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Hi all
I've recently began using my Beogram 9000 again, however I've experienced some really heavy sibilance issues. I also believe that I am somehow causing damage to my records with my setup. It's not as obvious on new vinyl but on older albums it's really quite noticeable. My cartridge is a SoundSmith MMC4 which I bought last year, my tracking weight is 1.2mm. My current set up is as follows:
Denon hi-fi
Cambridge Audio 551P Amplifier
BeoGram 9000
Grounded DIN cable/grounded Phono double-ended cable
I have a carbon fibre brush that I use to remove static, so it's not a dust issue.
Please someone help!
-WhatsGoingOn
A video would help :)
"You think we can slap some oak on this thing?"
I never managed to completely get rid of Sibilance on my Beogram 5005 (which has the same internals as the 9000) tried many different stylus profiles from Shibata to fine line and was never satisfied. I put it down to the short tonearm. In the end I replaced it with a Beogram 6006 (8000 with black buttons) and all my problems went away.
A couple of things to try... Is the stylus completely clean? Check it with a magnifying glass. Also is the room cold? The mmc's are temperature sensitive (I was told this is not the case, but after much testing I am certain it is), it particularly effects the upper frequencies if the room is below 16 degrees, I believe the colder temperatures makes the polymer in the suspension less compliant and this would cause miss-tracking particularly on sibilant passages.
Lee
That's odd. I do agree that the tonearm does seem a bit rubbish...
The stylus is pretty much brand new so I'd be surprised if there is buildup on it. Every time I check it there always seems to be a bi t of fluff dangling off the edge and always pull it off with tweezers - however doesn't change anything. The room it's in is very warm so that shouldn't be an issue either, however it was kept in storage for a very long time (10-15 years). It was a lot worse before we got the cartridge changed however it's still there. There is little to no sibilance on newer records but I just want to make sure that I am not damaging them during use.
Is there any way to fix the suspension issue?
It doesn't take much crud to cause deterioration in sound quality so I would definitely check that first.. Don't clean it with tweezers, that's could easily chip the diamond. The best way I have found to clean the stylus is with a piece of Magic Eraser foam (google "magic eraser stylus cleaner" and you'll find lots of info on using it) Also try upping the tracking force to 1.4g and see if that makes a difference.
Are you sure your old records are clean?
I have cleaned them all using a warm cloth in the grooves and nothing changed.
I've just been reading about the SMMC4 and a few people prefer them tracking at a higher weight. It's always better to track slightly higher than too low. Give it a try... The sibilant sound you hear is probably the stylus loosing contact with the groove wall and could well be damaging your records. I'd set it at 1.5g if I was you.. But first things first... make sure the stylus is spotless!!!
Yeah, I will do nothing more until I clean the stylus. Does Robert Dyas sell Magic Eraser - I believe it's a JML product in UK so they probably will.
Yes I believe they do
Just got back. Used the magic eraser and increased the tracking weight to 1.45g and although it has improved I'm still getting sibilance. Any ideas?
WhatsGoingOn: Just got back. Used the magic eraser and increased the tracking weight to 1.45g and although it has improved I'm still getting sibilance. Any ideas?
I'd also try washing the records properly with a rotary cleaner - you'd be amazed what a difference it can make.
Secondly, just because the tonearm gauge says 1.4g, unless you actually measure with a digital scale, you don't really know and you could still be substantially under the weight you need.
Linear tracking decks should produce less sibilance than radial decks (the reasons for this are clearly spelled out on many vinyl forums) so I suspect it is still a cartridge issue. Are you sure the tonearm is all set-up properly according to the service manual for parallelism and that the cartridge is 90° to the record etc?
Dave.
When I buy used records I clean them with thee wood-glue method. Deeeeeeeeeep-cleansing
I put it slightly over 1.5 and it has decreased slightly again but am worried of increasing it further. The plate is even, and it's all in working order so I'm quite confused at the moment. It's a shame because the mids and lows sound beautiful but when you get that sharp "shhh" sounds it ruins the listening experience.
Like I said, although my test record is used and from 1979 it's been cleaned multiple times and no dust is coming off of the grooves. It's in immaculate condition so I don't think it's the vinyl.
