ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
The clouding issues with the beovision 10/40-46 are they (2012) solved?
No clouding on my 5 month old BV10-46.
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
And the 40 inch version?
BeoGreg:To know if there's clouding, you need a totally dark room at night and in the service menu of the tv in monitor you choose "patterns" : black.
Or I could spend the time doing something a lot more useful :)
BeoGreg: ...Of course good eyes is also a must
...Of course good eyes is also a must
Good lord.
moxxey: BeoGreg: ...Of course good eyes is also a must Good lord.
True.
But I wish the Good Lord had given me with eyes that could see this issue
and had left me with ears that could hear the differences in lossless records
my sons are complaining about a frame rate issue in the new BV8
apparently they can see a frame rate slow down during playbacks
I can not even see what they are talking about
so we have some quite frustrating conversations
no, let me rephrase
very frustrating
BeoNut since '75
Oh my gosh, it's all too much now ;)
Through the years,are there different versions of the BV10-40
If you can't see it in normal viewing then ignorance is bliss - it would be madness to go looking for it on purpose. Once you know it to be there you will convince yourself you can see it under normal conditions and your satisfaction with your TV will be ruined forever.
I've seen too many people changing things because they've read about it in magazines/forums etc. and have then convinced themselves they can see/hear it themselves!
Watch the programmes on your TV, not the TV itself!
Ban boring signatures!
Chris Townsend:Puncher is right on this. Don't go looking for problems that might well be there. When your watching all but the darkest films you would never know anyway. I can't tell you how impressed I am by the quality of the picture on the 10-46 compared to the 7-40 mk3. Very sharp and great blacks. And add in the complimentary Beolab 11, I have a neat minimal beautiful looking and sounding TV. Just what a B&O should be.
I can't tell you how impressed I am by the quality of the picture on the 10-46 compared to the 7-40 mk3. Very sharp and great blacks. And add in the complimentary Beolab 11, I have a neat minimal beautiful looking and sounding TV. Just what a B&O should be.
The BV10 is a beautiful TV - enjoy it.
I do wonder if B&O were expecting a run on BL11's that never came though, by the number they're giving away free!
Definitely the MOST BEAUTIFUL ELEGANT TV ever!!! I really can't imagine anyone ever wanting to get rid of one of these.
I saw the BV12 the other day and yeah, it's just a TV whereas this BV10 is elegance, it's art and it's timeless!!! Plus it has character!
Paul W: I saw the BV12 the other day and yeah, it's just a TV whereas this BV10 is elegance, it's art and it's timeless!!! Plus it has character!
The BV12 has a much much better picture. I own a new-ish BV10-46 and the BV12 blows it out of the water. Colours are deeper, richer and, as it's plasma, less sharp.
BV10-46 has a top-notch image, but it's trumped by the BV7-55 MKII and, again, by the BV12.
But the design is fantastic. I have the orange fret on my BV10 right now and that gets a lot of people talking (in a positive way).
Puncher: I do wonder if B&O were expecting a run on BL11's that never came though, by the number they're giving away free!
My dealer can't shift his ex-demo BL11s. They've been available since the start of the year. I bought one last month, but there are another two available. Tempted to pick up one for my BV10-46. We'll see.
Problem I have is wooden flooring and the BL2 had to be disconnected from my old BV7 as it rattled the floor. If you turned a movie down, you couldn't hear the quiet parts. Turn it up and unexpected explosions rocked the room!
moxxey: Puncher: I do wonder if B&O were expecting a run on BL11's that never came though, by the number they're giving away free! My dealer can't shift his ex-demo BL11s. They've been available since the start of the year. I bought one last month, but there are another two available. Tempted to pick up one for my BV10-46. We'll see. Problem I have is wooden flooring and the BL2 had to be disconnected from my old BV7 as it rattled the floor. If you turned a movie down, you couldn't hear the quiet parts. Turn it up and unexpected explosions rocked the room!
A movie as an "occasion" with popcorn etc. is great - however I find general TV viewing with surround sound and especially a subwoofer to be a bind - you're either continually riding the volume control in real time or you turn off the subwoofer or you turn on a compressed or "nighttime" mode which reduces the volume dynamics anyway. I do feel there's a lot to be said for "just" a TV rather than a full blown "media centre", with cinema acoustics, for general day to day viewing!
