ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Two weeks with the new Avant and very disappointed with the viewing of SKY HD content. Viewing SKY 1 and Atlantic program's suffering judder and strange jerky panning movement. Giving watchers a headache.
Dealer trying best but hasn't heard of any issues. I think it is poor up scaling as fast moving pictures also judder
Anybody else suffering poor quality with SKY?
jbrown77:Two weeks with the new Avant and very disappointed with the viewing of SKY HD content. Viewing SKY 1 and Atlantic program's suffering judder and strange jerky panning movement. Giving watchers a headache.Dealer trying best but hasn't heard of any issues. I think it is poor up scaling as fast moving pictures also judderAnybody else suffering poor quality with SKY?
KMA
B&O product history since 1991: Ridiculously long to list in a signature.
KMA just trying that now initially seems better. Will test with some previous recordings that were poor. Thanks so much for advice.
jbrown77: KMA just trying that now initially seems better. Will test with some previous recordings that were poor. Thanks so much for advice.
You're very welcome
I've had this issue since receiving my Avant a few weeks ago now. Very poor handling of fast motion or people gesturing with their hands etc. On default settings I was shocked at how bad it was and I'm equally shocked how more people aren't noticing this. Compared to other TV's on the market, this is well below par.
The only improvement I've found was turning judder off, adaptive mode off, lowering the sharpness, lowering noise reduction, lowering contrast enhance. This made a huge improvement. BUT the weird judder, ghosting, fuzziness on some movement is still there, albeit not as bad. Right now I'm watching Wimbledon in HD and every so often as the players are running around, they suddenly go all blurry and juddery for a second. My B&O dealer has the same issues with his Avant. I really hope this will be a software fix.
Also it's not just Sky HD. It is an issue with the TV. I have the same motion problems watching Sky HD, Apple TV and Bluray from PS4 & PS3.
Solidsnake:I've had this issue since receiving my Avant a few weeks ago now. Very poor handling of fast motion or people gesturing with their hands etc. On default settings I was shocked at how bad it was and I'm equally shocked how more people aren't noticing this. Compared to other TV's on the market, this is well below par. The only improvement I've found was turning judder off, adaptive mode off, lowering the sharpness, lowering noise reduction, lowering contrast enhance. This made a huge improvement. BUT the weird judder, ghosting, fuzziness on some movement is still there, albeit not as bad. Right now I'm watching Wimbledon in HD and every so often as the players are running around, they suddenly go all blurry and juddery for a second. My B&O dealer has the same issues with his Avant. I really hope this will be a software fix. Beovision Avant 55, Beolab 8000, Beolab 6000, Apple TV 3, Playstation 4, Playstation 3, Sky HD
Beolab 50, Beolab 8000 x 2, Beolab 4000 x 2, BeoSound Core, BeoSound 9000, BeoSound Century, BeoLit 15, BeoPlay A1, BeoPlay P2, BeoPlay H9 3rd Gen, BeoPlay H6, EarSet 3i, BeoVision Eclipse Gen 2 55", BeoPlay V1-40, BeoCom 6000 and so much else :)
Solidsnake: I've had this issue since receiving my Avant a few weeks ago now. Very poor handling of fast motion or people gesturing with their hands etc. On default settings I was shocked at how bad it was and I'm equally shocked how more people aren't noticing this. Compared to other TV's on the market, this is well below par. The only improvement I've found was turning judder off, adaptive mode off, lowering the sharpness, lowering noise reduction, lowering contrast enhance. This made a huge improvement. BUT the weird judder, ghosting, fuzziness on some movement is still there, albeit not as bad. Right now I'm watching Wimbledon in HD and every so often as the players are running around, they suddenly go all blurry and juddery for a second. My B&O dealer has the same issues with his Avant. I really hope this will be a software fix.
There may well be an issue with the Avants processing, but the thing you describe in Wimbleton could also be the source. Sometimes if there is a bandwidth hiccup or such, or the processor doing the compression and encoding of the raw video feed at the transmit end, moving objects will blur, pixelate, or show other anomalies. Usually this is an artifact of only a small part of the picture that's moving. Or it could still be the TV, it's very hard to tell unless you have a second video display to real time compare to.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Maab:...Maybe these issues are related with the nature of the panels having hard time upscaling to 4k?
I'd also assume this is the issue.
