ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Chris: Will it be upgrading the Beolab 5 with new drivers?
Will it be upgrading the Beolab 5 with new drivers?
Exactly
Raeuber: Paul W: Iy's not a rumour Raeuber. It's definitely happening! Crazy totally crazy in fact truly mental but true! I'm sure a new investor will pull the plug on it though! Ok, then it's not a rumour but a joke. Like "Kia will produce an aeroplane"!
Paul W: Iy's not a rumour Raeuber. It's definitely happening! Crazy totally crazy in fact truly mental but true! I'm sure a new investor will pull the plug on it though!
Iy's not a rumour Raeuber. It's definitely happening! Crazy totally crazy in fact truly mental but true! I'm sure a new investor will pull the plug on it though!
Ok, then it's not a rumour but a joke. Like "Kia will produce an aeroplane"!
Kia Motors has a production output of 2 million vehicles per year - I am sure they could produce an aeroplane, if the wanted to.
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Raeuber: PhilLondon: The moment has a digital output and can read uncompressed files from your NAS. A simple software update and the can add an Uncompressed streaming service. There is no coaxial or optical digital sound output, Powerlink is an analogue output. Waiting for a software update can take years.
PhilLondon: The moment has a digital output and can read uncompressed files from your NAS. A simple software update and the can add an Uncompressed streaming service.
The moment has a digital output and can read uncompressed files from your NAS.
A simple software update and the can add an Uncompressed streaming service.
There is no coaxial or optical digital sound output, Powerlink is an analogue output.
Waiting for a software update can take years.
@Räuber
1: Why (the heck) should the Moment have a 'coaxial or optical output'?
There is a PL-output with an analog line-level signal for ALL BeoLab's - do you question the quality of the DAC solution of the BS Moment?
The digital output is the WiSA connection for all new BeoLab's.
And don't forget the direct (digital) connection to a modern BV via NL (wired or wireless).
2: Why so negative?
I don't think, that B&O can dictate Deezer anything - they can negotiate....
Be sure that Sonos has 'bought' Deezer Elite, and have exclusive rights for a while.
I am sure, that B&O will provide a 'lossless music service', when possible.......for those who want it.
Millemissen:@Räuber 1: Why (the heck) should the Moment have a 'coaxial or optical output'? There is a PL-output with an analog line-level signal for ALL BeoLab's - do you question the quality of the DAC solution of the BS Moment? The digital output is the WiSA connection for all new BeoLab's. And don't forget the direct (digital) connection to a modern BV via NL (wired or wireless).
You know Raeuber, it's possible that these won't be marketed as hifi speakers but instead placed as home cinema speakers for use with the largest screen Avant! Then it's going to be Blu Ray & Apple TV as the sources. It's possible that they are aiming these at footballers, celebs, drug barons etc because let's be honest, who else would spend 40K on a pair of speakers in 2015???
Millemissen:1: Why (the heck) should the Moment have a 'coaxial or optical output'?
Why are you always asking the same questions when they already have been answered? If you do not understand it, you should not generalize your lack of understanding. Or might it be even ignorance?
Yes, as digital speakers do not need analogue signals. Would you also prefer analogue video signals over digital ones only because B&O was favoring them for backwards compatibility reasons or whatsoever? This is quite a useless point of view.
Yes, why not introduce another exotic wireless protocol when supporting a well established wired industrywide standard would perfectly well do? Of course because B&O dominates the market! And because replacing a BeoLab 5 with something more recent and wireless is so much fun! Really Millemissen, I never read such an ignorant collection of non-arguments. Your always beo-ptimistic points of view will not save B&O from going under or helping them to sell more, it will be good ideas or intelligent integration with the digital hub. And I really hoped they would be able to do so, but illusions are always dying last.
Using a television set as an audio hub again is one of the weirdest solutions imaginable. Why not using the car stereo or a mobile phone? And no, I’m not serious.
Why being positive if there’s no reason? We’re all customers and not a B&O charity group. If you love to replace your BeoLab 5 with a wireless model for being able to use the weirdly integrated and designed Moment, then go ahead! Let's wait if others follow …
Paul W:You know Raeuber, it's possible that these won't be marketed as hifi speakers but instead placed as home cinema speakers for use with the largest screen Avant! Then it's going to be Blu Ray & Apple TV as the sources. It's possible that they are aiming these at footballers, celebs, drug barons etc because let's be honest, who else would spend 40K on a pair of speakers in 2015???
