ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
I don't think you need a brain surgeon to tell you that 1080 into 4k doesn't work without some kind of visual compromise.
Flappo: I don't think you need a brain surgeon to tell you that 1080 into 4k doesn't work without some kind of visual compromise.
You just replace each pixel with a group of four identical pixels - done. Completely transparent. Of course, in practice upscalers will do better than that.
--mika
If that's the case why so many issues with 4k ?
Its a resolution too far. Completely OTT.
Even apples mac book pro retinas don't go that far , nobody in the real world does.
Paul W: 100Hz for the Avant is the lowest spec 4K on the market. Everyone is doing 600, 1000 with Panasonic doing 2000Hz. Was offering 100Hz is HUGE cost saving for B&O whilst allowing them to make a huge profit? The minute I checked the specs, it just didn't sound right to me!
100Hz for the Avant is the lowest spec 4K on the market. Everyone is doing 600, 1000 with Panasonic doing 2000Hz. Was offering 100Hz is HUGE cost saving for B&O whilst allowing them to make a huge profit? The minute I checked the specs, it just didn't sound right to me!
It is often just marketing talk. My old led had 800 hz (which was just marketing bullshit). The Panasonic for example has a scanning backlight that flashes quickly to make it look like it updates quicker than the panel actually does. So the panel is not 2000 hz, the leds are. And a dimmed led is always flashing by the way.
Beolab 50, Beolab 8000 x 2, Beolab 4000 x 2, BeoSound Core, BeoSound 9000, BeoSound Century, BeoLit 15, BeoPlay A1, BeoPlay P2, BeoPlay H9 3rd Gen, BeoPlay H6, EarSet 3i, BeoVision Eclipse Gen 2 55", BeoPlay V1-40, BeoCom 6000 and so much else :)
If it's any consolation, I just saw the Samsung S9 (4K 84-inch, CHF 40K) and I was not impressed with upscaling at all (I have the feeling that the panel is the same on the upcoming B&O). Signal is coming from digital cable.
Even watching from a distance does not hide artifacts (especially the logo watermark).
This the kind of problems all TV sets have been suffering from whenever a new technology was introduced. The only difference is that now B&O jumps on the bandwagon earlier than before, exposing themselves to the kind of critique we are discussing.. I would imagine that they pondered extensively the issue..
Flappo: If that's the case why so many issues with 4k ? Its a resolution too far. Completely OTT. Even apples mac book pro retinas don't go that far , nobody in the real world does.
I already told you that MacBook Pro retina has a way higher pixel density than a 4K 55" screen. So yes, a lot of things do have higher resolution. iPhone, iPads etc even higher. Don't be so annoyed by the screen resolution. It has many advantages. One is the possibility to actually have a computer connected to the TV and use it properly in a retina mode! The problems with the halo effects etc is not about the panel but software. The software is even running in full hd today so it is not a 4k issue. It might be more obvious since it shows the faults that is not otherwise that easy to spot.If you have good speakers - then MP3 sound bad because you can hear the loss of detail. It is the same with a good screen.
Michael: If you have good speakers - then MP3 sound bad because you can hear the loss of detail. It is the same with a good screen.
If you have good speakers - then MP3 sound bad because you can hear the loss of detail. It is the same with a good screen.
I don't think that analogy applies exactly. It's more like if you had a CD player that played standard Redbook 44.1/16 and sounded great, then you put your CD in a player that upconverted it to 96/24, and it sounded odd with all sorts of artifacts. Would you accept the 2nd player as your prime source of music? With these 4k TVs and their upconversion algorithms, that's more what you have, you can't go back to the old resolution. And it's a lot easier to live with two CD players, one for standard, one for a HD CD, than it is to live with two large televisions.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Interesting reading about 4K and picture quality...
4K vs. 1080p from a distance of 9 feet, a public "blind" survey: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-1080p-201311153442.htm
The results: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-resolution-201312153517.htm
I agree with the results: a proper 4K video looks better from the rather usual 9-feet viewing distance even on a small(ish) 55" TV.
HDTVtest also has quite recent in-depth reviews of Sony's and Samsung's latest UHD offerings (I would expect Avant to be on par with both):
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/kd55x9005b-201405123771.htm
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/ue55hu8200-201406123803.htm
Universal points that I took from these tests:
High-quality 1080p content can look better on a 4K display than on a Full HD display. This depends of course on how good the picture processing and panel are.