I've wheeled out this before, but I still remember the 'issues' B&O experienced with their first 1080P panel, in the BV7-40. The MK2 had a certain way of handling content, then they switched to a (MK3) BS3-powered 1080P-panelled model and, suddenly, regular SD had upscaling issues, panning resulted in missing frames and much more.
It's clearly not a 'panel issue' though, it's more of a software-processing issue, as the input has to be upscaled on-the-fly to the 4K panel. The reason for mentioning the BV7-40 MK3, is that the same problem (upscaling to the new 1080P panel) was a result of software-processing. Remember, that whatever hardware you have installed (BS3, BS4 etc), it's only as ever as good as the software drivers written to take advantage of the hardware!
B&O did fix these problems, to be fair, but it took months before the panning issue was resolved via a software update.
Watching at native resolution wiould probably help.
Good luck finding anything in 4k. Lol.
I thought wimbledon or the World Cup was gong to be in 4k this year !?
You think bno have problems , I can se sony going bankrupt before the year end , this won't help.
100Hz for the Avant is the lowest spec 4K on the market. Everyone is doing 600, 1000 with Panasonic doing 2000Hz. Was offering 100Hz is HUGE cost saving for B&O whilst allowing them to make a huge profit? The minute I checked the specs, it just didn't sound right to me!
Paul W: 100Hz for the Avant is the lowest spec 4K on the market. Everyone is doing 600, 1000 with Panasonic doing 2000Hz. Was offering 100Hz is HUGE cost saving for B&O whilst allowing them to make a huge profit? The minute I checked the specs, it just didn't sound right to me!
Paul, come on. Are you just making some random silly assumptions there?
Panasonic have their own way of measuring their panels, hence the 600/1000/2000Hz rating you see unique to Panasonic. Their 600Hz is the same as the BV11 200Hz, as an example.
I've always been told the 200Hz issue isn't an issue on modern panels. That's not the reason for the Avant juddering etc. In the same way you don't get these issues on a 100Hz BV10. Have you watched sports on a BV10? I'm watching football now on my BV10-32, with a 100Hz panel, and it's as clear, crisp and judder-free as you'd expect and want it to be. In fact, more so than my 200Hz BV11.
One word of advice on writing comments about any company where these comments might prove detrimental to future sales: make sure you get your facts right first. In the UK, you can now be held personally liable for your comments, along with the owners of this board. So stating that B&O has used the 'lowest spec 4K on the market' and cross-referencing Panasonic's marketing-speak, has to be factually correct, not an assumption.
I just found out they ARE broadcasting the World Cup in 4k
Only thing is you have to go to a sony shop to see it. ,!!!
The list of stores that will begin showing the World Cup in 4K are:
Crrrrrrrrrazy ! So buy our tvs but you can't actually watch anything on them at home......
Flappo: Crrrrrrrrrazy ! So buy our tvs but you can't actually watch anything on them at home......
You really have an almost unfathomable obsession with Avant users only buying the TV to watch 4K (or a lack of it). Very odd.
I just find it fascinating how gullible some people are.
Thanks for the info Moxxey. I'm simply using freedom of speech and telling the truth when it comes to my observation of competitors refresh rates. LG is 200, Sony is 600 and Panasonic 2000! Samsung is 600 upwards that's all. Surely all of you complaining continuously about your products that are always not performing as they should is way more damaging to B&O. And yet you guys are stupid or so material obsessed to keep on buying the brand!
I enjoy reading the forum from time to time and try and point out why something may not be performing. But I don't buy from B&O as I don't feel their products are up to my standards or taste in terms of performance!
I still maintain 4k is utterly pointless outside the confines of high end pc gaming. Maybe useful on a Mac Pro when editing photoshop files , god knows ? Then again how many pc cards support 4k at high refresh rates ??
Or massive and I mean MASSIVE screens. Certainly a lot bigger than55 inches.
I don't know about the UK, but with SKY in Italy (same boxes AFAIK) you can choose to output 720p or 1080i.
Do you get poor results in both cases?
Marcello: I don't know about the UK, but with SKY in Italy (same boxes AFAIK) you can choose to output 720p or 1080i. Do you get poor results in both cases?
Yes it's the same in both cases. It's not limited to SKY. I have the same issues from any source I use, Sky, Bluray, Apple TV. It is an issue with the TV and how it is handling motion. Moxxey is probably correct in saying that it is a processing issue. I hope that is the case as it probably can be fixed with a software update.