Hey David why do you think that "Using a television set as an audio hub again is one of the weirdest solutions imaginable"? Don't forget the youngsters of today are used to their entire life being on laptops, iPads and iPhones. 12 years whilst I was at university the kids were using their desktops for playing music. Apple TV displays beautiful cover art of your music on your TV. My MacBook is my iTunes digital hub but look at my 20 minutes of music listening this afternoon before my gym training - I had France's NRJ Funky 80s radio station playing on my iPhone whilst showering, then I went downstairs and Airplay that to my TV, sat down with an espresso, opened my Facebook app and Airplay a HD surfing video onto the big screen before running upstairs again with NRJ then air playing to my B&O A8 in my weights room! The music then followed with me as I ran a 20minute journey to the gym!
And that's how I typically along with many other people live my life with music all around me :) And, I love it!!!
To Paul w, I know numerous people including myself who have £50k linn setups,because music is their passion and me included, so they see it as an investment in years of enjoyment.
People who enjoy cars spend double that.I have many customers from the lakes who are not drug barons etc retired business owners with £50k systems £80-100k cars and expensive houses,they still enjoy the outdoor lifestyle but life and luxuries aswell.
I think he said it would be weird with Beolabs 5 or "future" 40K-priced speakers.
Certainly appropriate with Beoplay A8.
David Andel:Why are you always asking the same questions when they already have been answered? If you do not understand it, you should not generalize your lack of understanding. Or might it be even ignorance? Yes, as digital speakers do not need analogue signals. Would you also prefer analogue video signals over digital ones only because B&O was favoring them for backwards compatibility reasons or whatsoever? This is quite a useless point of view. Yes, why not introduce another exotic wireless protocol when supporting a well established wired industrywide standard would perfectly well do? Of course because B&O dominates the market! And because replacing a BeoLab 5 with something more recent and wireless is so much fun! Really Millemissen, I never read such an ignorant collection of non-arguments. Your always beo-ptimistic points of view will not save B&O from going under or helping them to sell more, it will be good ideas or intelligent integration with the digital hub. And I really hoped they would be able to do so, but illusions are always dying last. Using a television set as an audio hub again is one of the weirdest solutions imaginable. Why not using the car stereo or a mobile phone? And no, I’m not serious. Why being positive if there’s no reason? We’re all customers and not a B&O charity group. If you love to replace your BeoLab 5 with a wireless model for being able to use the weirdly integrated and designed Moment, then go ahead! Let's wait if others follow …
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
In other words: you believe it is meaningful to spend 40K EUR for (hypothetical) new speakers amd drive audio reproduction from your built-in TV audio system?
Because, this is what this thread was about.
Millemissen:The digital output is the WiSA connection for all new BeoLab's.
Absolutely. The only problem is in fact for Beolab 5 owners. Other than that it can connect in analog to the old range of speakers, which are analog anyway, and in wireless digital to the new range of speakers.
Yes, it would have been good to have a digital output, but if you do not own Beolab 5, I do not think it's that relevant.
These digital connections where not really made to connect speakers anyway, you still needed the Powerlink cable to control the volume. WISA is a much better standard. It isn't available on many other brands because B&O had an exclusivity period, but that period is over and I have seen that some other music systems with WISA are going to be released. Which is a great opportunity for B&O as they'll be able to sell speakers that work with TVs of other brands.
Beoworld app with direct photo upload and emoticons.
@David Andel (see full post above)
All I can say, is that we disagree on these things.
AnalogPlanet: In other words: you believe it is meaningful to spend 40K EUR for (hypothetical) new speakers amd drive audio reproduction from your built-in TV audio system? Because, this is what this thread was about.
First of all - we don't know anything yet about these (new) speakers!
But basicly I am convinced, that the audio engine of the newer (BSys4-based) BV's is the perfect match for the new generation of the BeoLab speakers.
PhilLondon: Millemissen:The digital output is the WiSA connection for all new BeoLab's. Absolutely. The only problem is in fact for Beolab 5 owners. Other than that it can connect in analog to the old range of speakers, which are analog anyway, and in wireless digital to the new range of speakers. Yes, it would have been good to have a digital output, but if you do not own Beolab 5, I do not think it's that relevant. These digital connections where not really made to connect speakers anyway, you still needed the Powerlink cable to control the volume. WISA is a much better standard. It isn't available on many other brands because B&O had an exclusivity period, but that period is over and I have seen that some other music systems with WISA are going to be released. Which is a great opportunity for B&O as they'll be able to sell speakers that work with TVs of other brands.