However, compressed broadcast video (720p, 1080i/p) can have more pronounced compression artifacts on a 4K display than on a Full HD display, due to the higher pixel count (sharper display) and because the artifacts themselves are upscaled & enhanced. It can be reasoned that this can result in artifacts in the compression artifacts!
This goes to say that 4K is a very "unforgiving" display.
There were similar "poor picture quality" comments about the BV11 on this forum when the TV was launched. BV11 with "only" a FHD resolution was considered unforgiving with a SD / poor HD signal, which could look horrible.
Whereas a FHD display such as BV11 brings out and magnifies the errors & low quality of SD, it makes sense that a UHD display such as Avant brings out errors & quality issues even from HD signals – especially compressed HD signals (and basically all broadcast HD content is compressed). So anything unwanted you see on HD broadcasts often originates from the source and is not a fault of the TV, but it can be pronounced by a 4K panel.
In the reviews there were mentions of the occasional motion quirks, so they are not unique to Avant. Processing power / good software is essential in getting a good picture out of 4K displays. There are a lot of pixels to drive.
In my opinion, the picture quality of BV11 has improved with software updates over the past year and a half. The picture processing software on Avant will surely improve with updates as well, which is good news for people who are not satisfied with Avant's performance out of the box.
I highly recommend eliminating excess picture processing by turning down Sharpness, Noise reduction and Contrast enhancement on the Avant, and most importantly switching Judder cancel off. These "picture enhancements" often produce a picture that is over-processed, which results in a detoriated (as opposed to enhanced) picture.
EDIT: If you have a normal Blu-ray player (that is to say not for example OPPO's top-of-the-line models) or you are using a set-top-box for TV broadcasts, it's often best to have all picture enhancement settings disabled in the player or set-top-box. Otherwise you are watching a picture that has been enhanced first by the player / set-top-box and then again by the Beovision, which very likely results in "enhancements of enhancements" and equals a picture that is anything but natural. Feeding unprocessed picture is usually the best option, so only the Beovision will do the necessary processing. For example a raw, pass-through 1080p video from my Sony blu-ray player looks best on BV 11. If I select any picture mode from the player's setup that adds processing to the picture on the player, it looks worse – not better – on the BV.
It would be great to have a review of HDTVtest caliber and scrutiny about the Avant: its panel & processing power, so hopefully B&O sends out test units to various professional testers.
And finally, the ever-important conclusion on new tech on TVs: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/tv-buyer-201406233824.htm
KMA
B&O product history since 1991: Ridiculously long to list in a signature.
While I applaud Richer Sounds intentions, I'm afraid there were far too many variables to attribute the better picture to pixel count. I don't doubt it was universally selected as better, just that the pixel density was the overwhelming contributory factor.
Ban boring signatures!
KMA: This goes to say that 4K is a very "unforgiving" display.
I think this is the key item from your excellent post.
And the fact that the major providers of digital content (Apple and Netflix for example) compress heavily the video because of bandwidth reasons means that we are going to have to wait for a while to fully appreciate 4K. Just to give you an idea, The Dark Knight Rises blu-ray has a video bitrate of ~28 Mbps. The average 1080p iTunes video file is ~4 Mbps.
KMA... An excellent post. Just like to say thank you for this. From what I have seen from my Avant so far collaborates all what you say. Compressed HD not good. Non Compressed Excellent. Not sure the Avant is the right product for me right now. Really appreciate your post. Many Thanks
KMA: High-quality 1080p content can look better on a 4K display than on a Full HD display. This depends of course on how good the picture processing and panel are. However, compressed broadcast video (720p, 1080i/p) can have more pronounced compression artifacts on a 4K display than on a Full HD display, due to the higher pixel count (sharper display) and because the artifacts themselves are upscaled & enhanced. It can be reasoned that this can result in artifacts in the compression artifacts!
I've just read both reviews and these are not conclusions I would have drawn! I couldn't find where they said that 1080p content looked better on a 4K display, although I did read a section on the Sony TV that said "leave the 4K setting on even for 1080p content" but that was because, if it was turned off the TV couldn't properly show 1080 burst patterns, not that it displayed them better than a 1080 panel.