Puncher: I do feel there's a lot to be said for "just" a TV rather than a full blown "media centre", with cinema acoustics, for general day to day viewing!
I do feel there's a lot to be said for "just" a TV rather than a full blown "media centre", with cinema acoustics, for general day to day viewing!
I do agree. I've gone from BV7+BL3s+BL2 to BV7+BL9s+7.4 to just a BV7+7.2. Out of those three options, it might surprise you to hear that I prefer the BV7+7.2 option for overall day-to-day TV. You knew where you stood. As you rightly say, you don't need to play with the volume control. You get great sound, without worrying too much about explosions (and, let's be honest, buying a sub for that kind of thing is a bit wasteful).
But, having said that, the BV10 audio isn't quite good enough. Having owned that BV7+7.2 combo for a couple of years, the BV10 audio is just to basic, too flat, too central. It's lacking clarity. Maybe the BL11 would help (it's improved the clarity/roundedness of the BL3s since adding a BL11), but as you say, I fear the explosion scenario again :) 7.2 was just a lot better - and away from the floor - for handling TV audio.
Moxxey the orange fret looks amazing!!!! Got to say, it looks incredible with the BS8 as well!
I've noticed Audi are offering the new out A3 with orange contrasting to the black leather interior and it's very tempting when they launch the saloon version in 2013 with the B&O sound system!!!
Dear Peter and Svend fans,
Sorry, but the initial question was about the clouding issue of BV10 being solved or not.
I say I don't think so because after two BV10 and a new screen on the second one (and various sofware updates), the issue is still here.
And yes, it is an issue.
I'm a lawyer with three kids so when I sit to relax and watch Tv, it as been dark outside for a longtime. I personnaly watch Tv during daytime maybe ten times a year.
Unfortunately for me, you can see this issue only when the room is dark.
Should I watch Tv at midnight with full light on in the house ?
When I speak of good eyes, I think of my father or my wife that are not disturb by the "clouds".
But I am and I payed 7.000 € + for the Tv (and two STb Bracket, and RE-BL...).
Again my wife was right, I should have kept the Avant.
Incredible picture in any conditions, incredible sound.
That's what B & O says now about BV10, it's absolutly wrong.
Don't be shy guys just do the test in a dark room, it takes far less time then changing the fret without making finger prints on the screen.
Gregory
BeoGreg: Don't be shy guys just do the test in a dark room, it takes far less time then changing the fret without making finger prints on the screen.
I think Puncher's reply summed up how I and Chris Townsend feel about this (non)-issue. Why go looking for something that is plainly difficult to find in normal day-to-day viewing. I often watch football in a non-lit room on an evening as the clarity is improved, but have never seen any clouding or any issues whatsoever.
BeoGreg: I think of my father or my wife that are not disturb by the "clouds".
I think of my father or my wife that are not disturb by the "clouds".
Sorry, but maybe that says more about yourself than you realise? :)
moxxey: I often watch football in a non-lit room on an evening as the clarity is improved, but have never seen any clouding or any issues whatsoever.
I often watch football in a non-lit room on an evening as the clarity is improved, but have never seen any clouding or any issues whatsoever.
The problem appears on dark pictures not a bright football match.
moxxey: Sorry, but maybe that says more about yourself than you realise? :)
Sure, but my wife would have never bought B & O products or Italian supercars or haute horlogerie watches...
Am I to blame because I whant perfection ?
And I'm going too far here, because a black picture on a 2012 Tv isn't perfection, it should come as standard especially on a B & O Tv, a company that stated " a perfect picture".
Good for those who don't see clouding on there BV10, but anyone should be aware that it can happen and can disturb some customers.
I've made a lot of requests to B & O Denmark from my dealer or alone and nobody denies that the issue exists.
Appart from two or three persons on Beoworld then.
Ashame I can't discuss that in my native language, I could use the right words to explain how clouding annoys me.
Once again the question is : do BV10 still have clouding issue ? not : can you live with it ?
BeoGreg: The problem appears on dark pictures not a bright football match.
I can assure you, and I speak for others, we don't just watch football matches.
