ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
a Co-Operative ? there are enough of us on Beoworld and I'm up for a little investment flutter....
we tend to forget there is more to design than designing.
I am a bit split in regards to what I think about Tue.
He's had some great ideas: BeoPlay, and trying to conquer the Chinese market. Also we've seen B&O news all over the internet since his arrival.
However the design of BeoPlay product is somehow questionable. Everyone I show the V1 to don't like the hinges for example.
I also think he has delayed the development of the newer generation of products (NL) initiated by the previous CEO, thinking that rich people don't care if they don't have the latest techno. This has resulted in a unsellable product line for a few years.
You can do all the marketing you want, if the products are not up to scratch, they won't sell. Today (but that will hopefully change with the release of the Beosound Moment), I could not recommend to anyone to buy a B&O hifi.
Only in the last year can we finally see great products appear: the line of WISA speakers, and the AVANT.
Tue is a Marketing guy, the previous CEO, Karl Kristian Hvidt was a technical guy.
Karl's strategy was to create a single digital platform so that product development would be faster and cheaper. I think NL products are the outcome of this strategy and they should sell well as soon as the whole range has made the transition and if software isn't too buggy. Karl had returned the company to the black.
As a technical guy myself, I think I preferred Karl's strategy. Making better products, fining a way to make them cheaper, at let their quality sell them.
If only those two had been able to work together...
Beoworld app with direct photo upload and emoticons.
I'll never forget being at the launch of the Serenata and seeing the Samsung 'chiefs' there in Berlin. I've never seen execs from a company look so disinterested and bored during a product launch, and I've never seen anyone leave so fast when it came to a 'meet the team' Q&A session with the international press. They just walked straight out as soon as the presentation finished. Not interested. Goodbye. You're not important enough.
Apple, for me, would be a no-brainer. Apple love cool, stylish, effortless - and things that just work. This, to me, typifies a B&O product too...
Apple have bags of spare cash, a reputation for great quality products - and they respect the Danes, Danish design and Danish culture.
Lee
B&O don't need 'a buyer' - they need an investment partner to be able to expand the sales.
They need cash for better marketing and better sales operation.
They need to be present in the market today. No product - no matter how good it may be - will sell on it's own. This is extremely important.
And again - if the cash flow isn't there, there can be no further products/product development.
Imo - they do have a great product line as of today (for such a small company), and they do have the NL running. The problem is to communicate that fact - even many Beoworlders don't seem to have realized what NL (and the BLGW) can do.
That said - it is and will be extremely complicated to sell an audio-only product today. Who really needs an audiosystem in times of streaming from portable devices to all sorts of boxes with or without built-in speakers?
I am looking forward to see how the Moment integrates with the NL-BV's. I have a feeling, that we will be quite surpriced from, what they have developped during the last couple of years.
All in all I am not that sceptic. If B&O finds an investor, who will accept, what B&O stands for and is willing to support the integrety of the company, we will be fine.
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
9 LEE: I'll never forget being at the launch of the Serenata and seeing the Samsung 'chiefs' there in Berlin. I've never seen execs from a company look so disinterested and bored during a product launch, and I've never seen anyone leave so fast when it came to a 'meet the team' Q&A session with the international press. They just walked straight out as soon as the presentation finished. Not interested. Goodbye. You're not important enough. Apple, for me, would be a no-brainer. Apple love cool, stylish, effortless - and things that just work. This, to me, typifies a B&O product too... Apple have bags of spare cash, a reputation for great quality products - and they respect the Danes, Danish design and Danish culture. Lee
Can't see it myself, I just can't see Apple willing to accept 2nd billing in the product branding - it wouldn't take long for the products to become branded Apple rather than B&O - at that point all is lost.
Ban boring signatures!
Puncher: Can't see it myself, I just can't see Apple willing to accept 2nd billing in the product branding - it wouldn't take long for the products to become branded Apple rather than B&O - at that point all is lost.
Toyota created Lexus, Mazda made Infiniti, Apple can have B&O surely?
I haven't seen them replacing the Beats logo with the Apple logo as yet either..
9 LEE: Puncher: Can't see it myself, I just can't see Apple willing to accept 2nd billing in the product branding - it wouldn't take long for the products to become branded Apple rather than B&O - at that point all is lost. Toyota created Lexus, Mazda made Infiniti, Apple can have B&O surely? I haven't seen them replacing the Beats logo with the Apple logo as yet either.. Lee
To be fair, if I was Apple, I wouldn't put my logo on Beats headphones either!