Puncher: While I applaud Richer Sounds intentions, I'm afraid there were far too many variables to attribute the better picture to pixel count. I don't doubt it was universally selected as better, just that the pixel density was the overwhelming contributory factor.
I agree...it's very, very difficult to setup a test when there are as many variables as there are here. It's like testing 44.1 vs. 96 khz using two different players and two different but very similar speakers.
I believe in the test they got the results they got, but I think it's impossible to be absolutely sure of the reasons. Controlled perceptual testing is hard, if it's not perfect it will lead you down all sorts of rabbit holes. Even minor differences in contrast and gray scale linearity can shift perceptions of which is better far more than pixel count.
When there's as much 4k source material as laserdisc ( remember those ? ) I'll be interested ( which was uber niche at best ) But I still had a few players etc
At the moment it's approaching ELCASET levels of acceptance lol
SA-CD , DVD -A ? ring any bells ???
Puncher:I've just read both reviews and these are not conclusions I would have drawn! I couldn't find where they said that 1080p content looked better on a 4K display, although I did read a section on the Sony TV that said "leave the 4K setting on even for 1080p content" but that was because, if it was turned off the TV couldn't properly show 1080 burst patterns, not that it displayed them better than a 1080 panel. Ban boring signatures!
KMA: Puncher: I've just read both reviews and these are not conclusions I would have drawn! I couldn't find where they said that 1080p content looked better on a 4K display, although I did read a section on the Sony TV that said "leave the 4K setting on even for 1080p content" but that was because, if it was turned off the TV couldn't properly show 1080 burst patterns, not that it displayed them better than a 1080 panel. Ban boring signatures! The blu-ray conclusion was pretty clear on this, IMO: "We spun a few Blu-ray discs, and the phenomenal images put out by the Bravia X9005B so wowed us that it got us asking “what devilry is this?”. The fantastic contrast between inky blacks and bright whites – even when they co-existed on the same scene – simply belied the measured ANSI black level of 0.056 cd/m2. Was it Sony’s new X-tended Dynamic Range technology which operated at a more microscopic level beyond what even our reference-grade instruments could measure? Was it the way LCDs can deliver linear light output that’s unhindered by ABL (Automatic Brightness Limiter) unlike plasma and OLED TVs? We honestly don’t know. All we know is the Sony X9-B produced a truly fabulous, high-contrast image that appealed greatly to our videophilic eyes." I'd attribute the "devilry" to 4K and excellent processing of blu-ray. But I might have read too much into this, although the 4K model was deemed "reference level" of all the LCD TV tests they have performed.
Puncher: I've just read both reviews and these are not conclusions I would have drawn! I couldn't find where they said that 1080p content looked better on a 4K display, although I did read a section on the Sony TV that said "leave the 4K setting on even for 1080p content" but that was because, if it was turned off the TV couldn't properly show 1080 burst patterns, not that it displayed them better than a 1080 panel. Ban boring signatures!
OK - you're free to interpret the passage as you see fit, my interpretation is that they were wowed by the image but couldn't say specifically what made it so good, although they did call out contrast, extended dynamic range and linear light output as being possibilities. The extra pixels weren't singled out as a potential reason and so I would conclude that it was not an overwhelming contributor to the wow factor they experienced.
Puncher:The extra pixels weren't singled out as a potential reason and so I would conclude that it was not an overwhelming contributor to the wow factor they experienced.
jbrown77:KMA... An excellent post. Just like to say thank you for this. From what I have seen from my Avant so far collaborates all what you say. Compressed HD not good. Non Compressed Excellent. Not sure the Avant is the right product for me right now. Really appreciate your post. Many Thanks
KMA: And perhaps you should give the Avant a little more time? B&O have just released the first software update for Avant (as mentioned in the other thread, with a comment that upscaled picture seems to have become better), so chances are the picture will continue improving with further updates.
And perhaps you should give the Avant a little more time? B&O have just released the first software update for Avant (as mentioned in the other thread, with a comment that upscaled picture seems to have become better), so chances are the picture will continue improving with further updates.
When my Avant is installed Wednesday, as a long-standing BV11-46 user and BV10 owner, I'll be in a good place to comment on the differences and, believe me, I won't hold back. If it isn't as good, or has motion issues, I'll tell you.