I remember when I first got a Beogram - it was a 1902 - and it had a MMC20S cartridge. I found the sibilance annoying and changed to a MMC6000 which was and still is my favourite. No sibilance at all! The 20S had a spherical profile diamond and I was told the problem lay with an inability to track very high frequencies. Increasing tracking weight did seem to help.
Peter
Just because a record looks immaculate doesn't mean it hasn't been worn by a damaged stylus.. 1.5g isn't going to do any damage to the record so don't worry about that.
Have you tried the record on another turntable?
I haven't, no. I just played my new reissue of What's Going On and there's no sibilance - however I have noticed that when the record plays that it seems to go up and down as if it's been warped. The platter, when pushed down bounces back evenly. Could it be an issue with the transport screws? They've been unscrewed and put onto "play".
Getting horrible distortion. Really not sure, no pun intended, what's going on.
I think you need to try another cartridge that is known as being good. You may have the start of suspension failure in yours. I have a BG9000 that suffered distortion but only occassionally. Turned out to be suspension failure on the cartridge. Put a newly retipped one on and it's perfect.
Wash the record as suggested to at least dismiss it as the problem. Your test record may well be damaged.
Or at least get a proper cleaner that gets down into the grooves - e.g. discwasher. I, for one, have never heard of the "warm cloth" method.
Is it possible to fix the suspension? The cartridge is brand new from SoundSmith and cost almost $300. I tried a brand new vinyl after and although the sibilance was gone there is an issue with background distortion.
EDIT: MediaBob, I already have a carbon fibre brush that I use to get in the grooves. There was initially a lot of dust that was removed but no change in sound.
EDIT 2: I have uploaded a vinyl rip showing the sibilance issue. Notice how there is no sonic issue with the instrumental. https://www.dropbox.com/s/lnrb006qslb8jsg/Michael_Jackson~Rock_With_You~side1.aiff?dl=0
Can you try the cartridge on another turntable? I have an SMMC4 which only has 1 hour's use and I'm afraid I'm not overly impressed with it.
I'd forgotten it was an SMMC cartridge so in fact it shouldn't suffer the same suspension problem as the newer material is more durable (apparently). I'm still banking on - incorrect 'actual' tracking weight, dirty/worn/damaged record. Brand new vinyls also need washing as they are full of vinyl waste and releasing agents.
It is also possible as the cartridge is new that it hasn't bedded in yet. The suspension needs to be used for a while from new and the sound should improve over time. Or, worst case scenario - it is in some way defective. Best checking it on another TT.
Depending on where you are, another member may be able to do a temporary test swap of cartridges to see if yours is still a problem on another B&O TT and vice-versa with their known good cartridge.
If you search the forum you will find the method for testing BG linear TT's tracking weight with a digital scale. This is the only way to know the actual tracking weight. I've just had to do that on a Pro-ject TT that was supposedly set-up correctly for the cartridge but was actually underweight by 0.4g and was at the bare minimum of recommended force by Ortofon. A not insubstantial amount and it's made all the difference.
WhatsGoingOn:EDIT: MediaBob, I already have a carbon fibre brush that I use to get in the grooves. There was initially a lot of dust that was removed but no change in sound.
Those brushes do not adequately 'clean' the vinyl hence the suggestion of a cheap discwasher (as I and others also use). They make more difference than you can imagine over 'dry brushing/cleaning'. The dust isn't the only issue. Wet cleaning reduces static and removes other contaminants that brushing cannot.
Dave Farr:Or, worst case scenario - it is in some way defective. Best checking it on another TT.
In which case:
WARRANTY: All cartridges are warranted against defect in workmanship for a period of not less than one year. This warranty does not cover abuse, physical damage, or any failure deemed to be the result of improper use or modification. Cartridges are not returnable for refund and may only be exchanged for replacement or upgrade if deemed by The Soundsmith to be defective due to manufacturing defect.
I washed down another album with warm water, liquid soap and a sponge and then buffed it good after. Still no change. Tracking weight is currently at 1.5
WhatsGoingOn:Tracking weight is currently at 1.5
On the tonearm indicator - but could be anything!
I have tried to find the thread which breaks down the digital measure method but can't find it. Do you have it bookmarked at all?
WhatsGoingOn: I have tried to find the thread which breaks down the digital measure method but can't find it. Do you have it bookmarked at all?