PhilLondon: Tue is a Marketing guy, the previous CEO, Karl Kristian Hvidt was a technical guy. Karl's strategy was to create a single digital platform so that product development would be faster and cheaper. I think NL products are the outcome of this strategy and they should sell well as soon as the whole range has made the transition and if software isn't too buggy. Karl had returned the company to the black. As a technical guy myself, I think I preferred Karl's strategy. Making better products, fining a way to make them cheaper, at let their quality sell them. If only those two had been able to work together...
Totally agree, the current NL is a mess. Kalle really was starting to turn things around, BeoSound 8 etc.
His vision was to have a seamless sytem. We are a long way from that now and all the money has gone.................................
With a great marketeer as a partner (maybe Tue?) things would have been good.
When the show is run by PR people there is a tendency for BS to take over :)
Well, when you chase yachts, luxury hotels and Chinese millionaires, don't be surprised if you lose sight of your core market. I've written enough about my thoughts on where B&O "went wrong" in the mid-2000s. The company's brand cachet was eminently placed to benefit from the digital content now available through streams, etc -- and the store footprint was brilliant for creating experience "playgrounds" where those benefits could be displayed. Stopping for a demo at the B&O store could have been a given.
Instead we got idiotic marketing and a gradual disconnect from "ordinary" customers who got the feeling B&O didn't consider them important any longer. Piggy-backing active loudspeakers to laptops and mobile devices is still possible, but requires an all-out effort to communicate the advantages - I haven't seen that all-out effort.
Hoping for the best for the brand.
Totally agree with you Soundproof. I knew things were bad when they launched that 105" TV. It was the most vulgar, crass and downright scummy thing that I'd ever seen - totally not how I knew B&O.
Lee had some very good points with regards to Apple AND he knew Samsung management in the same way that I do!
Just think about it... (Warning: Irony might occur): Apple buys B&O - put their logo on the front of the TV-sets... Voila - the long awaited TV from Apple that some people have been talking about for years. The TV to end all other TV's...People will line up in front of the Glass temples, screaming and crying. I can already hear the crowd:"Is it better than other TV sets? - I don't know... I don't care...There's an Apple on it...". "Please, take my money and give me one of those divine devices. And next year - when the 'S' model comes out - I will buy one of those too...".
Thousands of new jobs at the new B&O - eh, sorry: Foxxcon Plant in China...
Well - isn't that some kind of a future dream / nightmare (please strikethrough the unwanted word) scenario..?
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
Saying that Apple would put their logo on a TV on such a strong brand is a bit out there lol. They purchased Beats and they won't put their logo on Beats. Everyone would know a strong brand is a strong brand.
They need cash / investment, not identity.
Aussie Michael: They need cash / investment, not identity.
Aussie Michael: Saying that Apple would put their logo on a TV on such a strong brand is a bit out there lol. They purchased Beats and they won't put their logo on Beats. Everyone would know a strong brand is a strong brand. They need cash / investment, not identity.
agree Apple are too smart and understand branding like no other (could also complement their new HomeKit system launched at Viva Las Vegas), but some of these giants still baffles me like why Microsoft ditched the Nokia brand name.
B&O are victims of circumstance. You either adapt or go bust. When you go bust someone in China buys the rights to your brand name and starts churning out rubbish with your well known name. Any number of defunct German and Swiss brand watches are now being made in China for a few dollars. Same with a lot of old British electronics company names.
There are big risks for B&O whatever they do. I think of Saab as a simlar example. Major private family shareholders found partner in Scania, but eventually sold out to General Motors. Unlike Apple, GM itself ran out of cash, was bailed-out by the US government, but had to rationalise its operations. Saab was dumped, but only after GM had taken all its innovative design and intellectual property for use in the other GM brands.
Until patents run out, B&O should be making much more out of ICEpower and getting it openly branded on other manufacturers products, rather like Intel on computers. I always see great irony in the continued lack of respect for B&O on audiophile sites, and the praise for competitors like B&W. Don't B&W products now have ICEpower class D amplifiers inside?
Graham
vikinger:Until patents run out, B&O should be making much more out of ICEpower and getting it openly branded on other manufacturers products, rather like Intel on computers.
Which a certain US manufacturer refused to do, why think they would make an exception for B&O?
BeoBoy68: As I thought from the beginning Tue Mantoni sank the company. He didn't understand Bang & Olufsen's spirit. Bad boy ! joke on
As I thought from the beginning Tue Mantoni sank the company.