As I've said many times before, when B&O moved to the BV7-40 MK3, with the first 1080P panel, SD upscaling was worse than the picture on the (720) MK2. Lots of complaints. I expect the same with the Avant. Regular HD TV won't be as good as the BV11-55, but upscaled Blu-ray (native 1080P) will be superb.
What I do intend do though, is to upscale via the Oppo player, which has two input HDMI sources, for upscaling to 4K in the player, rather than the Avant.
can't wait for your 'review'
Moxxey... already looking forward to your valued opinion. Please don't hold back.. I get the impression you won't anyway.
I am seriously considering sending the Avant back and change to a BV11-46. But for me it's a compromise. I've never liked the BV11 (personal opinion, honestly not meant to offend) because I like the illusion of space underneath the BV7 and now Avant. I don't like the thought of compromise for something like this, not to mention the cost. I don;t think i'd be happy. Saying that the most important thing on a TV is picture quality for the source you watch. 95% of viewing in our household is SKYHD so when that is really poor on the Avant I really don't think I have an option.
Thanks KMA, agree it may be worth more time. B&O dealers been to see it today and agree picture is not good especially from SKYHD source. SO am seriously considering return. I installed the new SW yesterday but didm;t make a difference, but that was expected as the new SW were to fix some minor issues non picture related.
I just do not know what to do now. My BV7 is gone and I'm not a big fan of the BV11 so either reluctantly suck it and see or compromise on BV11.. Neither ideal.
Anyway I'll wait to see what the dealer feedback is and B&O feedback. As of today I'm told B&O have no other reported SKYHD related issues
Moxxey, with the OPPP player I could only see 1 hdmi inout and 2 outputs..maybe I'm looking at a different model. How would this work with SKY HD. I have SKYHD on HDMI2 and PUC connected. If I placed OPPO in the loop to do the upscaling how would work from a connection point of view?
jbrown77: Thanks KMA, agree it may be worth more time. B&O dealers been to see it today and agree picture is not good especially from SKYHD source. SO am seriously considering return. I installed the new SW yesterday but didm;t make a difference, but that was expected as the new SW were to fix some minor issues non picture related. I just do not know what to do now. My BV7 is gone and I'm not a big fan of the BV11 so either reluctantly suck it and see or compromise on BV11.. Neither ideal. Anyway I'll wait to see what the dealer feedback is and B&O feedback. As of today I'm told B&O have no other reported SKYHD related issues
Hi jbrown77 I've been complaining to B&O about the picture since I got my Avant. Motion makes me feel sick, judder and weird fuzziness. The new update does nothing to fix this. BUT I have stumbled upon a fix!
I already had the judder reduction and adaptation off. I also have the sharpness, dynamic contrast turned down. But I have been using the MOVIE picture mode. But today I started using the MONITOR picture mode. And as the onscreen description says, it delivers just the raw picture with no processing whatsoever with a nice 6500k colour temp. And so far today I haven't seen the motion problems that wee there on the other settings. I couldn't believe it! Try it and see.
I even just tried Star Trek (2009) Bluray and all the weird motion artefacts are not there any more.
moxxey:What I do intend do though, is to upscale via the Oppo player, which has two input HDMI sources, for upscaling to 4K in the player, rather than the Avant.
jbrown77:Anyway I'll wait to see what the dealer feedback is and B&O feedback. As of today I'm told B&O have no other reported SKYHD related issues
KMA: jbrown77: Anyway I'll wait to see what the dealer feedback is and B&O feedback. As of today I'm told B&O have no other reported SKYHD related issues Just a thought: could it be that your specific Avant unit has a fault with the video engine? Maybe you could test another unit. Also, have you had the chance to try out another Sky HD box? Is it a possibility that it has had picture quality issues all along, but they've only now become more visible / pronounced, given Avant's 4K screen? This could especially be the case if you moved up from a 40" BV7 to a 55" Avant. It's harder to spot PQ issues on a smaller screen from the same viewing distance (smaller screens are more "forgiving" in this respect).
jbrown77: Anyway I'll wait to see what the dealer feedback is and B&O feedback. As of today I'm told B&O have no other reported SKYHD related issues
Just a thought: could it be that your specific Avant unit has a fault with the video engine? Maybe you could test another unit.