No but as I remember it showed the method for a BG8000 or 8002. I'll see if I can find it.
Here we go. It's covered on both pages of this thread with pictures!
http://archivedforum2.beoworld.org/forums/t/12090.aspx?PageIndex=1
Thanks very much for the link Dave. I've played around with the tracking and nothing seems to be working.
Could it be a problem with my setup?
Where did you get your phono cable from? These can give issues.
If you try the cartridge on another TT to check it is OK. If the problem of sibilance persists, it's either a TT fault (electronics or set-up) or amp (excluding tweeter problems in your speakers). That is also something else to consider.
Dave
Just a cheap Amazon one. I'm going to buy a velvet brush with cleaning fluid and see if that helps. After using the static brush on 45rpm speed setting I've seen marginal improvement. I have a feeling the suspension is shot or my needle is faulty.
What should the angle of the needle be? I've noticed that mine slightly goes up at the end.
If you are only getting problems with your turntable, this would on the whole rule out the electronics. A turntable at the end of the day is a relatively simple device - it turns the record round - the clever bit is the cartridge. Now obviously supporting the record etc is important but this sounds like a cartridge issue to me. I am afraid I no longer have any MMC1-4 cartridges because what you need is to try another one. I also suggest you need to check the real tracking weight of the cartridge. If it is tracking at the correct weight - up to 1.5g - and another cartridge sounds fine, the fault is the cartridge. Soundsmith cartridges are quite bright sounding and this may exacerbate the issue but my SMMC20EN tracks fine and is not troubled by sibilance. The end of the stylus does go up a bit as it is flattened to attach the diamond. Soundsmith hand make these and they are usually pretty good. Certainly the alignment seems good on mine - interestingly they cut the diamond differently than B&O who used to have the square sides in line with the stylus but Soundsmith set theirs so the diagonal is across. Makes no difference to the sound.
I don't think that the cartridge is the problem because Im under the impression that their quality control is second to none, especially after being named a verified B&O parts shop.
Is there any troubleshooting regarding the wiring, phono stage etc?
Or issues with the transport screws on the bottom?
WhatsGoingOn: I don't think that the cartridge is the problem because Im under the impression that their quality control is second to none, especially after being named a verified B&O parts shop. Is there any troubleshooting regarding the wiring, phono stage etc?
Audi, BMW, Rolls Royce and B&O all have exceptional quality control but there cars can still break down straight from the garage and just check the new Avant 55" thread to see the problems with B&O's QC.
You seem to want to completely ignore the first probable root cause and meddle with anything else without first finding out if it is in fact the cartridge that is the issue. You have been given solid advice by several people all saying the same thing - use the cartridge on another TT or find another cartridge to use on your TT to either rule out your cart as the problem or not. If it's definitely not that, then, start to look for something else. You also said that your stylus seems to 'turn up at the end'. If that's true, it should not and may be the cause of the issue. It should be a sharp point easily visible under a small magnifier.
The transit screws are either undone fully or not and is simple to check.
I understand that it may be that simple going forward but I know of no one that has a Beogram. It doesn't help also that it's proprietary meaning I can't just walk into a record store and ask to test them, hence why I'm getting rid of all other variables first such as whether transport screws might be too tight or my wiring is faulty. The original cartridge that came with the TT is shot so I can't use that either.
Tend to agree with Dave - but you are using the cartridge with a non B&O amplifier. The MMC range is a moving iron cartridge, a sub-set of moving magnet cartridges. They follow the same RIAA curve but tend to have a lower output. They may also need a slightly different loading than some cartridges - clearly Beomasters are designed for this type of cartridge but your Denon may be less suited.
I think you need to try this cartridge in another deck to see if it is the cartridge - I wonder if you live near another B&O turntable owner - maybe someone on here - who can test this with you. Where do you live?
I managed to get my Beocenter working but the speakers need a lot of money spent on them to get them working - they are also propiertary if I'm not mistaken?
I live in East Sussex, UK. I wonder if maybe an official B&O repair center could test this? Do repair shops tend to have vintage hardware?
Why don't you go and see Lifestyle AV who sponsor this site - make an appointment and they can show you what is available and probably test your Beogram. You might find something to your taste there as well!