ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Hello!
I got myself a lovely Beogram 4000 yesterday. Cosmetically it's generally in very good condition, but it looks like it might need a few bits fixing up on it (why do I have the feeling that's going to be the understatement of the year...?).
I've been having a good look around the forums and at the excellent repair guide by one of you guys (Menahem / yachadm?) that's on condoraudio.com. So I have an idea of what might need doing, but I just wanted to get some expert advice before I dive in...
So, the issues:
I think that's enough to start with. I'm sure there'll be plenty more fun to be had. If anyone has any advice/encouragement on any of this before I get started, I'd be very grateful.
Thanks!
Jon
Yes new belts is a must, and Martin (Dillen) still sells the right ones, then clean and lubricate everything, Then try again with new belts.
Collecting Vintage B&O is not a hobby, its a lifestyle.
Forgot: Welcome to the forum, and the repair manual is available on the forum for silver and gold members, and we love pics
Thanks Soren! I'll send Dillen a message and see if I can get hold of some from him.
With regards to the cleaning and lubricating - any specific products that you'd recommend for it? I imagine these old circuits might be a bit more sensitive to some of the products out there than new ones... (sorry, maybe that's a silly question - I'm just being a bit paranoid over not wanting to wreck a piece of design history...)
ta!
Read this article by a fellow Beoworld member regarding a Beogram 4000 restoration and check his website. You can even contact him for advice via the link in the article or here on Beoworld (Menahem Yachad):
http://www.condoraudio.com/wp-content/uploads/Projects/BeoGram-4002-6000-Turntable-Restoration-Repair.pdf
His work is excellent and one of his restored Beograms sold for an astronomical price recently.
Also, do a search here on Beoworld for 'Beogram 4000' and you will be reading and learning for hours about these TT's.
Dave.
Hi Dave. Thanks for the tips. That's the article I was refering to in my origial post. His work is truely impressive. I've also been reading through a forum thread where he fixed up a 4000 from dead. It's been very helpful.
Ok, I had a proper look at the thing last night, took the covers off and took a few pictures. It's had a few bits and pieces done to it already.
The belts both look new, so it's either not a speed issue - with the arm dropping when it shouldn't - or the belts aren't the right fit. I don't suppose there's any way of telling if it's one of Dillen's belts or not just by looking at it, or measuring it? (I did contact him yesterday, but he's all sold out of the belts.)Also, the service manual mentions that the drive belt has guides, but my TT doesn't appear to have any...
The tone arm belt has a square profile, but doesn't seem to sit very well. Shouldn't it have a round profile? Also the white pully on the end of the spindle is pretty wonky. Anyone know if you can get replacements of these? The service manual says they replaced the round belts/pullys with triangular ones at some point during their production. From what I remember these pullys look to be designed for a round belt. It does seem to run smooth when I rotate it by hand, so I'm thinking the judder ismaybe more likely caused by the arm sticking on the slider and a bit of lube will help...
There's a resistor on the board just below the solenoid that doesn't look original. Anyone know what this is doing? And another one running horizontally under the arms... The boards got a lot of oxidation on it so will see if it starts behaving better after a good cleanup.
This is the whole thing. A couple of the capacitors look to have been updated already. I didn't thake the main board off because it was already getting late by this point, but I'll have a look at this at the weekend.
I think the lights might have already been changed to LEDs - they look to be very bright and blue. I think I need to adjust the suspension on it too, the platter is lower on the bottom left side
I did have a look at the buttons too. The up^ and off buttons just aren't connecting to the little nibs underneath, and the metal springs aren't holding everything in place very firmly. The 33/45 buttons work well, so I'll take that apart and see if I can get the others to match it.
So any tips or adivice - especially on what might be causing the arm to drop when it shouldn't - would be greatly appreciated.
ta,
Hi Jon,
I think the square profile belt is correct from memory. The guide rails and screw thread drive mechanisms don't look like they have any lubrication on them at all from your pictures. A clean and lubrication may help some of your problems. I can't see any grease at all.
The Blue LED lights are obviously not original but I think look quite soothing.
You have an MMC20CL on your tonearm but I'd advise you to remove it whilst you are dismantling the TT and playing around. It's very expensive to replace it if you accidentaly damage it - or at least put a guard cover on it.
I also can't remember if this is one of them but some TT belts are more rough on one side compared to the other and need to be fitted the correct way round to 'grip' the sub platter.
I wouldn't worry about the change to RCA connectors from the original DIN connectors - unless you want to connect it directly to a B&O amp. If it works fine as it is (especially with a non-B&O amp), leave it alone unless you want to return it to 'original' spec. I don't know why people just don't buy a convertor/adapter rather than hacking things to bits!