Regarding Flappo's constant berating of 4K - The 4K feature is hopefully going to come in handy for the future but right now, for the price we've paid for the Avant we should expect it to at least produce 1080p as good as anything else out there. Certainly not worse! And right now my seven year old Panasonic produces better motion. This thread isn't about the feasibility of 4K but rather the Avants current performance with 1080.
What about 1080p? Does SKY not support that? In the US it's been a long time since the highest resolution on cable or satellite was 1080i. Things went to 1080p a number of years ago.
Obviously operating at the native resolution of the panel is best, as it requires no upconversion. When I bought my first flat panel (which I still have, a Panasonic plasma) 720p was only just out. I picked an ED panel, 480p, for two reasons. One, in side by side comparison with the more expensive Panasonic 720p sets, the 480p EDTV had much better contrast, black level, and shadow detail. And since DVD was my primary source for movies, DVD being 480p it required no conversion to match the display resolution. And the picture was incredible, and still looks wonderful, only falling down when compared with my big VT series Panasonic.
480p from DVDs upconverted by my Oppo to 1080p looks quite good, but not as good as BluRay 1080p. Cable varies depending on the source material, some is obviously 1080p, some obviously upconverted, but even 1080p cable due to compression does not look as good as BluRay.
4k requires some serious upconversion processing it would seem, with all the attendant issues that can create.
When I compared the 480p to the 720p sets on DVD, I noticed that even with the sharpness dialed down, the 480p set, if you sat far enough away to not see the pixels (i.e. normal viewing distance) the 480p set looked like it had higher resolution, was sharper without the ringing that dialing up sharpness can produce. Maybe that was due to the upconversion, maybe to something else. In photography there is a thing called accutance. It is basically a subjective perception of sharpness and detail. Films that are "inferior" to others in terms of resolution, lines per mm or such, often look sharper and clearer than extremely fine grained film. The eye tends to perceive the grain, at a distance, as increased edge sharpness. Perhaps we have similar situations in video, it would seem to follow. (Yes, you see again my interest in human perceptual issues, audio and video!)
Jeff: What about 1080p? Does SKY not support that? In the US it's been a long time since the highest resolution on cable or satellite was 1080i. Things went to 1080p a number of years ago.
US channels (cable and terrestrial) broadcast in 1080i (they use a digital standard called ATSC instead of DVB) at 30 Hz (60 fields). The transport stream is usually MPEG-2, while in Europe we tend to broadcast in H.264.
1080p is used by satellite providers but only for on-demand content, not real-time broadcast.
In my tests at a dealer, the upscaling of Blu-ray content (1080p/24 played from my Mac) was impressive. High-quality 720p was below par. Noticeable banding on many parts of the screen... quite disappointing and one of the reasons for postponing my purchase.
a good article here regarding marketing oversell on refresh rate - all is not what it seems when you look at those numbers.
http://www.rtings.com/info/what-is-the-refresh-rate
Jeff: Marcello: I don't know about the UK, but with SKY in Italy (same boxes AFAIK) you can choose to output 720p or 1080i. Do you get poor results in both cases? What about 1080p? Does SKY not support that? In the US it's been a long time since the highest resolution on cable or satellite was 1080i. Things went to 1080p a number of years ago. Obviously operating at the native resolution of the panel is best, as it requires no upconversion. When I bought my first flat panel (which I still have, a Panasonic plasma) 720p was only just out. I picked an ED panel, 480p, for two reasons. One, in side by side comparison with the more expensive Panasonic 720p sets, the 480p EDTV had much better contrast, black level, and shadow detail. And since DVD was my primary source for movies, DVD being 480p it required no conversion to match the display resolution. And the picture was incredible, and still looks wonderful, only falling down when compared with my big VT series Panasonic. 480p from DVDs upconverted by my Oppo to 1080p looks quite good, but not as good as BluRay 1080p. Cable varies depending on the source material, some is obviously 1080p, some obviously upconverted, but even 1080p cable due to compression does not look as good as BluRay. 4k requires some serious upconversion processing it would seem, with all the attendant issues that can create. When I compared the 480p to the 720p sets on DVD, I noticed that even with the sharpness dialed down, the 480p set, if you sat far enough away to not see the pixels (i.e. normal viewing distance) the 480p set looked like it had higher resolution, was sharper without the ringing that dialing up sharpness can produce. Maybe that was due to the upconversion, maybe to something else. In photography there is a thing called accutance. It is basically a subjective perception of sharpness and detail. Films that are "inferior" to others in terms of resolution, lines per mm or such, often look sharper and clearer than extremely fine grained film. The eye tends to perceive the grain, at a distance, as increased edge sharpness. Perhaps we have similar situations in video, it would seem to follow. (Yes, you see again my interest in human perceptual issues, audio and video!)