Of course you're going to see some backlighting on your LCD - I saw this on my BV7. Patches of lighted areas. If you choose to watch your TV in a dark room, the backlighting has to work harder and you see bleeding if you look very carefully.
BeoGreg: Once again the question is : do BV10 still have clouding issue ? not : can you live with it ?
Again, I think these "clouding issues" are more to do with the type of the user who demands "perfection" (that doesn't exist). You get backlighting issues across thin LCDs due to the nature of the technology.
I collect rare watches as do others. Some users can't understand why their £10K mechanical watch runs a few seconds late every month. They simply can't get their head around it. They fail to understand that, ironically, quartz watches are actually more reliable. That's the nature of the beast. Perfection doesn't exist and if you go looking for issues, you'll find them.
My advice to you moxxey regarding the sub is to get a granite chopping board too even and stack them on top of each other this helps to reduce the vibrations, i use one myself with a subwoofer and it reduces vibrations really well and bass feels tighter too.
Beoplay A2
A picture is sometimes better than a thousand words...
This is the best black screen I could get from B & O.
Do you see the "Mickey Mouse ears" in the middle on top of the screen ?
The end to clouding is nigh...
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fc368dc4-9a7f-11e1-83bf-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1uTr3778m
If we go by Moxxeys 3 year trade in rule, and taking for granted that these should be well up to speed by then, i guess the 10-55 OLED will be next on my list.
Are there no modifications for this clouding issue?
Mk I or MkII does it make any difference.
BeoGreg: Do you see the "Mickey Mouse ears" in the middle on top of the screen ?
It looks like a solid black image to me :) Or as good as.
On a serious note - that's just backlight bleed. It happens. You have a thin "designer" LCD screen. It's very difficult to completely eliminate bleed. In the same way some Cinema Display users receive dead pixels and Apple won't replace until you have more than four of them - and they are a lot more annoying than a small amount of bleed in an all-black picture.
I think people have to understand, that these clouding issues will never go away on a LCD screen, because of the way there backlight works.
As moxxey points out, this just relates to the backlight technology used with an LCD panel.Every LCD screen you find will have this issue (more or less), but you can't say "this is a very expensive TV, so this shouldn't be happening", because no matter how good you make it, it will still be there. Even the 7-55 with direct backlight have this problem (though not visible with a black test screen, but can be seen as backlight bleed if you have bright objects on a black background).
If you can't live with it, go get a plasma or forget about it and just enjoy your wonderful BeoVision 10
I too haven’t noticed the clouding and not going to look for it, but just enjoy my BV10
At the beginning of the flast screens (and LCDs in particular), B&O sold beautiful designer TVs with awful picture quality.
Then the picture quality improved a lot very quickly, the best panels were CCFL backlit LCD screens, there were some very good panels at this time. Clouding was almost non-existent but backlight non-uniformity existed.
Then, going faster than customers demand, manufacturers replaced the good CCFLs with LEDs, but LED are expensive, so they decided to put the LED on the edges of the panel (generally 2, 4 is rare, almost non-exitent nowadays) with light guides to distribute the backlight around the panel. The picture quality was then worse than CCFL-backlit panels. But customers were happy to buy that cr*p, just because their screen was thinner than their neighbor's screen... We've come to the point that any corean/japanese LCD screen is now thinner than the thinnest picture frame people have in their house. (It's interesting to see that, no? People want thick frames for a sheet of paper, and thin frame for a lot of technology...). But clouding is part of this technology and there isn't any edge-LED screen without clouding.
The solution exist, without going OLED or crystalLED, it's just the Full-LED panels, with around 1000 LEDs behind the LCD screen. Clouding is non-existent on those screens (dynamic backlighting can make things worse, but at least, this can be de-activated!). In 2011, LG made what I think was the best full-LED LCD panel I've ever seen in a TV. It was the LEX8 (2160LEDs, 8,8mm thin, 5000€).
Now you think that the future developments of LCD can bring us better screens? You're wrong : the 2012-version of the LG LEX8 has less LEDs, and can't compete with it's predecessor. And it's the same for every brands. If you're in search of perfection, you can only be frustrated nowadays, because the whole market is going the other way (there are only 3 companies in the world that produce TV-sized LCD panels, so no one can change that).Why? Because 100% of R&D on LCD panels is now aimed at cost reduction, not picture quality. Manufacturers want to generate profit, which they haven't done for years.
