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This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Greetings Everyone
My system consists of a Beosystem 3 with Beolab 9s in the front, Beolab 3s in the rear and a Beolab 7-6 for the center channel. My primary music source is an Apple TV that streams from a Mac Mini. Most of that music is from my CD collection that I ripped to iTunes with Apple Lossless Compression a few years ago. Occasionally I will play a CD on my blu-ray player.
I have had this system up and running for approximately 6 months, and I have to say that I am not all that impressed with the sound quality. I think that it is pretty good in 5-channel mode for watching movies, but I prefer to listen to music in 2-channel mode, and this is where I am very disappointed. By playing with room placement I have been able to "tune" the high end and mid range response of the Beolab 9s, but the bass just doesn't seem to be there. I'm not getting any kind of crisp bass "thump" that I can feel. At first I thought that maybe the problem was the Apple TV music source, but I am experiencing the same thing when listening to CDs.
My B&O rep stopped by the house a few weeks ago and looked at my system settings. He basically told me that everything was setup properly and that if I want better bass then I would need to buy the BeoLab 2 subwoofer. This seems kind of crazy to me. It seems like I should be able to get good bass response from a set of $9k speakers.
Perhaps I am just accustomed to the overly bass-enhanced mass marketed speakers and stereo systems commonly sold today. I would really like to hear your experiences using a similar system with BeoLab 9s as your 2-channel stereo loudspeakers. Am I crazy not to like these speakers? Could something be wrong with my setup that the B&O rep missed?
Thanks everyone,
TMQ
Placement and room architecture has big impacts on sound quality. Have you thought about placing the speakers differently so they get the best acoustic position? Do you have any textiles or just plain walls and floors?
Also check the setting on the bl9, they can be set to corner/wall/free depending on placement, gowever you cant rely on this alone but have to place them well and adjust the rooms aucoustics accordingly. Google on the issue and Im sure you will be able to get better sound.
The BL2 do give more bass than BL9 but I dont think that would. Be necessary, it is just a few Hz difference but perhaps it gives a bit more power to the lower Hz because of the strong amp inside it.
And of course, look at your sound settings in your system once more afterwards :)
Beolab 50, Beolab 8000 x 2, Beolab 4000 x 2, BeoSound Core, BeoSound 9000, BeoSound Century, BeoLit 15, BeoPlay A1, BeoPlay P2, BeoPlay H9 3rd Gen, BeoPlay H6, EarSet 3i, BeoVision Eclipse Gen 2 55", BeoPlay V1-40, BeoCom 6000 and so much else :)
I's all about room acoustic as Michael wrote.
And unfortunately is a trade-off between style and sound, the better the looks the worse the sound.
So if you want a modern/stylish room the acoustics are usually plain bad.
And movies are most of the time mixed more "bass heavy" then music.
Could you please tell us more about the position of your new BeoLabs and surrounding walls, listening position and room size?
There are a few tricks that could help you coax out more bass, but we need more details from you first.
Beo4 'til I die!
Could something be wrong with the speakers moreover?
Given that I have a wide experience of people choosing to use Beolab 9 both with and without Beolab 2 subwoofers, it is a fair comment that the jury is out on whether a Beolab 2 enhances or in some way detracts from the quality of sound the 9's deliver. You could argue therefore that it seems strange that the bass response is in some way considered to be lacking. A set of $9k speakers should and will deliver more.
Personally I would work from a neutral base point, treble and bass set to medium and Loudness to OFF, speaker position switch set accordingly. Use that as the starting point - which speaker position switch are the speakers set to anyway?
I remember the advice I gave to one customer who was disappointed with the sound in his uber-stylish apartment with wooden flooring -I said 'buy a big rug' - he did and it worked for him, without more details though it is guesswork!
I was in a similar situation with my BeoLab1, which are very similar to the BL9s. I added a BeoLab2 and now I am very happy with my setup.
Hfat
Hi there bud I have bs3 lab 9 and lab 6000 as rears
When I first bought my lab 9's it took me months to get used to them, I also turned the treble pots down a little as it was affecting hearing. I have two noticed after a year or so that they are excellent for music but only when I am sitting on the sofa.
