ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
I'm currently driving my Beolab 8000 mk2 from a Crystal Acoustics BluDAC. (source MacBook Pro Retina / Spotify) This works well enough, but I am curious as to whether how it might stack up against the PlayMaker. Despite searching the internet, I can find no reviews of the PlayMaker that throw any (credible) light on the DAC specifications and / or how it actually sounds when compared to other wireless DACs out there.
Does anyone here have experience of the PlayMaker, particular as compared with other wireless DAC solutions?
BeoLab 8000 Mk2, CrystalAccoustic BluDAC, Mac Book Pro Retina
I think for some they will not hear a difference between the DACs but there are other bullet points to consider
- Playmaker supports Powerlink, that means the Beolab speakers will switch on automatically which may not be interesting for the ones with line in mode, but for others and in combination with a subwoofer it can be important
- Playmaker provides a Line In, so you could use it i.e. to hook up a digital player like the Olive One
- Playmaker runs only on 2.4Ghz Wifi with is old and slow and obsolete. Thats a restriction that Apple Airplay puts out. I ended up connecting it via cable and am waiting for a new router that can support 5 and 2.4 at the same time so that teh playmaker can be on its own network
- Playmaker will react to Beo 4 commands, thats important to control volume
I think "sound" is fairly subjective and for many just a 2nd consideration. I have a dirt cheap DAC that I "hate" not just over sound, but also over the loud crackling noice when it starts up
jk1002: I think for some they will not hear a difference between the DACs but there are other bullet points to consider <snip> I think "sound" is fairly subjective and for many just a 2nd consideration. I have a dirt cheap DAC that I "hate" not just over sound, but also over the loud crackling noice when it starts up
<snip>
Thanks jk1002. The Playmaker features are documented, that part is reasonably easy, It's the "sound" is fairly subjective part that I want to get to the bottom of. How does the Playmaker sound when compared to other (wireless) DACs?
Michael Ellis: Does anyone here have experience of the PlayMaker, particular as compared with other wireless DAC solutions?
I'm well impressed with my PM. Having used an Airport Express for years (which was incredibly reliable), I was hesitant to move to a PM after reading lots of complaints about it disconnecting whilst playing audio from your computer.
The audio quality is far superior to the Airport Express. A big improvement. I'd also say the same audio from a CD, played via the BeoCenter 2, sounds much better streamed via the PlayMaker, which says a lot about this device.
Sadly I can't compare it to other wireless DAC solutions other than the AE, but I'd doubt there are more superior products on the market, from my limited experience.
It does disconnect occasionally, but if you give it a static fixed IP, this helps hugely.
I haven't compared my PM to anything other than an Airport, and Moxxey is right, it is far superior to the Airports internal DAC. The only other DAC I've compared it to was a Little Dot DAC I used to use via USB from the PC to the Beosound, directly wired. The DAC is interesting, it supports coax, optical, and USB input, and has RCA and XLR balanced outs. I've noticed no difference in sound between it and the PM. The PM sounds just great in my setup, streaming from iTunes or from Spotify.
Since I solved my wireless streaming problem I've had no dropouts either. In my case there was an application on my PC that monitored the wireless router that would stomp all over other traffic when it decided it was time to poll the router and refresh status. Since it didn't do anything I can't do by connecting directly to the router using the web browser, I had no real use for it and deleted it off my PC. Flawless streaming since then.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
I love my Playmaker - best thing I have bought in years!
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
@Jeff, thanks
Well since you notice little difference between the Playmaker and the Little DOT (a dedicated DAC of around £200) and you do notice a big improvement over the Airport Express it certainly seems it might be worth investigating.
-- ME
I haven't taken an Airport Express apart, but there are multiple reasons it probably has reduced sound quality, even if the DAC is fine, the analog stages are obviously seriously compromised by the size and layout of the device. That may make as much or more difference than the DAC.
Back years ago I did some fairly rigorous controlled listening tests for outboard DACs and internal DACs in CD players. I found that audible differences were usually so slight as to be illusory, in that when you just single blinded the choices it became almost impossible to consistently tell them apart. And it was impossible to tell once you equalized levels and double blinded the test. I didn't test all DACs obviously, but did a fairly representative set of affordable DACs. There was one model, an affordable outboard DAC that was uniformly rated by audio pubs as being superior to most inboard DACs. I found that the samples I had of this DAC were all running a couple of tenths of a dB hotter than the pretty standard internal DACs. Since the ear detects small loudness shifts as everything and anything other than simple volume differences, it wasn't surprising that it sounded different. I suspect that this was done deliberately so that people would notice a difference. And I really don't blame the manufacturer for doing this, it was a fairly smallish startup, and the name of the game is business, and making clients happy.
Regardless of if the PM sounds better than what you're using now, there are other usability advantages, Aux input, etc. that would make it worth it in my view.
BTW, I've enjoyed following your saga with your system...you have an interesting approach and I can relate to wanting to simplify things.
