ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
I've sent them an e-mail asking if they have any working equipment that supports the MMC4. Will update thread as communications proceed.
WhatsGoingOn: I've sent them an e-mail asking if they have any working equipment that supports the MMC4. Will update thread as communications proceed.
They currently have a BG5500 and 6500 which will be suitable for your carridge. They are in Eastbourne and it's worth a visit to see Matt and Lee who are very knowmedgable and helpful.
For the cartridge that is defunct, you can always send it to Axel for repair:
http://www.schallplattennadeln.de/B-O-MMC-Reparatur-Repair/MMC-Repair-English/
It's worth following up on what Peter has said regarding your amp. Look up the specs and see what it says about the phono stage.
Dave.
Peter,
the Cambridge pre-amp is this one including specs. I don't know if this is any use for diagnosis:
http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/fr/node/61?language=en
We don't know what the Denon system is so can't find the specs. Maybe the OP can tell us which Denon 'Hi-fi' it is?
Just noticed that the amp I have is for Moving Magnet instead of Moving Coil - could this be an issue?
That could very well be the issue. MM carts have a much lower output than MC so you could very well be over driving the phono stage resulting in distortion.
Lee
Sorry I got a bit confused there. Moving Coil carts have a lower output than Moving Magnets. So the MM input should pose no problems.
So the MM amplifier wouldn't distort a MC tt? I read on other forums that it does.
A MM pre-amp expects a much louder input than a MC pre-amp. The output of a SMMC is too low to cause distortion on a MM pre-amp IMHO.
Just to be clear, the B&O cartridges are a moving-iron design. They are not moving coil. I have a lot of B&O turntables and cartridges with non-B&O preamplifiers and get great results using the MM (moving magnet) setting with a loading of 47k ohms and 330pF or 220pF.
Okay, great. I've set up an appointment with Lifestyle AV for Thursday. They've asked for me to bring the TT and the cartridge - I will probably also bring the test record I used to see if it has the same sibilance problem on their setup.
Thanks for your continued help, everyone. Will get there eventually!
Please report back as I for one would like to know the problems with this one. Matt and Lee are great/very helpful so enjoy your time there.
The mmc (moving micro cross) is more like a moving magnet than a moving coil... although the input is much lower.
Yes please keep us updated. I will be very interested in your results.
Any updates after your LifestyleAV visit? Hope it went well.
Lee: Any updates after your LifestyleAV visit? Hope it went well.
Yes, please report back as we are eager to find out what was going on! Don't worry if it's something a bit silly you may have done - we all do that from time to time we just have a thirst for knowledge.
I just took it to them and Mat is going to have a look at it personally. Talked to the nice warehouse chap there and he said it's most likely a cartridge issue but they will contact me when they've properly diagnosed it.
Hi again BeoWorld,
Got a response from Mat today:
"
Apologies for the delayed reply - I’ve been out of the office.
Matt Russell LifeStyle AV Unit 3 | Brampton Business Park 55 Brampton Road Eastbourne | East Sussex BN22 9AF
Must be my setup... How odd!
So, no problems at all with the BG or cartridge. Now all you have to do is eliminate the other problem component. Are you sure it isn't the speakers?
Hi Dave,
I've tested it out with both the speakers and headphones and the issue persists.
Justin
I think the preamp is the only thing left really. That and switching out my el cheapo phono cables.
I've been looking on Sounds Heavenly and have found their own amplifier for BeoGram turntables. What do we think? Any feedback from people that have owned it in the past? http://soundsheavenly.com/beogram-record-players/12-pre-amp-kit-for-bo-beogram-and-all-turntables.html?search_query=phono&results=36
WhatsGoingOn: I've been looking on Sounds Heavenly and have found their own amplifier for BeoGram turntables. What do we think? Any feedback from people that have owned it in the past? http://soundsheavenly.com/beogram-record-players/12-pre-amp-kit-for-bo-beogram-and-all-turntables.html?search_query=phono&results=36
Everything that Steve makes for the B&O range is carefully designed, built or sourced based on his knowledge of the brand and normally are optimised to work with the systems quoted. Of course, he also offers a full 60 day refund and free shipping.
I'd be pretty surprised if it was the phono cables, but I could be wrong. Try the pre-amp and let us know.
Ben
at the sub £100 level, all these Far Eastern pre-amps are built to a price, so before you buy another preamp, it might be wiser to do some testing
did you say you had a Test Record like the Hi-Fi News Test LP (if not buy one or borrow, approx £25 quid on ebay) , and post back on here with your Frequency Response measurements
http://soaringcondorsound.com/1/post/2014/12/how-to-measure-the-frequency-response-of-your-system.html
you have a Macbook, so you can use the very nice iSpectrum software to see your FR in real time when playing the test tone on the Hi News Test LP
http://www.dogparksoftware.com/iSpectrum.html
once you have iSpectrum installed, just select “Pink Noise” for your slope. The results should look fairly flat (+-2db) , if not then I would suggest using another preamp and run iSpectrum again to see if the FR is the same as the 551P, if it is, and you are still getting sibilance from the alternative preamp then it could well be the capacitance of the DIN to RCA cable is too high, and you need a much lower pF per foot cable (ideally less than 20pF per foot)
do you know which type and make of cable was used to build your DIN to RCA cable ? and how long is the DIN cable ?
What I've realised is that it seems to be a distortion problem - I seem to have a "loudness" issue. When the dynamics of a track get loud I tend to start getting crackle which probably explains why my pop records suffer more than jazz.
My DIN to RCA cable is from Sounds Heavenly. It has a separate ground wire which I attach to the 551P. It is 1 metre in length.
those cables Steve makes are pretty good, so I doubt it is the cable either
you need to try a few other preamps, and see if this sibalnce / loudness / distortion issue is the same on other preamps
and please do try and find the time to do the iSpectrum FR test on all the preamps you get to audition and post back here your findings - thx
the 551P you have is a
on your most perfect records, especially simple recordings, the passive phono preamp can have the edge over active - no question !
but on "busy" and "very poppy" or "High Energy Rock" recordings with lots of high frequencies >12kHz the passive phono preamp shows it's distress, and your favourite records can often become harsh or distorted, if you can try an Active preamp from Graham Slee with your SMMC3 / Beogram 9500 combo you will immediately see what I mean :-)
There is also another quirk related to passive EQ networks. Have you ever witnessed the "sliding sound stage" with a passive phono preamp?
It's quite weird but female vocals in particular, can drift and often flick dramatically side to side in the sound stage. It's because large capacitor values are needed in passives, often in the order of 0.047 to 0.1 micro-farad for the bass EQ. At this size of caps it's difficult to obtain the really high voltage rating needed to have a relatively constant capacitance-frequency curve, so the EQ actually varies with pitch, and being passive there's no negative feedback to correct it. Your 551P will definitely suffer from this IMHO
This may help if you don't believe me (Graham Slee is one of the top UK preamp designers)
http://www.gspaudio.co.uk/all-about-the-phono-preamp.htm
Graham Slee also have a loaner program setup by volunteers, you join their forum and basically free of charge you can try out some of their Active Preamps on the page below
http://www.gspaudio.co.uk/phono-preamps-and-phono-stages.htm
my Dad has an ERA V which sounds fantastic with his Beogram 8002 and my SMMC2 cart (and his original MMC2 which now needs a retip really)
What will the iSpectrum test show? And how will this help me lead to a conclusion on the matter?
That is interesting to hear, thank you. I do notice it a lot more on pop records, particularly old Michael Jackson albums where the vocals are more upfront. When I listen to instrumental albums it sounds perfect. It seems as if the output is being overdriven, as if gain needs to be turned down.
Which amplifier should I try out, and what type? MM or MC? Just to correct you on your previous post - I have an MMC4, and a Gram 9000!
I hooked it up to the BeoCenter yesterday and although it barely functions the distortion sound I heard through the Cambridge Audio preamp is still there. Could this mean that it is in fact the DIN cable coming from the B&O?
1) What will the iSpectrum test show?
A. if you have the HiFi News test record, or any decent Test record, then you can use the iSpectrum software on your MAC, you will then see how well the 551P perfoms at the >12kHZ end of the HF
2) That is interesting to hear, thank you. I do notice it a lot more on pop records, particularly old Michael Jackson albums where the vocals are more upfront. When I listen to instrumental albums it sounds perfect. It seems as if the output is being overdriven, as if gain needs to be turned down.
A. for me it could be that the 551P being a passive phono pre cannot quite deliver, and the DIN to RCA cable is too long, it would be better if the DIN cable was as short as it possibly could be
the DIN standards that B&O closely followed in the seventies and eighties was to have the cartridges and tonearms measuring at 80pF, the interconnect cable at 20pF ( 30cm long ideally) and the pF value inside the Beocenter would have been around 220pF, add them all up and you get the 300pF value, which is the DIN or IEC standard.
you will see many references to using MMCx carts with capacitance pF at <400pF ( less than 400pF) for good reason, this was the desired range, but anything closer to 300pF gave you "Calibration Conditions", a value used for calibrating all their cartridges.
Calibration conditions: Load 47 kohms/220pF + 80pF (to the Beogram)
remember that B&O really only matched the Beogram 9000 to the Beocenter 9000 amp, so if you are going to substitute the Beocenter 9000 for a different phono stage ( preamp ) you need to match it up with something that closely follows the DIN standards ( European Standards)
3) Which amplifier should I try out, and what type? MM or MC? Just to correct you on your previous post - I have an MMC4, and a Gram 9000!
A. probably any good Active phono stage ( preamp ) , that is 47kohms and 220pF, my suggestion of trying out a few Graham Slee products on free valuation would be where I would be headed first
4) I hooked it up to the BeoCenter yesterday and although it barely functions the distortion sound I heard through the Cambridge Audio preamp is still there. Could this mean that it is in fact the DIN cable coming from the B&O?
I don' think it is the cable per se, but speak to Steve, maybe he can send you another to test !
Thanks for your in-depth replies and apologies for not being able to get back sooner.
The only preamp that meets the 47k, 220pf spec is this, which is described as "entry level" - http://www.gspaudio.co.uk/gram-amp-2-communicator-phono-stage-preamp.htm
What do you think?
definitely worth getting a demo, if you still get the sibilance/harshness/distortion, then it may be the cable I suppose
you did say that you had the BG9000 checked out last month and it was perfect ??
Yes, I did.