ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
I know the mmc1 was the top cartridge for B&O but did it sound any different than a mmc2? The specs make the mmc2 and mmc1 to be the same. What is the difference?
Let's see what others have to say. I doubt that there is much audible difference between MMC 1 - MMC 4.
Cheers,
Kai
As far as I understand, they are exactly the same, but MMC1's have been selected out after test measurements for having better something. I doubt anybody can hear much of a difference.
--mika
I have several samples of both. None of mine are brand new though so it is really difficult to compare since any perceived differences could be due to age and use of the cartridges. In my own listening tests, I could never distinguish a difference between the two types in my collection. But that just means my ears can't hear a difference.
Exactly - if you have 'Golden Ears', and the rest of the system is of equally high caliber, you might hear a difference. Ask Geoff Martin.
sonavor: I have several samples of both.
I have several samples of both.
If I hadn't been a victim of burglary, I would make a joke about stealing from your collection.
Rich: sonavor: I have several samples of both. If I hadn't been a victim of burglary, I would make a joke about stealing from your collection.
Oh no. Is the burglary something that has recently happened?
sonavor: Oh no. Is the burglary something that has recently happened?
They didn't get anything this time.
But I've been hit two other times in the past. Probably the same guy all three times.
I have a few mmc2s and mmc3s and they seem pretty close, the mmc2 maybe a tad better on high end or letter S sounds. But mine are old too. I'm sending a mmc4 and mmc2 out for retips. From what I have read I can make a mmc4 the same as a mmc1/2 just by getting the ruby cantelever. I'll test the retips vs the old ones and see if I have been missing much in terms of performance.
I think I'm going to give Benny a try since he is in the USA. Although I hear this german fellow is really good at it. Anyone here try Bennys retip service?
RAJOD: Anyone here try Bennys retip service?
Anyone here try Bennys retip service?
Sort of. When my daughters were about 2 and 3, they ended up grinding away the stylus of my only MMC4. I sent it to Benny, but it was beyond repair (according to him). He did, however, offer to sell a retip he had in stock. I bought it, and 4+ years later, it's still playing well on an RX2.
I have only ever heard MMC4's from the MMCx line so I cannot compare it to any of those. It is certainly more harsh than the Soundsmith retip of an MMC3000 I have, but that's the mellowest cartridge I've ever heard.
Also, I have only ever used an RX2 with my MMC4's, so don't have an opinion on the cartridge/turntable system aspect.
I have used Benny (one MMC2 cartridge), Axel (two MMC2 cartridges) and Soundsmith (one MMC1 cartridge). The repairs have all been for suspension repairs on cartridges that still had good styli and cantilevers. Benny and Axel both did nice jobs. I haven't received my first repair from Soundsmith back yet. I tried them for the first time a couple of months back. They have a 12 week backlog so it takes a while.
One thing to note, the repair will require the cartridge to be cut open. Axel makes a slit cut towards the front, Benny cuts out the underneath section, then reseals it with some metal tape. I am anxious to see how Soundsmith does it. I am happy with my cartridges I have got back from Benny and Axel. If you are in the USA or Canada, Benny might be faster as the shipping is closer. The cartridges I sent to Axel took a while to get to him using first class US airmail. However, it was faster than the 12 week turn around time Soundsmith currently has. When I finally get back the cartridge from Soundsmith I will post some pictures of all three repair shop results.
Okay, finally, after fifteen and a half weeks, I received my suspension repaired MMC1 from SoundSmith. I now have suspension repaired cartridges from Axel, Benny and SoundSmith. Here are pictures of my examples from all three places. Cosmetically, it appears that SoundSmith does the nicest job. I can't see anywhere the cartridge case was opened up. Benny and Axel cut the case open. I have actually had two repairs done by Axel and they both have the surgery scar as shown in the picture. Benny covers the opening with a metallic tape. Expense-wise, Benny was the least expensive for me. Soundsmith is the most expensive. Axel is in between but probably closer to SoundSmith in cost. Regarding repair time: I'm sure this varies. For my cartridge repairs, Benny was the fastest, then Axel, then SoundSmith. I don't know if that is typical or not. I have to cut Axel some slack because he is the farthest distance from me and I have had ridiculous problems with the postal service in delivery times from the USA to Germany. The shipping times from Axel back to me seem to be much quicker.