He didn't understand Bang & Olufsen's spirit.
Bad boy ! joke on
Hear hear!
I think this man should be a little less self-obsessed.
He got a pair of shoes 5 sizes too big when he took on B&O. What would have been needed is someone understanding the company, it's customers, economics, and the luxury industry as a whole.
Too long to list....
Puncher: vikinger:Until patents run out, B&O should be making much more out of ICEpower and getting it openly branded on other manufacturers products, rather like Intel on computers. Which a certain US manufacturer refused to do, why think they would make an exception for B&O?
https://www.apple.com/asia/intel/
Mark: Aussie Michael: Saying that Apple would put their logo on a TV on such a strong brand is a bit out there lol. They purchased Beats and they won't put their logo on Beats. Everyone would know a strong brand is a strong brand. They need cash / investment, not identity. agree Apple are too smart and understand branding like no other (could also complement their new HomeKit system launched at Viva Las Vegas), but some of these giants still baffles me like why Microsoft ditched the Nokia brand name.
Nokia is not known in the US market.
vikinger: Puncher: vikinger:Until patents run out, B&O should be making much more out of ICEpower and getting it openly branded on other manufacturers products, rather like Intel on computers. Which a certain US manufacturer refused to do, why think they would make an exception for B&O? https://www.apple.com/asia/intel/
http://www.zdnet.com/article/mac-vs-pc-still-in-sticker-shock/
They didn't punt them on because they had spent years dissing PC's and Intel are didn't want the majority to realize that they were now selling PC hardware in nice clothes!
Puncher: http://www.zdnet.com/article/mac-vs-pc-still-in-sticker-shock/ They didn't punt them on because they had spent years dissing PC's and Intel are didn't want the majority to realize that they were now selling PC hardware in nice clothes!
Nice clothes should not have stickers.
On the other hand there is nothing wrong with companies acknowledging that they use ICEpower (except, of course, it might be perceived as a cheap way of getting B&O, thus undermining B&O's own consumer products!)
According to Wikipedia,
ICEpower "Current customers seem to include Alpine, Aston Martin, Asus, Audi, Bowers & Wilkins, Fender Musical Instruments Corporation, Eclipse by Fujitsu Ten, Genz-Benz, Jeff Rowland, MartinLogan, Pioneer, PS Audio, Rotel, Seymour AV, Vazari Audio, Samsung as well as Bang & Olufsen."
But the referenced link to B&O's own site reads a rather more discrete list
"Since ICEpower’s establishment, we have shipped more than 100 million ICEpower channels to over 70 customers all over the world. Our revenues and profits have shown steady growth enabling us to undertake ambitious R&D projects. ICEpower customers and partners include some of the world’s most prestigious brands, such as Bang & Olufsen, Bowers & Wilkins, Pioneer, Alpine, Samsung and Audi"
vikinger: Puncher: http://www.zdnet.com/article/mac-vs-pc-still-in-sticker-shock/ They didn't punt them on because they had spent years dissing PC's and Intel are didn't want the majority to realize that they were now selling PC hardware in nice clothes! Nice clothes should not have stickers. On the other hand there is nothing wrong with companies acknowledging that they use ICEpower (except, of course, it might be perceived as a cheap way of getting B&O, thus undermining B&O's own consumer products!) According to Wikepedia, ICEpower "Current customers seem to include Alpine, Aston Martin, Asus, Audi, Bowers & Wilkins, Fender Musical Instruments Corporation, Eclipse by Fujitsu Ten, Genz-Benz, Jeff Rowland, MartinLogan, Pioneer, PS Audio, Rotel, Seymour AV, Vazari Audio, Samsung as well as Bang & Olufsen." But the referenced link to B&O's own site reads a rather more discrete list "Since ICEpower’s establishment, we have shipped more than 100 million ICEpower channels to over 70 customers all over the world. Our revenues and profits have shown steady growth enabling us to undertake ambitious R&D projects. ICEpower customers and partners include some of the world’s most prestigious brands, such as Bang & Olufsen, Bowers & Wilkins, Pioneer, Alpine, Samsung and Audi" Graham
According to Wikepedia,
There's been no fanfare from CES but they have just released a whole new range of ICEpower amps and modules
http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/en/news/news?id=76
I had this discussion about labels and stickers with a buyer i worked with. When i asked if she'd therefore not mind me removing the 3 pointed star from the front of her new Mercedes, the discussion moved on! We all do it.