So if you want a cloud-free LCD, you have to choose a full-LED panel, but there are not a lot of products on the market (no product in the Samsung range, a few in Philips', LG's and Sony's ranges), at B&O the only one is the BV7-55, otherwise you have to go the plasma way.
PS : Greg, I can explain that to you in your native language
diisign.com
Im a little confused because, whilst the screens are small in comparison, Apple with its Retina display is amazing, just check out the new iPad and I believe, this months new MacBook Pro will be featuring it too so I guess not all LCD LED screens are just built to a price.
Saying that also, I bought a BV6 22" in 2005 and whilst it wasnt HD, its picture quality was certainly not awful (I used Sky Digital and my DVD1 at the time). If fact, it was a very elegant little thing that looked very cute in my apartment. From what I remember, it's picture rom a distance was pretty decent!!!
I know that we can argue about this forever, but I really do not miss those buzzing bulky CRT's one single bit! I do miss my little BV6 though - she was sweet!
Perhaps there is no way of getting rid of the clouding in the 10-40/46 as described.
However B&O do exchange panels on warrany if there is clouding. So I take that as B&O has the idea that there shall not be clouding. I got my BV 10-46 a few months ago and I have had problems with: Sound, it comes and goes. Clouding - there is a new panel that looks different from the "old one" And my tv is only a few months old! I also have had problems with the built in DVB box. I got several software updates, new sound module and two new panels since the new panel got all black the day after being chaged.. The new panels look different from the once being mounted in the factory, B&O have made the same changes in the 46 panels as they did on the 40 panels - wich had problems with clouding.
I think that the BV 10 is a piece of art, it looks stunning, but as far as a TV I dont have faith in it any more.. I have been promised a new tv from the warranty. But seriously I dont think I want to have a new BV10 since we have had so much problems with our. I think it is 4 weeks without a tv, and problems with picture and sound for 4-6 weeks before that..
Maybe we have had bad luck with our tv, but for that cind of money I expect more..
Does anyone know how the BV 7-40 is compared to the BV10? Picturewise and qualitywise? (I hope it is ok If I borrow your thread!) :) My idea is to change the BV 10 to a BV 7 - is it is any better.. Otherwise I can live without a BV...
mbee:So if you want a cloud-free LCD, you have to choose a full-LED panel, but there are not a lot of products on the market (no product in the Samsung range, a few in Philips', LG's and Sony's ranges), at B&O the only one is the BV7-55, otherwise you have to go the plasma way.
Correct, yes. Which would also explain why the BV7-55 MKII has such a good universal picture with no bleeding. I definitely had some backlight bleed on my old BV7-40 MKIII. Less so on the BV10.
mbee: PS : Greg, I can explain that to you in your native language diisign.com
BeoGreg: First, the "majority" doesn't have any clouding on there Led panels.
First, the "majority" doesn't have any clouding on there Led panels.
No, I think you misunderstand. Most LCD TVs have some kind of backlight bleeding. However, as you've said in previous posts, you only see it in special conditions, such as a dark room and a dark screen. As these conditions represent only a small amount of TV viewing (most programmes don't result in a black/dark picture and, if they do, it's a very short number of frames), hardly anyone sees these "issues" on a daily basis. And when we do, we're more engrossed with the TV and our programmes than worrying about (relatively minor) backlighting issues.
As I said many posts ago, some people just won't be happy. In the watch buying business, some people just can't get their head around the fact their mechanical watch isn't as reliable as a £5 quartz watch. They think buy spending £10K, they should get perfection. No, doesn't work like that. Ironically the more complicated the mechanical watch, often the more likely it will lose a few seconds each day.
The same theory applies to thin designer LCD TVs. You can only do so much to prevent the backlight bleeding issues. They are there for everyone if they go looking - and you keep insisting we go looking - but most of us are just happy to live with our quality TVs. Frankly, we have better things to worry about.
If you want to completely eliminate backlight bleed, do what the others say and get plasma or upgrade to the full-LED BV7-55 MKII. You won't see any of the clouding/backlighting issues as it's powered in a completely different manner.
And, yes, you get backlight bleed on the brand new iPad 3 and, yes, some users complain about it. Most do not.