Jeff, Thanks for your reply. It's great and I relate to and agree whole heartedly with the running a couple of tenths of a dB hotter being enough to persuade a listener that the difference s/he is hearing is a subjective improvement. But God are things confusing now - you'd think the world going digital would make it all cut a dried! Not so, I think purchasing audio equipment now (for those that want quality before convenience) is now harder than it has ever been. There are so many links in the digital chain (bit rates, sampling frequency, compression algs., transport protocols and bandwidth) and that’s even before we get into the DAC and post DAC side of the equation that it's a nightmare. So the answer, well just listen to it of course. BUT here's the rub, in a world where the independent audio reseller has gone to the wall in the face of consumers buying at cheapest price on line, you can no longer do that. Tottenham Court Road (London UK) was my childhood wonderland where I could audition anything and everything, hardly worth going there now. Even the B&O Centre I recently visited wasn’t really setup to make the most of the equipment there. They demo’d a pair of 18’s to me running Spotify through the Avent TV, and frankly the sound was not that great. In fact (highly subjectively), tweaking some equalisation (just a little) made by 8000’s back home sound just as good or perhaps even better. Everything today seems to being being sold on style rather than content. When my son an I auditioned a range of iPhone docks for his Christmas present, the sound from ALL of them (inc. Bose, Cambridge Audio, B&W etc) fell a long way short of the HiFi systems I was listing to back in the 70’s But no one seems to care. It’s pretty ain’t it!
I couldn't be happier with the PM, i think it sounds superior to the Airport Express, but that's the only two wireless solutions I have tried.
My PM is connected wirelessly via my router which is in another room, i have only ever had i think one drop out and that's because the phone that I was streaming from became out of range when it went into my pants carrying it around.
I have 2 BL3's connected to the PM which switch on and off.
I now run a dedicated iPad on its own dock as my music centre - all my music is on the iPad in lieu of a BeoSound 5.
I purchased a PM for my old man and he has a CD player as line in, plugged in to BL4000s - and he previously had a marvellous Onkyo system from the 80s which has now been relegated to his man cave (garage) he loves the sound through the PM.
@Michael - In my experience a lot of the alleged differences between different digital products and different bit rates, HD audio, etc. are all pretty illusory and don't survive controlled testing. So all the hand wringing about whether Redbook standard CD is bad and HDAudio tracks are good or compressed files are bad strikes me as kind of obsessing over things that don't really matter. I've done a few tests where I made a disc with a music file in CD format, then followed by it in CD format that was converted to an AAC lossy file, then back to CD and then randomly repeating either one or the other, and I've yet to find anyone who could reliably tell the difference at anything but really low bit rate AAC encoding, way lower than what the iTunes store offers. So I don't spend much time obsessing over it.
I also find most DACs beyond the very cheap bottom end and compromised implementation things like the Airport to be identical. I used to believe differently in my youth, but getting exposed to controlled testing by some audio engineering friends definitely changed my mind about a lot of this. There is a place where price/design matters, but that occurs lower than you'd think.
But there are also bad MP3 encoders, and very low bit rates, and as for iPod docks, I agree. But then, they all are small and bear the limitations that always will put on an audio system, though some sound better than others. And none of them sound as good as a "real" stereo as you noted. I used to work selling audio gear back in the 70's while in college, some high end stuff, and some normal stuff. I loved audio back then, every company had their own look and all seemed to be proud to put out big, impressive pieces, not the commodity items you see today. Row after row of identical black boxes.
One of the reasons I prize B&O, no one else seems to be so design focused.
@Jeff, largely agree about alleged differences between different digital products, but nevertheless, I think that there can be marked differences in the final audio quality (which will be dependent on a multitude of factors other that than the just the digital specs.) Infact the digital specs. can be somewhat misleading like high mega pixel count cameras being better than those with with a lower pixel count and then putting cheap lenses in front! Did you see my post here: The Jolly FatMan at Christmas? I compared the FatMan Mi against a simpler valued Marantz streaming audio player (with many more features) Soundwise, seriously no contest. So as you said, there’s a lot more to this that the raw DAC specs.
moxxey: The audio quality is far superior to the Airport Express. A big improvement. I'd also say the same audio from a CD, played via the BeoCenter 2, sounds much better streamed via the PlayMaker, which says a lot about this device. It does disconnect occasionally, but if you give it a static fixed IP, this helps hugely.
The PM is indeed one of the best solutions to stream audio on today's market. The AE supports lossless CD quality playback, but not high resolution audio.
Each component has a DAC built in. The DAC inside the AE is not top notch, which means that when you're using regular analog line out from the AE you're getting a reduction in signal resolution, and lots of jitter. I would recommend finding an older wireless G (A1084) model with it's lower jitter.
I'm not in the possession of a PM so I cannot comment on the quality of DAC they use, there is little or no information about its specially tuned DAC and it's ability to stream 24 bit or HiRes files. But my ears don't lie, its sounding a lot better then AE.