The Beolab 18 & Beolab 20 both have TOSLINK inputs, why not the Moment have a TOSLINK output?
Ban boring signatures!
Puncher:The Beolab 18 & Beolab 20 both have TOSLINK inputs, why not the Moment have a TOSLINK output?
I agree that if it had TOSLINK it would be better, but you do not need TOSLINK to connect your moment to your BL18 or 20 digitally, because both have WISA.
TOSLINK is present on these speakers so you can use them with other brands TVs.
PhilLondon: Puncher:The Beolab 18 & Beolab 20 both have TOSLINK inputs, why not the Moment have a TOSLINK output? I agree that if it had TOSLINK it would be better, but you do not need TOSLINK to connect your moment to your BL18 or 20 digitally, because both have WISA. TOSLINK is present on these speakers so you can use them with other brands TVs.
By the same measure TOSLINK would allow the Moment to be used with third party systems. If it's half as good as some here would have you believe I'm sure there would be a market for a £1700 source although they may not be willing to paying a further £4500 for a pair of BL18's.
@Chris Townsend: wasn't this paradox the topic here? There's nothing to recommend to drive (supposed) new high-end speakers.
Btw, I like audio engines of B&O TVs - however here we discuss not just any speakers but the highest-end imaginable. I mean, seriously, how could a TV be the right audio engine for high fidelity audio?
@Millemissen: more important is, would a potential buyer of (again, supposed) new high-end speakers be convinced too that he should play his hires audio collection from a TV set?
I bet there are not going to be too many of them, cashing out 10K+ EUR for a speaker set to play it like that.
Puncher: By the same measure TOSLINK would allow the Moment to be used with third party systems. If it's half as good as some here would have you believe I'm sure there would be a market for a £1700 source although they may not be willing to paying a further £4500 for a pair of BL18's.
The BS Moment is designed to do the volumen controlling (either remotely via the remote or on the device itself).
Using a digital/toslink out connection to a third party system would involve a volumen control on the third party system.
IMO this would compromise the concept/the user interface of the Moment - leaving the volumen wheel unused.
I would rather think, that they did not think of the Moment as of a mediaplayer for 3rd party systems - it is a dedicated BeoSystem (with future NL-based multiroom capacities).
Controlling the volumen (when using a digital-out connection) at the source is a bad idea, since it would mean reducing the bitdepth of the audio content transferred via the Toslink connection.
That is/was the reason, why the BeoLab 5 has/had an special option setting allowing the volumen to be controlled in the audio engine of the speaker (with a Beo4). That allows for the BL5's to receive a not bitdepth reduced (fixed) digital input/signal from a 3rd party player/transport.
AnalogPlanet: @Millemissen: more important is, would a potential buyer of (again, supposed) new high-end speakers be convinced too that he should play his hires audio collection from a TV set? I bet there are not going to be too many of them, cashing out 10K+ EUR for a speaker set to play it like that.
I can't comment on that.
I know nothing (!) about the 'new speakers' - and I won't speculate on what or how they could be.
Only thing I know, is that a lot of BL5 and BL9 and BL20 owners have their speakers hooked up to their BV's.
These speakers aren't 'cheap' either.
Millemissen: Controlling the volumen (using a digital-out connection) at the source is a bad idea, since it would mean reducing the bitdepth of the audio content transferred via the Toslink connection. That is/was the reason, why the BeoLab 5 has/had an special option setting allowing the volumen to be controlled in the audio engine of the speaker (with a Beo4). That allows for the BL5's to receive a not bitdepth reduced (fixed) digital input/signal from a 3rd party player/transport.
Controlling the volumen (using a digital-out connection) at the source is a bad idea, since it would mean reducing the bitdepth of the audio content transferred via the Toslink connection.
This is not necessarily the case and would only apply in a poorly designed "hifi" system, if the volume is controlled in the internal floating point level before dithering for output then there is no "reduction of bitdepth".
Agree no one serious audiophile will do that.