The white pulley on mine also has a wobble but didn't affect it's playing.
Upgrade to Silver or Gold to get the manual online on Beoworld. That also gives you the specs for lubricants and places to use it etc. It's invaluable.
Sounds like it possibly has a detector issue as it's not discriminating between 7" and 12" records.
Liquid Bearings (on eBay and Amazon) is fantastic synthetic oil to use.
Good luck.
The voltaic cell inside the sensorarm will not produce any usable voltage from the light of a LED.I would check this as the first thing.
The speed indicator lights look all blue'ish, ugly and wrong.
It's a strange idea some people have that LEDs will last forever. They are nothing but diodes andLEDs even wear down and lose intensity over time.I would fit bulbs as designed and forget about the LEDs.Works every time.
Martin
Hi Martin,
I actually quite like the blue in the display - I hadn't noticed the sensor arm light which you are of course quite right about. It's nice we all have different tastes. In the right environment I can see the blue working out OK. But yes, original is probably best.
Hi Chaps
Thanks for the help.
I did consider the LED might be causing a problem with the sensor - but I'd seen that Menahem had changed his to an LED during his restorations (http://archivedarchivedforum2.beoworld.org/forums/t/40579.aspx?PageIndex=1 & the condoraudio guide, step 8) So I dismissed it as a possibility... Maybe it's a different spec LED? So am I likely to be able to just switch the bulb straight back, or will there have been some resistors switched around too, that need switching back? (I think I already know the answer to this...) Is that maybe what the extra resistor under the arm/solenoid is doing?
Is it the 6v 30mA lamp?
I'm not hugely averse to the LEDs as an aesthetic in themselves, but as this is a classic piece of design, I do think I'd prefer to return it back to it's original look. (maybe I'll do the speed indicator lights later though - I'll concentrate on getting it operational first.)
Dave - Don't worry about the cartridge, it was already sans-stylus when I bought it. I thought I might as well leave it on to protect the contacts on the end of the arm... It's good for little else.
I have a copy of the service manual already - but I'll look into upgrading anyway. It's a very helpful site, so I'd be happy to contribute.
ta
tenzing: So am I likely to be able to just switch the bulb straight back, or will there have been some resistors switched around too, that need switching back?
So am I likely to be able to just switch the bulb straight back, or will there have been some resistors switched around too, that need switching back?
Who knows...
tenzing: Is it the 6v 30mA lamp?
No, it's a 5V-something. I can supply a correct lamp but put a scope to the sensor signal at the board first andlook for peaks consistent with the reflections on/off the radial streaks on the platter.This will tell you if the lamp/sensor assy is working.
I wholeheartedly agree with Martin here. I think LEDs are uuuugly (Steve Jobs comparing the original iMac to grey PCs) and not right in vintage equipment. I never use them, especially white ones. Bulbs are fine and durable: many vintage devices I have still have their original bulbs - for instance, my G36 from 1966! Careful handling is of course a bonus.
Please clean the inside of that Beogram 4000 first things first, okay? It gives me motivation to work on clean equipment!
I think the square pad is not fitted correctly. The SM explains how to do this properly.
Thanks for the pictures, we like 'em here
Jacques
I totally agree with Jacques and Martin, about the LED: Furthermore if a bulb has been exchanged with a LED there is normally a resistor inserted in the circuit to accommodate the LED, so check carefully against the schematics. And get the right bulbs.
After seven BGs, 2 CDs, 2 Tape cassette recorders and one RtoR I have found that nothing is more important than cleaning and lubricating, not only the mechanics also all connectors, switches and open contacts (Deoxit). One dirty contact or a point not lubricated can give failures where you search for hours.
And nice pics, now we need a pic when clean.
The Beogram 4000 is an amazing combination of design and function… and in my opinion superior to the 4002/4004 which replaced it.
It has been years since I needed to do any work on my Beogram 4000, so I have little technical info to offer at this time. No loss there as Martin is our B&O maven (He repaired my 4000) and I am convinced that Jacques and Søren can repair anything.
Also Menahem is quite the Beogram 4000 expert as he has repaired a LOT of them.
That said I totally agree with Martin and Jacques, the LED blue lamps look odd, so I would replace them with bulbs. (Sorry Dave) Plus the LED probably is causing a scanning problem allowing the tonearm to drop when there is no record.
I will watch this thread with genuine interest, but will step back and allow the guys with the REAL knowledge to advise you.