KMA
B&O product history since 1991: Ridiculously long to list in a signature.
Millemissen: Easy now. The chairman was asked - what else could he have answered, when asked that question? I am sure they have several different 'Plan B's' in Struer. MM
Easy now.
The chairman was asked - what else could he have answered, when asked that question?
I am sure they have several different 'Plan B's' in Struer.
You have it right. The answer may not have been as evasive as most CEOs do but it is a publicly held company. All listed companies are in a sense for sale. To say otherwise in this situation would have been worse.
Hopefully the Board will do something. Tue's strategy obviously whether we like the products or not, the concepts or not, the man or not, have failed his job of steering B&O away from the cliffs of doom.
Raeuber:Something will happen with B&O and/or Tue this year, that's for sure. Yesterday the Moment has been presented. And what happens today? Another 2 percent loss of the stock... Regards Räuber
Yesterday the Moment has been presented. And what happens today? Another 2 percent loss of the stock...
Regards
Räuber
If people act like I would (if I had stock) I'd sell it! The Moment isn't something that will sell.
Being honest, I really don't think it's Tues fault. The world has evolved and changed so much. People consume music at the gym, running, playing sport, driving their cars. It's very different to the 1980s and 1970s when you'd spend more time at home listening to a hifi system. I'm a guilty for it as anyone young person. 15 years ago, i spent all of my college money on hifi separates, speakers, £1000 SVHS video recorders, hi8 camcorders - I threw the lot away when I relocated in 2005. Now my iPhone is my hifi system, my HD video player, it plays my HD movies, it streams my Netflix.
In reality HOW WOULD YOU GUYS OF DONE BANG&OLUFSEN differently?
Paul W: Being honest, I really don't think it's Tues fault. The world has evolved and changed so much. People consume music at the gym, running, playing sport, driving their cars. It's very different to the 1980s and 1970s when you'd spend more time at home listening to a hifi system. I'm a guilty for it as anyone young person. 15 years ago, i spent all of my college money on hifi separates, speakers, £1000 SVHS video recorders, hi8 camcorders - I threw the lot away when I relocated in 2005. Now my iPhone is my hifi system, my HD video player, it plays my HD movies, it streams my Netflix. In reality HOW WOULD YOU GUYS OF DONE BANG&OLUFSEN differently?
Firstly, I'm not on their payroll, so it's not my problem. If I was, it would be my problem. I will exist just as well if they're bankrupt, bought by Samsung to be chopped and raped or just find their Mojo and do fine once again.
What we need isn't necessarily what we buy choose to spend money on. No one need a Patek watch, still some of us buy a Patek. No woman really need a Hermés Birkin bag, still they have a waiting list of years! No one need a flawless 2ct diamond on their finger, yet a lot of us buy that ring.
However, if the Patek had a 7750 valjoux in it, and made by a machine I doubt many would spend that money on it. If the Birkin was made in a sweatshop in Asia or with same leather a 300 euro Longchamp I doubt many would want it. If that diamond was essentially a piece of glass we would put something else on our finger, or better yet our to-be wife's finger.
It's a crude way of trying to get my point trough, but ever since B&O started the re-branding of equipment they have slowly failed themselves. This goes back, further than any Beoplay products.
To have a great design isn't a recipe for success anymore. Great design is everywhere, heck even Samsung can make a nice looking TV set. Not to mention what Apple can design.
What is lacking from today's B&O is Originality. Doing what no-one else though of. What no-one else thought possible, practical, sensible, feasible. Perhaps the world don't need these anymore... If so, B&O just trow in your towel, no point trying.
I dug up some old B&O Catalogs from my closet and noted some glaring differences between the 80s/90s and today. The number of products B&O makes has skyrocketed.
Like Apple today, who is shuffling engineers from OSX to iOS to Hardware (and sending groups to work on standards like USB type-C), and as many recent online articles have stated, bugs galore in Yosemite. MAinly due to the breakneck pace of yearly updates and not having enough manpower, which leads to lack of focus.
Maybe B&O needs to focus only on one or two core strengths (as I had mentioned in an earlier post). I can remember when B&O had one television (and VCR), two sound systems, and 4 speaker options in their catalog. Of course that's in the US, Europe had more, but not nearly as many products as they have today. Maybe this "rush" and lack of focus is what lead to the Avant Mk1 woes which this forum was full of when it was launched? I don't know.