Puncher: Millemissen: Controlling the volumen (using a digital-out connection) at the source is a bad idea, since it would mean reducing the bitdepth of the audio content transferred via the Toslink connection. That is/was the reason, why the BeoLab 5 has/had an special option setting allowing the volumen to be controlled in the audio engine of the speaker (with a Beo4). That allows for the BL5's to receive a not bitdepth reduced (fixed) digital input/signal from a 3rd party player/transport. This is not necessarily the case and would only apply in a poorly designed "hifi" system, if the volume is controlled in the internal floating point level before dithering for output then there is no "reduction of bitdepth".
I agree with your - now - changed comment. Even if I would rather say, that a 'reduction of bitdepth' would have no negative influence in that case.
That is how the volumen control in the BL5 works.
And I am sure, that the guys responsible at B&O would have done it the same way (even if it would cause higher costs), if they had had '3rd party users' in mind, as the concept of the BS Moment was made.
They did not - after all it is a media player for a B&O (audio) system.
I am pretty sure, that only very few buyers would think of using the Moment with a 3rd party system.
butch1:To Paul w, I know numerous people including myself who have £50k linn setups,because music is their passion and me included, so they see it as an investment in years of enjoyment. People who enjoy cars spend double that.I have many customers from the lakes who are not drug barons etc retired business owners with £50k systems £80-100k cars and expensive houses,they still enjoy the outdoor lifestyle but life and luxuries aswell.
BeoNut since '75
Millemissen:Even if I would rather say, that a 'reduction of bitdepth' would have no negative influence in that case.
A reduction in bit depth is a halving of the possible output amplitude for every bit lost and an reduction in the SNR, it would definitely have an influence, - even though you would rather say it, it is not correct!
Adding a digital output was trivial and should have been done, even though you are sure it's of no use to anyone.
I can't imagine a new high end speaker system with built in dsp and no wired, digital connection options. I am sure this speaker system will sound absolutely magnificent and appeal to high end audiophiles. But if you force this group of potential buyers to introduce a wisa transmitter between their high end source and the Beolabs you will surely fail in this segment.
But after all, I didn't imagine the Moment without wired digital out either, so I am probably wrong again. But that is the reason I now do my serious listening with a Raspberry Pi with wolfson audio card connected to BL5 through a 50 cm coaxial cable.
Having said this, I appreciate my "BV" hub that connects everything including the BL5s with powerlinks. For ordinary listening, TV watching etc. I am absolutely fine with audio quality comming out of Bsys4.
Please tell me more about the Pi + Wolfson Audio Card and how the quality differs from audio played through my Avant -> BL5 for example. Is it better quality because the avant doesn't have digital out? Thanks :)
Thanks! - Really great...:))
...what we are all dreaming of....
Stefan
9 LEE: Razlaw:I will believe it when I see it also. It's true. Lee
Razlaw:I will believe it when I see it also.
It's true.
Lee
I`m quite sure that Lee and Peter could tell us a bit more about this new Beolab, but I´m also quite sure that they have promised not to do so...
My BL5 are twelve years old now (first edition) and I feel they sound better than ever - the only problem is, I get used to them in daily life...
But I don`t need any other speakers in my main room ............ for now!
Paul W:Hey David why do you think that "Using a television set as an audio hub again is one of the weirdest solutions imaginable"?
Because I have to switch it on for listening to music or at least make my choice of what to listen too.
Don't forget the youngsters of today are used to their entire life being on laptops, iPads and iPhones.
I don’t.
12 years whilst I was at university the kids were using their desktops for playing music. Apple TV displays beautiful cover art of your music on your TV. My MacBook is my iTunes digital hub but look at my 20 minutes of music listening this afternoon before my gym training - I had France's NRJ Funky 80s radio station playing on my iPhone whilst showering, then I went downstairs and Airplay that to my TV, sat down with an espresso, opened my Facebook app and Airplay a HD surfing video onto the big screen before running upstairs again with NRJ then air playing to my B&O A8 in my weights room! The music then followed with me as I ran a 20minute journey to the gym! And that's how I typically along with many other people live my life with music all around me :) And, I love it!!!
I have no problem with your listening preferences. But the moment you’d generalize them and propose the result as the only option, I might have. Again, switching on a perhaps even giant TV set only for looking at album art is like using whatever BeoLab for playing the system sounds of your laptop. You could also take a taxi to visit your friend living right around the corner or take a plane for your grocery shopping. Well, I do love technology but I prefer to enslave it to my needs – not the other way around, even if Apple, B&O, Google or whatever company thinks it would be great like this.
Chris Townsend:My tv has a built in Beosystem 3 in it. Why would I want to purchase another av receiver for my speakers......which are attached to my tv?