Jeff
Beogram 4000, Beogram 4002, Beogram 4004, Beogram 8000, Beogram 8002, Beogram 1602. Beogram 4500 CD player, B&O CDX player, Beocord 4500, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 5000 T4716, Beocord 8004, Beocord 9000, Beomaster 1000, Beomaster 1600, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 2400.2, Beomaster 4400, Beomaster 4500, Beolab 5000, Beomaster 5000, BeoCenter 9000. BeoSound Century, S-45.2, S-45.2, S-75, S-75, M-75, M-100, MC 120.2 speakers; B&O Illuminated Sign (with crown & red logo). B&O grey & black Illuminated Sign, B&O black Plexiglas dealer sign, B&O ash tray, B&O (Orrefors) dealer award vase, B&O Beotime Clock. Navy blue B&O baseball cap, B&O T-shirt X2, B&O black ball point pen, B&O Retail Management Binder
Hey. Thanks everyone.
Yes, yes. I'll give it a clean. Feeling ashamed of my dirty beo... In my defense, I've only owned it for a couple of days...
I'm pretty sure the resistor directly below the arm is LED related - it looks to match Menahem's setup. Hopefully whoever did the LED conversion followed Menahem's guide, and I can reverse it.
Martin - thanks very much for the offer to provide the correct bulbs. I found the note in the service manual where they mention reducing the voltage in the lamp part way through production, so that would explain it being 5v. I think I need to check a resistor was updated at the time as well. I don't have a scope myself, but we might have one at work I could use. I'll ask on Monday.
Jacques - the pad is very wobbly, but it's attached as it should be. The metal clips are just too flexible and bent. I saw somewhere on here someone else with the same problem. I'll have to find the thread again.
Thanks again. You're all marvelous!
J
Everyone at BeoWorld is here to help, and that includes me. However, surprise, I am going to ask your help.
If you find some “secret” to adjusting the clips under the control pads, kindly let me know.
Mine arrived all too loose and I “adjusted” them to the best of my ability.
They work OK, BUT if I am careless (I seldom am with this 4000) and press too hard the on/off button pops off and has to be reconnected.
No big deal, and I suspect it is just more attention to detail, but I thought I’d ask.
One thing though, when you get your Beogram 4000 working as it should, it will amaze you.
The other guys are kind of reserved, but I am not, and I can tell you of all the material things I own my absolute favourite is Beogram 4000. (My Seeburg jukebox is a close second, but it is that, second to the Beogram 4000.)
The impeccable perfection of design, the over the top engineering, and frankly the performance is breathtaking.
Enjoy!
Hey Jeff,
I can only agree. I have one fully operational Beogram 4000 (although only minor corrections had to be made, it took me some nerves to get there). I play it through a Beomaster 7000 with integrated original RIAA and use Pentas most of the time. Design and performance are superb and probably as good as it gets when listening to vinyl.
Greetings,
Kai
Hi Kai,
I am fortunate enough to have one of less than a handful of functioning Beogram 4000’s in North America.
Mine arrived in shambles, the result of extremely poor packing/shipping, but thankfully BeoWorld members helped me to get it back in running condition.
My Beogram 4000 is mated with an awesome McIntosh 2255 and Linn Isomeric/McIntosh ML2 speakers.
A devastating combination.
The stylus is a discarded MMC20CL that my dealer insisted I replace, and I kept it as a spare.
One of my favourite stories, a true one is concerning a real audiophile friend of mine who asked to hear my much talked about Beogram 4000. A really nice guy who brought his own records to hear on my “fabled” system.
I watched him with great interest as he listened with eyes closed, rocking ever so slightly back and forth.
As he left the otherwise quite afternoon visit, at the door he turned to me, thanked me for the opportunity to hear my Beogram 4000 and added, “And thanks a lot; my system is crap.”
That is an exact quote. While I had no intention of making him feel badly about his stereo system, it was none the less a remarkable compliment of the Beogram 4000.
Hi Jon
I just saw your thread posting now, otherwise I would have jumped in earlier.
That resistor is very likely for the LED mod - check the voltage before and after the resistor.
The wobbling of the pulley is likely due to a microscopic crack in the plastic, exactly where the small set-screw creates a lock on the shaft. Remove the pulley, soak it in warm water with dishwashing soap, (to dissolve any possible oils inside the crack), then blow dry, and tweak some superglue into the crack.
Yes, I like LED's (but not everywhere). I do not replace them just for the sake of newness. In fact, I am violently prejudiced against anything new, until it has proven itself superior to the old familiar tried-and-tested equipment. My main motivation for replacing with LED's is to prevent heat damage to surrounding plastic parts (which is unfortunately very common with these BeoGrams).
And I like only LED's which don't look like LED's. That means on a vintage BeoGram, the LED's should have a warm-white color, which closely matches the original incandescent color frequency. Definitely NOT Blue LED's as on this BeoGram.
Lube oils - light-machine grade (sewing machine or hair-clipper) is just fine.
So let us know how you're getting on.
Menahem