaper than the BV11.
Beolab 50, Beolab 8000 x 2, Beolab 4000 x 2, BeoSound Core, BeoSound 9000, BeoSound Century, BeoLit 15, BeoPlay A1, BeoPlay P2, BeoPlay H9 3rd Gen, BeoPlay H6, EarSet 3i, BeoVision Eclipse Gen 2 55", BeoPlay V1-40, BeoCom 6000 and so much else :)
The bv11 is a work of art , typical bno , very David Lewis
The new avant looks like a cluster**** in comparison
Sorry , but a bose speaker under the screen doesn't do much for me
And don't forget that BV11 is old now. It will probably also get a 4K screen soon. And I am sorry but I think moxxey´s reasoning about scaling is a bit dated. Old BV7 with 1080p panels perhaps scaled up in a "bad" way. You can do scaling in many ways and without a lot of problems. I look at SD content regularly on my 55" 1080p panel and it looks very nice, it just have to be scaled appropriately. Comparing it to a retina macbook pro screen is completely useless! For example: Apple just do pixel doubling on apps because on a computer you don't want to have the picture adjusted to look better, you want the "real" deal. The most real thing then is to just pixel double = looks horrible. BUT(!!) if you would play a video on a retina macbook pro with VLC for example, the picture would be interpolated and scaled in a smarter way and it looks really good. I know, because I stare into my 15" MacBook Pro Retina screen for many hours every day and have done so for a long time now.
Flappo: The bv11 is a work of art , typical bno , very David Lewis The new avant looks like a cluster**** in comparison Sorry , but a bose speaker under the screen doesn't do much for me
Just because something is 'old' doesn't mean it's crap , look at the beosystem 8000
I hope you have lots of fun with your 4k tv
Let me know when you find any native 4k sources worth watching
Flappo: Just because something is 'old' doesn't mean it's crap , look at the beosystem 8000 I hope you have lots of fun with your 4k tv Let me know when you find any native 4k sources worth watching
I did not say old was crap. I said that the BV11 is old now and that it probably will get a 4K screen very soon to. So the choice between Avant / 11 is going to be about other things. Avant:Better sound, real center speaker.Interesting stand, that moves closer to youDoesn't look as big as a BV11Just to name a few.
I'm glad you're happy with it.
Personally I think I'll wait for mk2
That'll probably be 8k
Flappo: I'm glad you're happy with it. Personally I think I'll wait for mk2 That'll probably be 8k
I have not received the set yet but I am sure I will be happy with it. I enjoy new technology and being an early adopter is both fun and thrilling, supporting technology and progress.
I remember when I got my first full hd-tv and people just said it was so unnecessary (you can't see the difference between 720p and 1080p etc). It will always be like this.
I wish you the best of luck with it , I think it's a very nice bit of kit.
It's just a shame that there's nothing to really show it off to it's full potential.
If we had 4k blu ray or 4k hdtv or 4k itunes I might have a different attitude.
Hook a mac pro up to it , only 4k item worth buying imo.
Flappo: I wish you the best of luck with it , I think it's a very nice bit of kit. It's just a shame that there's nothing to really show it off to it's full potential. If we had 4k blu ray or 4k hdtv or 4k itunes I might have a different attitude. Hook a mac pro up to it , only 4k item worth buying imo.
Thanks, I agree!I know. There is few sources for 4K but there are content actually! Most movies are shot in 4K - altough not distributed widely this might change with streaming (I am fortunate to have a fiber connection). I have a MacBook Pro Retina 2013 and it supports 4K and will do it better with Mac OS X 10.9.3 soon to be released. I can probably view 4K content that way. The Mac Pro is a bit to expensive , even if it would look funny having it on the stand under the screen!Most of the viewing I do is full-hd today and being able to watch 4K is a bonus. I rarely watch tv broadcasts anymore (commercial, commercial and more commercials). If it is blocky, this is almost a good thing in a way .
Do not rush with 4k TV !
The ultra high definition 8k exist in Japan.
The NHK is experimenting it actively.
The 4k will have a very short life.
Buy the TV you like and not specifications.
BeoBoy68: Buy the TV you like and not specifications.
Very true, though future proofing (as much as one can sensibly do so), is definitely a practical concern with a not so insignificant investment. But then again, I have never seen a 4K video, and 1080p is just fine for my eyes. Who knows what the future will hold.
Sal: We'd like to get the most bang for our buck, but with more information coming out about the Avant's price points, it seems like the Avant + stand would break our budget for both a television and external speakers. Yet the BV-11 may still fit the bill.
If you're talking about the same sizes (55") - then the new Avant with floorstand is still cheaper than a BV 11...
Prices at my local dealer: 55.000 DKKr for the new 55" Avant + 11.000 DKKr for the floorstand = 66.000 DKKr- while the price sign on the 55" BV 11 said: 79.995 DKKr