That’s your perfect freedom of choice, I’d never criticize it.
My tv has a built in cd/dvd player, why would I want to buy another separate one ?
That depends entirely on your personal needs.
My tv has a very good Beolab 7-6 on it, why would I want another speaker when this one can do most things on its own?
I do not know as I’m not using your setup.
A near smart hub, and hey it's also a TV
Well, yes, it’s an option and if it's a good one for you – why the heck not? But in my case everything is just different, so I’d never want to use a solution like yours and we both have certainly enough reasons not to change our configuration. The problem I wanted to emphasize is that B&O is consequently diluting its very own technologies by e. g. offering a still revolutionary purely digital speaker but no solution to integrate its digital advantage in a beocentric environment without returning to the analogue path.
Millemissen: @David Andel (see full post above) All I can say, is that we disagree on these things.
We most certainly do. But should we stop to discuss then?
I'm too on the side "don't use a TV for music" as I simply think it's exaggerated just for source/track selection... There's nothing wrong with small status displays from e.g. preamplifiers or our beocenters that are showing the active source. ;)But, I can see a completely different problem for Bang & Olufsen:The prejudices about this company: Only design, no substance, high prices, just looks, bad soundquality etc. etc.It could happen that real audiophiles simply don't take Bang & Olufsen seriously in this area and even IF the speakers are simply superb - which I assume - there might be the wrong brand name on it.There are enough people who buy components from e.g. Accuphase and they won't even think about buying something from Bang & Olufsen. It is sad and here in Germany even the hifi magazines seem to stay away in some way from Bang & Olufsen components.So, let's simply hope that the new speakers will be a big hit for Bang & Olufsen and that Tue doesn't blow it up. :)It would be very sad to see the speakers having the same tragic fate as e.g. the Technics WSA-1 synthesizer from years ago. A fantastic machine with one serious problem: The wrong brand name was printed on the casing! If there would have been written Korg, Yamaha or Roland that machine would have sold like hot cakes.
I really pray for Bang & Olufsen. They need a big hit!
TWG: I'm too on the side "don't use a TV for music" as I simply think it's exaggerated just for source/track selection... There's nothing wrong with small status displays from e.g. preamplifiers or our beocenters that are showing the active source. ;)
I'm too on the side "don't use a TV for music" as I simply think it's exaggerated just for source/track selection... There's nothing wrong with small status displays from e.g. preamplifiers or our beocenters that are showing the active source. ;)
A la the beautiful and functional Dot LED displays of the old Avant and BV7, even though they may not have displayed all of the requisite source information from an audio source, they might have been able to do so with a SW update.
The whole idea of using a TV for music is conflated. The brains (receiver) just happens to be mated to a screen, which displays information. Overkill? Maybe. But when B&O is concerned one isn't simply using a TV for music, a TV screen just happens to be attached to one of the best sound processors on the market.
On another point, I totally agree, though, that the stigma of the name B&O is difficult to overcome. Even when review after review of the Beolab 5 sung their praises, B&O as a brand is still labeled as style over substance. Tue has a big job to overcome that stereotype. A few products in the BeoPlay line have had moderate success, for example: Beolit 12 and A9, and A8 to a certain degree have been met with reviews of "this is worth the price" (or similar comments). But their mainstream products are a different story altogether.
4K TVs, motorized stands and wooden touch panels get all the journalist attention, clickbait, but the meat of those products isn't communicated as strongly by B&O as it should be. (See, the video which explains why the Moment exists). That video should have been released prior to the launch. "B&O have recognized a problem, here is the issue we see today... now we have a solution, here is the solution and why you need it." Yes, I know speakers are a different animal, but if they came from a brand which was seen TODAY as the pioneers that they were seen as in the bygone days, reception may be different.
As we've all said in many many threads / posts in the recent past: B&O needs to connect with new customers. We are the convinced, but unfortunately, some of us are becoming less so.
/end rant.
New drivers! New speakers possibly will have 7400 W each!
Beovision Avant 55 / BV 11-40 / BV7-40 / Beovision Avant / Beosound 9000 / Beosound 5 Encore / Beosystem 4500 / Beosystem 6500 / Beocenter 9000 / Beolab 5000 / Beolab 18 / Beolab 19 / Beolab 11 / Beolab 17 / 3 sets of Beolab 4000 / Beovox Red Line 60.2