The cartridges I have had suspension repair done all sound great to me now. I haven't had the need to have any re-tip or cantilever replacement done so I can't speak for the work of the three repair shops in that area. Here are a some closer pictures of each cartridge I had worked on. The first one is the cartridge Benny Amina worked on back in May of this year. The cantilever is nice and straight. He said the stylus and cantilever still have a lot of miles left on them so it was well worth having this MMC2 repaired.
This was my first suspension repair by Axel. One channel was out on this cartridge. It was repaired in September a year ago.
This is the MMC1 from SoundSmith that I received back today. The cantilever doesn't appear perfectly straight but neither does the one from Axel. I don't know what that means or if it matters. Both Axel and SoundSmith signed off on their results as the cartridge suspensions being repaired and performing as designed. In my listening tests (usually Fritz Riener and the Chicago Symphony performing Rimsky-Korsakoff Scheherazade), the cartridges sound perfect. I really can't compare the cartridges head-to-head as they are all three used cartridges from different owners and I have no idea of their history. The repair shops confirmed the cantilever and stylus are good on each one so my job is just to enjoy using them in my Beograms.
Interesting comparison, many thanks. How do Soundsmith open the cartridge then? The surgery scars are evident in the other two and my previous understanding from other posts was that this cutting was the only way to access the cartridges.
Having said that, the Soundsmith cantilever is so far off true, I'm amazed it's OK. If I worked on that, I could not in all honesty return it to the owner looking like that. The cantilever should be in-line and not look like that. The diamond will be all over the place in the grooves of the vinyl and surely has the potential to damage the record over time as it will be biased to one side of the groove. On another post regarding re-tips, one was returned to Axel as it was not in-line (not to that degree either) and he replaced it.
Enjoy your vinyl.
Dave.
Thanks for the photos!
Looks like Benny is the ticket then. Less money, faster and they all sound similar right?
Thanks for posting all the great photographs.
Yes I have to agree with Dave, for what they charge that crooked mmc1 looks a bit shoddy.
I would have send them both back immediately. My god, that's what they call quality? Especially the one from Germany.
Brengen & Ophalen
In evaluating my small sampling of results I don't think I can declare one repair shop a winner over the other. For one thing, none of my repairs involved re-tipping which is a major repair. So in the context of just cartridge repair issues, all three repair shops produced good results.
With regard to cantilever leaning, I talked to the SoundSmith owner, Peter Ledermann via a phone call about the results of my cartridge repair. I also sent him the same picture I posted here. Peter described that he adjusts the cantilever/stylus mechanism so that it is perfectly balanced on the cartridge and that a little leaning of the cartridge is a typical occurrence. It would be a concern if it was way off but just a few degrees is not a problem. When the stylus sets down on a record, the cantilever straightens out. Repair work on phono cartridges is beyond my capabilities and he has 40 years of experience with cartridge building/repair so I am inclined to believe what he says. One of my cartridges from Axel also has some lean to it.
My reason for sharing the results of my MMC repairs is just to report that I have had success with each of the well known cartridge repair shops and what the results can look like. The repair of a phono cartridge is obviously very delicate work and I am glad these repair shops exist. I would like to see some details of other kinds of B&O cartridge repairs people have had done. For example, in repairing an MMC6000 cartridge stylus, is the only option to replace it with a contact line or Shibata tip? No one reproduces the original Pramanik tip, right?
-sonavor
What were the symptoms of the carts before you sent them in?
I have a mmc2 that the suspension is floppy, it plays but the needle is pushed up where the gaurd is almost scraping on the record. Have a mmc4 like that too.
I think I'll try Benny as he has the best price and is the fastest. I'll report back here with results.
Does the new MMC1 now sound better than the others? I was wondering how much a new suspension adds to the sound if anything. I would say my mmc3 has a little more mid range pop than the mmc2. But the mmc2 is a little smoother on highs, like a little better on the letter S sounds.
RAJOD: What were the symptoms of the carts before you sent them in? I have a mmc2 that the suspension is floppy, it plays but the needle is pushed up where the gaurd is almost scraping on the record. Have a mmc4 like that too. I think I'll try Benny as he has the best price and is the fastest. I'll report back here with results. Does the new MMC1 now sound better than the others? I was wondering how much a new suspension adds to the sound if anything. I would say my mmc3 has a little more mid range pop than the mmc2. But the mmc2 is a little smoother on highs, like a little better on the letter S sounds.