Also, have you had the chance to try out another Sky HD box? Is it a possibility that it has had picture quality issues all along, but they've only now become more visible / pronounced, given Avant's 4K screen? This could especially be the case if you moved up from a 40" BV7 to a 55" Avant. It's harder to spot PQ issues on a smaller screen from the same viewing distance (smaller screens are more "forgiving" in this respect).
The Avants issues with motion and judder is present on all sources. It is not limited to Sky hd. My Avant is showing these problems across sky hd, Apple TV, playstation 4 Bluray and playstation 3 bluray. I have tried every conceivable setting on the Avant and the main culprit seems to be the picture modes (along with judder reduction and room adaptation). Whatever processing that the Avant is employing with its ADAPTIVE and MOVIE modes is not working right. Using MONITOR picture mode seems to give the best result by using no processing whatsoever.
KMA:I would do this, too. OPPO 103D has a superior upscaler that probably beats the onboard upscaling of any TV.
Do you absolutely know this to be true? I've never read as many leaps of faith in a single thread!
Puncher:Do you absolutely know this to be true? I've never read as many leaps of faith in a single thread!
moxxey:When my Avant is installed Wednesday, as a long-standing BV11-46 user and BV10 owner, I'll be in a good place to comment on the differences and, believe me, I won't hold back. If it isn't as good, or has motion issues, I'll tell you.As I've said many times before, when B&O moved to the BV7-40 MK3, with the first 1080P panel, SD upscaling was worse than the picture on the (720) MK2. Lots of complaints. I expect the same with the Avant. Regular HD TV won't be as good as the BV11-55, but upscaled Blu-ray (native 1080P) will be superb.What I do intend do though, is to upscale via the Oppo player, which has two input HDMI sources, for upscaling to 4K in the player, rather than the Avant.
ahha.. found the second HDMI input it's on the front.. only looked at the rear picture before
Thanks Solidsnake. I will go and try monitor and the other settings you mention. Will report back with my view. Fingers crossed for an improvement
Thanks KMA.. Well the dealer says it's not faulty TV, although haven't tried another. They came and viewed it yesterday. I tried my HD box on another 4K screen and seemed ok although not a great test only a few minutes so hard to say. I have an old skyHD box that I will try.. Good Point
tired older SKYHD box and no change. Still fuzzy, blurry and panning issues
jbrown77: Moxxey... already looking forward to your valued opinion. Please don't hold back.. I get the impression you won't anyway.
I will be holding back as my dealer called me at lunch and told me Avant production is on hold AGAIN and my Avant has been pushed back another 10 days. The re-arranged install for this Wednesday is cancelled for a second time.
So, I told him to tell B&O to take a running jump. I'm not prepared to have two install dates cancelled, be messed around and, on top of this, be a beta-tester for the new TV, which is the impression I receive from this thread. I spent a year 'beta-testing' the BV7-40 MK3 when it had all sorts of software issues with a Sky box. Sounds like the Avant has software-related upscaling issues.
I'll be heading to my dealer in person on Saturday to talk through the options. I might ask him to hold the cash I gave him for the 'upgrade' and put this towards a BV11-55 if and when B&O reduce the price from the current £9K RRP.
I think this will be the best solution for you. How about some of the 12-65's coming onto the market? Would suit your new speakers very well!
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
Chris Townsend: I think this will be the best solution for you. How about some of the 12-65's coming onto the market? Would suit your new speakers very well!
True. The only concern I had with the 12-65 was sport. I found the 7-55 to be far superior for rendering panning across grass, so tennis and football looked better on the LCD panel. The plasma tended to smooth the grass and blur quick movement. My dealer had a 7-55 and 12-65 side-by-side, so was easy to compare the two TVs.
I'm sticking with the 11-46 short term and will speak with my dealer on Saturday. He also says the lead time on the Avant is now September (it's only June!) due to the two production suspensions.
Sounds like the tv is a total disaster.
Bno really need to get their act together.
Sorry to hear about all the issues people are having, it must be very frustrating. I am not sure what I would do if I had purchased. Very difficult decision.
B&O products are V1-32, BS2, H95, E8 and an Essence remote.11-46 now replaced with Sony A90J 65”, Sony HT-A9, Sony UBP-X800M2 and Sony SRS-NS7.