How about focusing on strengths, "B&O, yeah, that's the company that makes those cool speakers, right?" maybe that's the statement which B&O should strive for. Sound systems, streamers, speakers, etc. Diversification doesn't seem to be working. Additionally, B&O stores, I don't know the business model for them, but they can't be helping matters. It is nice to have specialists out there, but overhead affects margins.
For those in the states, remember when B&O was sold in higher end electronics stores? Maybe they need to move to that model again.
And then there's price -- yes, I went there (and yes, I know no one NEEDS B&O). But it would be nice if B&O was a brand which was only slightly more attainable. We are all HUGE fans of B&O and would spend the premium, but what would make the non B&O fanboy pull the trigger? I'm not saying compete with the mass market brands, but compete better on price than it is currently. A true sign of B&O's fortunes would be to see how they would do if they dropped prices a bit and sales still tank. A media streamer like the Moment, yes, it looks cool, is made of nice materials, and has nifty software. But is it $2795US worth of niftiness? Arguable.
Radical change is needed, we all thought the price point of the Avant was amazing (it is, especially considering the David Lewis model here in the states was around $8500 way back when). The introduction of the Avant apparently hasn't worked, now they introduce 77 and 85 models up to $25K... if the smaller one didn't work, why would they think the larger options would? Are they producing them made to order? I hope so.
Enough of my ranting. I just hope 2015 doesn't see the end of B&O my 40th birthday is coming up in a couple of years, and I've already told my wife I want major B&O items, and it wouldn't be a pleasant experience if the company went under before then.
I agree Sal B&O have kind of grown a vulgar style about them which to me, an educated guy comes across as pure greed. Look at the 75 and 85" Avant it's pure greed and its revolting. It's not the classy origins of B&O and as you point out if sales of a 55" aren't brilliant they why the heck are they producing a larger size?
Anyway maybe you can treat yourself to an early 40th present and buy an A8 B&O - it'l work with your smartphone, sounds quite pleasant and won't become obsolete over the next few years :)
Completely agree with you Sal.
From the tone of some on here it would seem that some are itching for B&O to fail. The only way any company can survive is if customers buy product i.e. new product. How many of us are those customers? To me it seems that the company is heading in the right direction, especially as it was particularly badly hit by a combination of a global economic crisis and the advent of fast moving new technologies which it was slow to adapt to. It is a great brand and it would be a shame if it was lost.
As always everyone is an armchair general.
Propaganda, your statement is as amusing as it is wrong.
We don't need to buy their products, a product should sell itself! Either because we want it, and can't live without it, or because we need it/have actual use for it.
Business isn't good-will or samaritan work. A failing business is usually just that, failing.
I have a failing fruit business, anyone care for my rotten tomatoes? 10% off! Come on now, we're all friends you must buy from me!
Bayerische, you are right in a certain way.
We do not need to buy their products, but they do need to sell their products.
Yes they need compelling products. As far as I know the Avant and the latest generation of speakers have been a success. You clearly were not impressed by the Moment, but I was and will buy when it is available - so on that we will differ. However I am not sure you have any idea as to what would be the way forward. Sometime it is a matter of consumer confidence that propels a business forward, so given the negativity here they are surely doomed.
propaganda: ...It is a great brand and it would be a shame if it was lost. As always everyone is an armchair general.
...It is a great brand and it would be a shame if it was lost.
I think we're all armchair generals (by the way I love that phrase ) because we all care, and don't want to see the brand go away.
Even if all of us on these forums bought one or two pieces from B&O next week, it wouldn't turn their fortunes, would it? Hence all of the postulating, second guessing and constructive criticism. This entire thread is coming from a good place, hoping for the best, but maybe preparing for the worst.
Propaganda, I'm glad for your sake that you liked the Moment, nice for you and for B&O.
I was disappointed, as I too would like to get rid of my BS9000, replace it with something preferably B&O. My Mac Mini now serves as my gateway to music. It's perfectly fine, but I want something a bit more blingy. Something along the lines of my BL5's and BV5's. It's not exactly cool to think it's a computer behind the TV that does all the "magic". I've come very close to buying the Encore, but decided against it. My wife not liking the design doesn't exactly help. Do I need to mention she hates the Moment. Wood (pun intended) isn't the easiest thing to sell a woman anyway.
The Encore is IMHO damn good looking, I'm not just over the moon about getting up to change music. And I'm not sure if "Radio Margaritaville" is on it's radio station list? (Can someone check please?)