On the MMC2 that I sent Benny, it had a weak channel. On the MMC2 that I sent Axel, it had a channel that was completely out. I have a second cartridge from Axel where the base had come off. On the MMC1 that I sent to SoundSmith, I never tried that cartridge at because I received in a state where the cantilever was way off to the side. It might have broken if I tried to use it.
Today I switched back and forth between the MMC2 from Axel and the MMC1 from SoundSmith in my Beogram 8002. I haven't been able to tell a difference. That is the same results I have had before in testing between my other MMC2 cartridges and my other MMC1 cartridges.
I also have an MMC2 cartridge that has the weak suspension like yours...where the plastic guard comes in close contact with the vinyl. I have taken that cartridge out of service and will send it off for repair (eventually). I wouldn't have any problem sending it to Benny. If I send any more cartridges to Axel I think I might try to save up and send two or more. If I had three or four to send it would be worth the cost to send them via registered mail (with insurance). One problem I have had with first class airmail and USPS is I can't get insurance without using registered mail (which is much higher). Sending these cartridges without insurance always puts a scare into me. I would consider sending another repair to SoundSmith but I would have to weigh the amount of time it takes (about 3 months) and the cost versus the complexity of the job. I have no doubt they must do a good job with their re-tipping service. When I sent my cartridge to Benny I was able to communicate by phone and email with him about the repair. I liked that. Axel also communicates well through email although he takes a little longer to reply as he is quite busy. SoundSmith is really busy and the most difficult to get through to by email or phone. However, I was able to get through to Peter on the phone today so it is possible.
Well I can see a winner.
Cost - 1. Benny, 2. Axel 3. SS
Speed 1. Benny, 2. Axel, 3. SS
Quality - Tie so far.
So far it looks like Benny is ahead in the race.
sonavor: If I had three or four to send it would be worth the cost to send them via registered mail (with insurance).
If I had three or four to send it would be worth the cost to send them via registered mail (with insurance).
Clearly you have too many cartridges and must sell me one, preferably an MMC2.
sonavor: When I sent my cartridge to Benny I was able to communicate by phone and email with him about the repair. I liked that. Axel also communicates well through email although he takes a little longer to reply as he is quite busy. SoundSmith is really busy and the most difficult to get through to by email or phone. However, I was able to get through to Peter on the phone today so it is possible.
When I sent my cartridge to Benny I was able to communicate by phone and email with him about the repair. I liked that. Axel also communicates well through email although he takes a little longer to reply as he is quite busy. SoundSmith is really busy and the most difficult to get through to by email or phone. However, I was able to get through to Peter on the phone today so it is possible.
For what it's worth, I wanted to share my experiences in the spirit of "full disclosure."
My experience with Soundsmith is twofold. I purchased a new SMMC20EN for my BG4002 (purchased from Jeff ["Burantek"]) from Soundsmith. It didn't actually fit the 4002. I had to keep it "unplugged" about 1 mm for it to work. I emailed the Soundsmith general info address and within 24 hours Peter himself had called me and we were talking about the issue. I sent the cartridge back and he modified it for no charge and returned it within about a week. I have been enjoying it ever since (about 3 years now).
Jeff had given me an MMC3000 with the BG4002. While there was nothing wrong with it per se, I sent it to Soundsmith for a retip, almost as an experiment. I used there cheapest retip option (I couldn't even tell you what it was to be honest). Within a month I had the 3000 back and I absolutely love this cartridge. I often describe it as "mellow." It's just so neutral as to never draw any attention to itself. It's my favorite cartridge, although perversely it is mounted in my least used system.
My experience with Benny Amina is limited with retips. I believe I have already noted it in the thread already, but let me recap. My kids when they were younger destroyed my only (at the time) MMC4 cartridge and I was starting to collect vinyl again. I heard about Benny from Jeff and sent him the damaged MMC4. Within a few days Benny called and said he couldn't fix the one I'd sent in, but he had a rebuilt MMC4 in stock that he could sell me. I took him up on his offer and I've been enjoying that cartridge for going on 4 years now.