The max setting currently on Sky is 1080i. But the motion problems that the Avant currently has is with all resolutions, 480p, 720p, 1080i and 1080p. And I have found the problems persist across all my devices.
Leaving aside Flappo's issue of whether there is 4K content available to watch and the fact that, for a 55" screen, you need to sit closer than ~7ft to see the added details afforded by the extra pixels - the fact that there are four times as many pixels as a 1080 screen means quite a step up in processing power to work out what all of the pixels are going to display when upscaling. Maybe B&O are just trying too hard with the upscaling algorithms given that most people will be sitting far enough away that they couldn't distinguish the picture from a 1080 version anyway. The simplest algorithm could actually give the best overall results if they are struggling to implement anything more complex in real time!
Ban boring signatures!
Paul W: Thanks for the info Moxxey. I'm simply using freedom of speech and telling the truth when it comes to my observation of competitors refresh rates. LG is 200, Sony is 600 and Panasonic 2000! Samsung is 600 upwards that's all. Surely all of you complaining continuously about your products that are always not performing as they should is way more damaging to B&O. And yet you guys are stupid or so material obsessed to keep on buying the brand! I enjoy reading the forum from time to time and try and point out why something may not be performing. But I don't buy from B&O as I don't feel their products are up to my standards or taste in terms of performance!
thanks for the feedback. Understand you are the ultimate authority. Freedom of speech.
The return of Mr Paul W,
Spend your time on the apple or bose forum,I am sure you can point out suggestions for improving their performance.
At least you would be speaking from a users perspective and experience,as you only rate B&o on your experience of owning a century and a bv 6-22 years ago!Hardly an up to date comparison.Have you ever used any of the products you compare?
Spec sheets mean nothing,eyes and ears are the best judge,also manufacturers manipulate them.
Look at a midi hifi from argos,1000 watts rms,it must be better than a lower powered system.I don't think so.
Yes have tried both settings
Yes same for me same on my TVIX media player 1080p.
Just watching SKY now and really disappointed. All settings are off.
Solidsnake: Also it's not just Sky HD. It is an issue with the TV. I have the same motion problems watching Sky HD, Apple TV and Bluray from PS4 & PS3.
Yesterday we watched the Freeview HD World Cup scenes on the dealer's Avant and saw the same behaviour - it appeared randomly in scenes and would last a second. Typically when panning across crowd scenes. I also saw it in an advert where there was a large twirling globe logo.
BeoNut since '75
If cable is sending a max 1080i signal to the box, the box must be converting it as my monitor and receiver show that they are receiving a 1080p signal. Interesting, I've found reference to cable like Charter being 1080i but the newest I've found is over 2-3 years old.
Wow , what a brilliant tv.
No 4k to watch and 1080p hd doesn't work either.
Why on earth anyone would buy this over the bv11 is beyond me
Jeff: If cable is sending a max 1080i signal to the box, the box must be converting it as my monitor and receiver show that they are receiving a 1080p signal. Interesting, I've found reference to cable like Charter being 1080i but the newest I've found is over 2-3 years old.
It is possible that your box gets 1080i signal and deinterlaces it to 1080p before sending to the TV. But I'm just assuming, I have never dealt with TV in the USA.
In any case, with today's deinterlacing techniques, you should not see any noticeable differences between 1080i and 1080p.
Look I had the demo as well and support those comments.
Motion problems were an issue as was the edge lighting in the panel. Which did not allow a sharp picture on the sides.
Should those issues be solved and video distribution then it becomes a purchase proposition. Otherwise sadly not.
Don't get me started on the matrix system either. Build the damn thing into the Avant and other TV's and link TV's via LAN cables with signalling (imagine wireless). Bit like a 2 way HD Masterlink thru the house.
Sorry, beoaus.
BeoGreg: What we need here is a video expert "à la Mr Geoff Martin" explaining the choices of B & O.
What we need here is a video expert "à la Mr Geoff Martin" explaining the choices of B & O.
I have been asking for that before - we need a 'Techical Picture Guide'.
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV