ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
I was thinking of upgrade the midrange/bas and tweeter to a new more high end driver for more upper midrange details in the sound.
Has anyone dune this, or can recommend drivers that can fit the speaker holes ?
I was thinking Scanspeak Neodyne speaker drivers, but haven't find any who fit the holes.
Best regards
Fredrik
Beolab: I was thinking of upgrade the midrange/bas and tweeter to a new more high end driver for more upper midrange details in the sound. Has anyone dune this, or can recommend drivers that can fit the speaker holes ? I was thinking Scanspeak Neodyne speaker drivers, but haven't find any who fit the holes. Best regards Fredrik
I'd like to see Geoff's reply to this! Even replacing a driver with the equivalent from B&O in many cases in Beolabs like this is not straightforward if my understanding of other similar threads is correct. They need to be balanced/calibrated etc, it's not just a simple case of swapping a driver over.
I stand to be corrected and wish you luck. I think my advice would be if you're not happy with the BL8000's, sell them and buy something that gives you what you want.
By all means do! And then convince yourself that the gross freq response aberrations and such actually sound better, as well as the mismatch in bass tuning. There's an old saying in the DIY speaker building crowd, somewhere out there is a recording that will make it sound good so this would also be a good excuse to go buy a bunch of new music in search of said recording!
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
By the way - what is there to do if the original tweeter is defective? Just swap it over with a new identical one or do you also ne to calibrate in this case?
Thanks!
Kai
Manbearpig: By the way - what is there to do if the original tweeter is defective? Just swap it over with a new identical one or do you also ne to calibrate in this case? Thanks! Kai
Hi Kai,
that was my point. My understanding is that any replacement should be calibrated. Maybe the OP can say as he works for B&O.
Dave.
I haven't taken a look at the 8000 service manual but there's a procedure to read the efficiency number in dB off the back of any driver you are swapping and instructions on how to use a meter and adjust the amplifier level in the BL6000 manual I have, so I'd assume it's the same. This is one thing that impresses about B&O speakers, most passive speakers have some fairly wide tolerances for drivers, after the speaker is completed it's placed on a test jig with a microphone, an impulse response test is performed, and if the response lies outside of some specified range it's pulled and corrected by changing crossover or drivers. Most speakers don't seem to have nearly as tight a tolerance as B&O has on such things.
Why do you think stuffing drivers in cabinets not designed for them, using crossovers not designed for them, will be an "upgrade?" And why do you think drivers matter that much? What do you think is wrong with the drivers B&O chose?
I'm not an expert but highly doubt your claims. B&O have always used pretty good drivers for their speakers - Scanspeak, Seas and the like. If you want to have an improvement in sound you should concentrate mass manufactured components like capacitors for example. I'm not sure whether the Beolab 8000 is the ideal candidate for modifications though.
Cheers
And you know that how? Marketing brochures? Advertisements? From people selling the same? I really don't think you have a clue about audio design, and believe me listening to what the ad folks say is a lousy way to gain any knowledge. Are you aware that almost all "rigid" drivers have significantly poorer performance than soft domes and traditional doped paper or plastic cones? They have internal self noise and severe near band breakup modes because no driver is ever rigid at all frequencies and drive levels, and when rigid drivers do breakup they don't have enough self damping to reduce the amplitude of the breakup modes and tend to ring. It takes significantly more effort to coax acceptable sound out of them, but they do have an obvious marketing cache.
But go ahead, let us know your results.
B&O are one of the best companies with respect to speaker engineering I've encountered, they have known about things that matter, like power response, and have designed for it since the 70s. If they truly felt other drivers were superior don't you think that, given the price of their speakers, they'd have gone that route long ago?
Hi Jeff,
thanks for your insightful comment that I can wholeheartedly follow. However, do you think that the same argument can be applied to the use of capacitors and other components of amplifiers and crossovers? Because from what I've heard, improvements are in fact possible when it comes to these electronic components since B&O as a mass manufacturer has used not so high quality stuff in this regard (and of course, components age). What do you think?
Greetings
I think there's a difference between better with respect to caps and such where that means more reliable, better measured specs, and such and between "exotic" devices that tend to get a following that in my opinion is far outside their actual performance differences, if any. This especially goes for the substitution of exotic devices into circuits designed with the specifications of more mundane components in mind. Particularly in speaker crossovers, a lot of people substitute high end film caps that don't have as much insertion loss, which tilts the frequency response by raising the output level of the drivers, usually tweeters. This will be described as "improvements in detail and air" and such, and after a while people will sometimes get tired of the new voicing of the speaker, and instead of saying I made it too bright, will say it's no suddenly revealing of all the deficiencies in my system. So they will go out and buy some overpriced wire that acts like a low pass filter, or turning down the treble, and claim that cable is superior. Yes, over the years I've gotten a tad cynical about such things.
In a lot of older B&O the component choice was determined by what would fit into the cabinet, in addition to cost, and that led to some unfortunate choices, particularly as far as longevity is concerned. That said, in many cases small ceramic disk caps reek. I am far more familiar with speakers than electronics as far as design goes, having done the former and not really the latter. So, I guess the answer is it depends. I'd make substitutions of higher quality, more reliable devices before jumping on the exotic bandwagon, but in some cases such exchanges obviously can work. I know of a guy who does quite nice restorations of old HK gear and he upgrades the caps and resistors in critical paths to more reliable, modern ones with good sonic results. He isn't a big fan of truly exotic circuit redesign or swapping though.
It's a subject that can stimulate a lot of controversy in audio circles though, gives everyone something to argue about!
Beolab: Has anyone dune this, or can recommend drivers that can fit the speaker holes ? I was thinking Scanspeak Neodyne speaker drivers, but haven't find any who fit the holes.
The speakers holes will be the least of your problems.Since you work for B&O, I assume you must have access to the drivers T/S parameters. If not, you can probably have them measured.Keep in mind that the cabinet, filtering, damping, reflecs etc. have all been taken into account when designing the speakers.If a driver with even a slightly different T/S would have suited the speaker any better, it would have been made and fitted.Any change in T/S away from the original will worsen the speakers performance.
1 ohm was 1 ohm 30 years ago and it is still 1 ohm today.The same goes for the T/S parameters.
Martin
I am sure it will sound 'different'
Are you planning to use another amplifier for your mod then?
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Dillen:1 ohm was 1 ohm 30 years ago and it is still 1 ohm today.The same goes for the T/S parameters.
Ban boring signatures!
As you have access to B&O engineering facilities to calibrate your new drivers etc. why not ask the B&O design engineers what drivers they would recommend, surely they are best placed to answer your questions factually??
There are days when I fret for the future of the human race...
Puncher: Dillen:1 ohm was 1 ohm 30 years ago and it is still 1 ohm today.The same goes for the T/S parameters.
Don't you know, T/S are irrelevant, what matters is if the drivers are "high end" and go to 40khz!
I've seen lots of (mainly) young people believing they can easily improve the world, merely byreplacing ancient (read: ten year old) stuff with the latest off-the-shelve craze (sigh).But, by all means, go ahead. It's your speakers, experiment and let us know.I'm sure, you can make the speakers sound somewhat different.
But if you seriously want to improve the speakers, I suggest you start with the parts that wasthe reason for the necessary compromises, the engineers had to face.In case of the Beolab 8000, this will definitely be the cabinet.
Then, with a new cabinet, more suitable for high-end sound, go and find suitable drivers andcalculate filters etc.Then listen and measure.
The motto seems to be;
The higher the specs, the better the speakers
Jeff: Puncher: Dillen:1 ohm was 1 ohm 30 years ago and it is still 1 ohm today.The same goes for the T/S parameters. Don't you know, T/S are irrelevant, what matters is if the drivers are "high end" and go to 40khz!
Can someone explain to me why having a speaker that can go to 40khz is of any use (apart from annoying dogs and bats) if the normal Human range of hearing is only from 20hz up to 20khz?
You don't even annoy the dog or bats that way!
You won't get any sound above approx 22kHz through the tweeters anyway.
Not unless you....tweak the amp and the complete feeding audio chain before that - including the source material/the music.
It is all for the specs.
Millemissen: You don't even annoy the dog or bats that way! You won't get any sound above approx 22kHz through the tweeters anyway. Not unless you....tweak the amp and the complete feeding audio chain before that - including the source material/the music. It is all for the specs. MM
Exactly. So what is the point?
I'm surprised that someone who works for B&O feels that the BL8000 is so out of date and doesn't perform well enough that they think as a hobby DIY job they can do better. However, as they are his speakers he can do as he wishes and I wish him well. Maybe once they are finished, the results can be posted here.
Don’t think anyone here is trying to make fun of you. They are just not convinced, in contrast to you that the Beolab 8000 could benefit from new speakers. I'm also not convinced that in this case it would better, on the contrary worsen the speakers. But its your money and you spend it the way you like.
Jeff is highly experienced in audio, and I myself am not a rookie in upgrading. You would indeed more benifit in doing an upgrade of the caps and resistors in critical paths and leave the speakers in the cabinet. Don't forget, if you make a step forward next step could be two backwards.
Do you want some caps, resistors? I have tons in here. Mundorf's, Audyn's, Intertechnik's, Vishay's... I spend way to much money on those things for what it really yields.
"Believe nothing you read and only half of what you see, let your ears tell you the truth."
Beolab:Hahaha! Jeff and the rest of you who try to make fun of me here: you don't know any thing about my knowledge for engineering do you?
Jeff and the rest of you who try to make fun of me here: you don't know any thing about my knowledge for engineering do you?
Why do you think, someone tries to make fun of you?
And do you know anything about our knowledge for engineering, then?I know enough about speaker design and calculations to know, that to improve a speaker likethe Beolab 8000, the weakest points must definitely be addressed and if B&O had theopportunity to do it, they would have and an increased driver cost of a few pounds perproduced unit would not be a problem, the selling price, large-scale ordering of parts andthe overhead taken into consideration.I also know enough to know that if you are looking to replace a specific driver with"something else", that should "work better", the physical dimensions and it's physicalmounting (the "hole" - to use your own terminology) is something that will have to beconsidered far later than the choice of T/S parameters and cost.But - as said - cabinet design limitations rule here.
I have worked intensely on B&O audio units for more than 40 years, how many years of experience do you have ?Martin
Beolab 50, Beolab 8000 x 2, Beolab 4000 x 2, BeoSound Core, BeoSound 9000, BeoSound Century, BeoLit 15, BeoPlay A1, BeoPlay P2, BeoPlay H9 3rd Gen, BeoPlay H6, EarSet 3i, BeoVision Eclipse Gen 2 55", BeoPlay V1-40, BeoCom 6000 and so much else :)
I haven't done any mod work on the speaker drivers in thisparticular model but I have on several others - always ending with thesame result; What was in there originally, was the best.Keep in mind, that lots of drivers were custom produced to B&O because somereally odd specs were required.
Sometimes an improvement can be achieved by replacing capacitors to other types butit is my experience that the major part of the improvement comes from simply replacing tiredcapacitors with fresh ones, rather then replacing standard capacitors with ones of a moreshiny and expensive type.Expected lifespan will typically be longer for foil caps than for electrolytics though, whichmay be cause enough for some owners to choose them over standard components butI never saw replacement speaker drivers do any better than the originals in any B&O.
Beolab:Yes i may have started this thread from the opposite direction. My question was simple, if someone have dun any similar before
My question was simple, if someone have dun any similar before
A conclusion might be, that noone has done this so far.
We wish BeoLab good luck with his project of making a new speaker using the aluminium part of a BL8000......
....and we are looking forward to hear of the results here.
Period!
Millemissen: Beolab:Yes i may have started this thread from the opposite direction. My question was simple, if someone have dun any similar before A conclusion might be, that noone has done this so far. We wish BeoLab good luck with his project of making a new speaker using the aluminium part of a BL8000...... ....and we are looking forward to hear of the results here. Period! MM
I agree, good luck, and interesting to see the project. Even tough I think the biggest issue with sound is that our ears fade as we grow older.This thread made me want to try again too fix the bad pair of BL8000 I have, they start to sound strange after a few hours. New capacitors will be my first shot at fixing it.
Maybe you get strange after a few hours...
The OP will probably like them no matter how they turn out, parents don't usually notice if their baby is ugly. I've seen this in the DIY speaker crowd more times than I can count...some guy mates a 15 inch woofer with a piezo tweeter, just horrendous sounding. The creator was certain that it sounded great if you just played it LOUD ENOUGH!!!
Jeff:Maybe you get strange after a few hours... The OP will probably like them no matter how they turn out, parents don't usually notice if their baby is ugly. I've seen this in the DIY speaker crowd more times than I can count...some guy mates a 15 inch woofer with a piezo tweeter, just horrendous sounding. The creator was certain that it sounded great if you just played it LOUD ENOUGH!!! Jeff Beovirus victim, it's gotten to be too much to list!
Michael: Sounds like when I'm cooking food. Everything tastes great then .
Sounds like when I'm cooking food. Everything tastes great then .
Especially delivery pizza?