My experience with Benny with other repairs is less limited. He's fixed/rebuilt for me: BG4002, BC2400, BC4500, BC8004, BM1900, BM4000, CD X, and Nakamichi BX125. His prices are fair and his turn times are less than a month. Usually it goes something like this. I email Benny the issue, e.g., "May I send you my CD X? One channel's output is much less than the other." He responds within 24 hours by email to go ahead and send the unit in. I send him a bench fee check for $50 along with the unit. He'll call about a week later and give me an estimate. At that point we make a go, no-go decision on whether I want to bother with the repair. (Sometimes I just say don't bother, go ahead and keep the unit for parts.) Two weeks later or so I have the repaired unit back. He applies the check to the cost of repair and charges my credit card the balance.
I have no experience with Axel. Some day.
Thanks for the additional information Rich. I think it helps confirm that we have some good options to keep our Beograms supplied with the necessary cartridges for our vinyl addiction. All three repair shops we have been discussing have good track records and I hope they remain in business for a long time.
About my number of cartridges, I am paranoid and of the belief that I can't have enough cartridges. However, I will let you know if I decide to sell any.
Thanks Sonvar for a very detailed post!!!!
After doing heaps of research, a few weeks ago I ended up buying a new SMMC3 from Soundsmith. I received it at my front door in under 2 weeks from placing the order and I live overseas!!!!
The SMMC3 represents excellent value for money as its the top of the range cartridge in the MMC range that retains the aluminium suspension and very low 1.2g tracking force. Also majority of thrift shop 2nd hand vinyl will sound better on an SMMC3 as it won't pick up as many imperfections/pops like an MMC2 or MMC1 will.
For an immaculate record recording, pressed on new virgin vinyl or a well cared for 2nd hand top sonic recording/pressing record, combined with an awesome amp and speakers, yes definatly go the MMC2 or the Sound Smiths The Voice cartridge if you have the cash. This is when you will notice the difference over an >MMC3. For normal everyday listening on a variety of quality and pressings of vinyl, the SMMC3 is alot better then most people give it credit for and is the best allrounder I think.
In my opinion, if your serious about vinyl, have 2 cartridges at least. An SMMC3 for everyday and an SMMC2/The Voice for those special records and to blow visitors/freinds minds on how good a decent pressing/recording sounds through decent speakers and amp.
That's my 2 cents.
sonavor: About my number of cartridges, I am paranoid and of the belief that I can't have enough cartridges. However, I will let you know if I decide to sell any.
I was mostly kidding.
I'm more paranoid about the diminishing availability of Type II blank cassettes.
What about mmc cartridges with a worn out needle or broken tip?
Those would need a new cantilever. From what I saw on Bennys site is no matter if it was a mmc1, 2 or 3 they will be turned into a MMC4 in performance.
What if you want you broken mmc1/mmc2 to remain as mmc1/mmc2?
Benny - no cant do it
Axel - I don't see a ruby cantilever listed on his site. He has carbon which I have no idea if as good as the ruby.
SS - Dunno
A few months ago someone said a mmc4 can be turned into a mmc1 in performance as all the internal coils of mmc1-4 are the same. Not sure this is true but maybe.
I'm not sure how much sonic difference there is from a mmc 1 to 5. I own mmc2-4 and there does not seem to be a huge difference in sound. I mean certainly not a 500.00 difference. But none of mine are new and none have be repaired yet. From what you described (Sonavor) there either work or they don't.
I did not get that you had a WOW impression on the repaired ones. I've not read anywhere that they got a new suspension and it was OMG so much better than old one. I'm wondering if they degrade slowly or maybe they work near 100 percent then the suspension fails and then they are done.
On one of my mmc2s the suspension is so floppy I don't use it anymore as the protector will drag on the record. But up until that happened it sounded just like my other MMC2.
I plan to have them all. MMC 1 - 5 and maybe a new SS smmc2 or smmc3 and compare them all.
For how long B&Os have been around this topic seems to be an enigma, I don't see many reviews on them in terms of comparing one to another. For the cost difference there needs to be one.
My KEFs are still in the shop, have a guy fixing them that builds speakers ($5,000+) and he suggested he replace all the cross overs with new. Its been 2 months. He says they going to sound better than new. We will see, they have enough detail for me to hopfully be able to discern any audible difference between the mmc carts. I'll also use my 17 yo sons golden ears.
RAJOD: I did not get that you had a WOW impression on the repaired ones. I've not read anywhere that they got a new suspension and it was OMG so much better than old one.