As the AE the PM uses AirPlay what is not my thing because it's an Apple standard it's closed-off and proprietary. Why not looking for a hard-wired set-up to avoid the PM or AE, an use only the iPad for control with Apple's own remote app.
Edit: Hereby a pic of my music-dedicated mac mini, using a iPad or iTouch around the house with the Apple remote.
"Believe nothing you read and only half of what you see, let your ears tell you the truth."
This is something that got me really confused and unhappy with my setup, I had an AE and it was convenient and good, then I tried an outboard DAC with it and the sound was excellent, then I bought an Apple T V and connected that to the DAC, but at the same time changed by old Avant for BV8, stlll connected to Pentas (which have been refoamed) - sound went from great to ok but lost loads of oomph (for want of a better word), so I bought a BM6500 and connected the output from the DAC to that - distortion and too much bass - back to the BV8 but then tried it just connected via HDMI and all three speakers on - finally it sounds good again.
I now long for the days when everything was simple - my other system a BM5500 with S75's actually sounds better but it's in a different house with different furnishings lower ceiling and floor boards compared to the flat which has high ceilings and carpets. So I guess that has something to do with it - and then thanks to someone on this site I found out that moving the speakers helped dramatically! If I had the energy and a vehicle big enough I would try swapping them over.
It would be interesting though if someone organised a get together to try out the different DACs and solutions? Any interest? I'm in London and Frinton (essex) if there are any other Beoworlders out there interested in trying out different configurations and speakers etc
ajames: This is something that got me really confused and unhappy with my setup, I had an AE and it was convenient and good, then I tried an outboard DAC with it and the sound was excellent, then I bought an Apple T V and connected that to the DAC, but at the same time changed by old Avant for BV8, stlll connected to Pentas (which have been refoamed) - sound went from great to ok but lost loads of oomph (for want of a better word), so I bought a BM6500 and connected the output from the DAC to that - distortion and too much bass - back to the BV8 but then tried it just connected via HDMI and all three speakers on - finally it sounds good again. I now long for the days when everything was simple - my other system a BM5500 with S75's actually sounds better but it's in a different house with different furnishings lower ceiling and floor boards compared to the flat which has high ceilings and carpets. So I guess that has something to do with it - and then thanks to someone on this site I found out that moving the speakers helped dramatically! If I had the energy and a vehicle big enough I would try swapping them over. It would be interesting though if someone organised a get together to try out the different DACs and solutions? Any interest? I'm in London and Frinton (essex) if there are any other Beoworlders out there interested in trying out different configurations and speakers etc
I share your frustration! Organising a meeting time & location convenient for several peeps and getting an assortment of DACs is possibly a tall order though.
I'm going to have put some thought into drawing up a list of exactly what are my requirements!
>>Organising a meeting time & location convenient for several peeps and getting an assortment of DACs is possibly a tall order though.<<
The interesting thing is, just like it was stated earlier, there are really many maybe too many variables for this to make sense. I found for example, that when I connected my BL3/BL2 combo directly to my BV8 32 the sound quality would take a noticeable hit. That could be a version glitch in the software or something else. My dirt cheap DAC doesnt produce a signal loud enough for my BS9000, plus the buzz noise when powering it up.
I would almost always recommend sticking to B&O and not introduce any third party equipment, but then play around within that framework to see what sounds best to your ears, for you music taste and lastly for your music source.
BeoBoy68:Why buying an old and ugly Playmaker which is finally discontinued ? Let's buy the new elegant BeoSound Essence !
BeoNut since '75
@elephant - are you sure this can't be redefined in the setup via the BeoMusic app?
If they would only tell us a bit of how this - with the ir eye - is going to work!
Untill then I will continue to recommend the Playmaker.
Jeff:I found that the samples I had of this DAC were all running a couple of tenths of a dB hotter than the pretty standard internal DACs. Since the ear detects small loudness shifts as everything and anything other than simple volume differences, it wasn't surprising that it sounded different.
@JEFF, YES, I have often thought a useful option on digital graphical equalisers would be a "normalise" check box that would automatically normalise the individual band attenuations so the over SPL gain was kept to 0. i.e. if you raise one band all the others would marginally decrease.
This would have two benefits:
Ought to be a fairly simple thing to code and *I think* (with good user interface) provide a more intuitively understandable tool.
Millemissen: @elephant - are you sure this can't be redefined in the setup via the BeoMusic app? If they would only tell us a bit of how this - with the ir eye - is going to work! Untill then I will continue to recommend the Playmaker. MM
It's new news !
So let us all dig away at our various dealers and I am sure we will eventually get to the truth !
eg is it an "eye" like the old Active & BeoPort eyes ?
Will it look like an Essence dial ?
Will it just be like a PUC that you can dangle where ever you wish ?
elephant:It's new news ! eg is it an "eye" like the old Active & BeoPort eyes ?
I guess it's the same one as used for the NL/ML Converter.
Millemissen:I guess it's the same one as used for the NL/ML Converter. MM There is a tv - and there is a BV.