I did not get that you had a WOW impression on the repaired ones. I've not read anywhere that they got a new suspension and it was OMG so much better than old one.
Well, this may be "apples to oranges" as we say here in the States, but I did have an OMG reaction when I got my retipped MMC3000 back from Soundsmith.
I have never seen let alone heard an MMCL20, or an MMC6000, or an MMC1/2/3, but my retipped MMC3000 from Soundsmith is a better cartridge than my new Soundsmith SMMCEN20, my used B&O MMCEN20, my used MMC4's, and my Benny retipped MMC4.
MMC2 and MMC4 both retipped and repaired from Axel, the difference from 4 to 2 is not "big" or wow, but the 2 is much more detailed and clearer sounding, I use it only for new or very good records.
All my MMCs I got repaired by Axel had broken, missing needles or bad suspension, I still have one 4 original, no difference between the org. and the Axel. I have a MMC4 from Soundsmith, that one sounds brighter, more CD like than the Axel ones.
Where I said WOW, was a bad sounding SP14, repaired from Axel it really made the difference, I later found 2 more SP14s originals and they are sounding just as good as the one from Axel.
So conclusion, I will never buy a used MMC without getting it repaired, but SPs seams to have a better (longer lasting) suspension.
Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.
RAJOD: On one of my mmc2s the suspension is so floppy I don't use it anymore as the protector will drag on the record. But up until that happened it sounded just like my other MMC2.
You said it there - that is a case where you need to get the suspension repaired. Another case can be when one channel is weaker than the other or out altogether. In those cases, if the cantilever is still good and the stylus is still good, any of the three repair places I mentioned can fix the problem. If you get a used MMC cartridge where the stylus and/or cantilever are damaged or worn beyond repair, then you need to have them rebuilt.
As far as what level to go (MMC 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5), that comes down to your own hearing and preference. It is the same as to how much a person is willing to spend on any audio gear for a (likely) small incremental increase in sound quality. All of the good audio companies had various price levels for their equipment offerings. Everyone desires the top of the line models but that doesn't mean the lower priced models were junk. If the MMC4 was junk, Bang & Olufsen would not have made it and sold it. So if you are well satisfied with the results the MMC4 produces, then there is nothing wrong going that route. I enjoy restoring these great systems but I try not to lose focus on the actual enjoyment of the music they reproduce.
sonavor: I enjoy restoring these great systems but I try not to lose focus on the actual enjoyment of the music they reproduce.
I enjoy restoring these great systems but I try not to lose focus on the actual enjoyment of the music they reproduce.
Well said.
My personal approach has always been to try to devote resources (and usually that means money) 50/50 to the software and hardware, i.e., spend half my cash on the equipment, and half my cash on the records.
I knew a guy in college (summer, 1987), who had 200 CDs and played them through a $175 CD player connected to a $200 boombox. 200 CDs in 1987 in Ann Arbor, Michigan would have cost at least $2600. That's just stupid in my opinion. 10 to 1 ratio in resource expenditures whether software:hardware or vice versa is wrong in both cases.
Conversely, about the same time another friend from college bought a new Nakamichi BX300 cassette deck (one of which I currently own) for the full retail price (about $600 if I recall correctly) and didn't own a single cassette. I mean, WTF?
About 2 years ago I owned zero cassettes. I did in the past (I used to record my LPs to cassette, store the LPs, and just play the recorded cassette), but those tapes were lost to divorces and moves and just the passing of time. But when I started buying decks to "complete the set" as Eugene used to say, I needed some software. Now I'm back to over a hundred cassettes, with 5 working B&O decks plus a few other gems.
Yes, I get caught up in the collecting aspect of the virus, but in the end, it does come back to the music. Find a good balance between spending your money on the software as well as the hardware.
Oh I do both, listen and enjoy but also trying to get educated on some of the nuances of the equipment. Intel when then came out with the I7920 they also had a slightly faster ones. One was 300.00 the other was over 1,000. Turns out they were all the same chip and all could be run at around the same top speeds. So people bought I7920s and ran them at the same stock speed as the $1,000+ chip. They were basically the same chip with different labels.
Not saying the cartridges are that close but I really don't know yet. Maybe could save some other people money that don't know enough. I read about a guy that bought a SMMC1 and he had like a 100.00 total system cost stereo. I'm pretty sure that guy could have saved some money and had the same sonic experience. He just did not know enough.