When I have friends over and we have the music up the speakers g orange light as they have to be worked harden when dancing as the sound stage is low on the floor.
I have just bought some lab 12's to fix this problem as the acoustic lense will be head height.
I hope to god they sound as good in my house as they did in the shop.
Eclipse 65V1-32Beosound M5Essence MK2BLI
Hey Everyone,
Wow, so many responses so fast! I will try to address the general questions about my setup in this reply.
I have drawn up a quick schematic of my room and attached it below. The dimensions are pretty accurate, but the schematic is not to scale (close, but not quite). The room is in my finished attic, hence the slanted ceiling (I am certain to hear about how bad this room geometry is). The floor is hard wood with no rug. Sofa and chair are plush.
System is currently setup in "neutral" conditions: treble and bass in the center, loudness turned off. I have checked the back of both speakers and they are both switched for corner placement.
Michael: Placement and room architecture has big impacts on sound quality. Have you thought about placing the speakers differently so they get the best acoustic position? Do you have any textiles or just plain walls and floors?
You are absolutely correct with respect to placement. My local B&O sales rep suggested that I play with the placement and I could not believe the difference. I had the BL9s shoved right into the corners, and the treble and high-mid ranges were extremely harsh. I have pulled them out now and am playing with placement. However, while placement definitely impacts the high and mid ranges, I have not experienced any noticeable changes in the bass response.
With respect to the room, the only textiles are the sofa, chair and a curtain on one side window. Floor is hardwood with no rugs.
Michael: Also check the setting on the bl9, they can be set to corner/wall/free depending on placement, gowever you cant rely on this alone but have to place them well and adjust the rooms aucoustics accordingly. Google on the issue and Im sure you will be able to get better sound.
They are definitely set on "corner". I will search google to see if I can find some good suggestions for room placement. I have read on this forum that these speakers should face directly forward, not toed in to face the listener. Can anyone confirm this?
Thanks, and cheers!
Hey Evan
I just posted a schematic of my room setup. Let me know if you need additional information.
Cheers,
Seanie_230: Hi there bud I have bs3 lab 9 and lab 6000 as rears When I first bought my lab 9's it took me months to get used to them, I also turned the treble pots down a little as it was affecting hearing. I have two noticed after a year or so that they are excellent for music but only when I am sitting on the sofa.
Hey Seanie
I read some of your posts in another thread about your trouble with the pot settings on your BL9s. How does one go about checking to see if the pot settings are correct?
Thanks!
Corner setting dampens bass output - try the others, doesn't matter if it is WALL or FREE just tailor it to your taste.
If you have a rug or duvet try laying it in front of your tv (if I understand your schematic correctly).
I would strongly advise leaving the pot settings for the moment assuming you bought the speakers new, too many variables at the mo!
Sorry just saw another point that you were seeking some guidance on. Personally I always tow Beolab 9 in slightly but again experimentation to suit your listening preferences is key.
While I agree with all the other potential issues, since you have a DVD player, why not do a side-by-side of a CD vs same tracks via the streaming system? That would easily eliminate any variables associated with the mini->network->ATV->System 3. You can do the same test with BL7-6 on Speaker 1 vs BL9s on Speaker 2.
Hi
I have the BL9's with a BL2, and I think the BL2 is great for movies, but it gives too much bass for music. We mainly use the BL9 with movies, thats why I can "live" with it.
I have also tried a lot different settings/placements, but ended up using the recommendations from B&O, which works fine. I reduced the treble level a bit though.
Why does this thread get me singing on Shania Twain?
Seanie_230: Hi there bud I have bs3 lab 9 and lab 6000 as rears When I first bought my lab 9's it took me months to get used to them, I also turned the treble pots down a little as it was affecting hearing. I have two noticed after a year or so that they are excellent for music but only when I am sitting on the sofa. When I have friends over and we have the music up the speakers g orange light as they have to be worked harden when dancing as the sound stage is low on the floor. I have just bought some lab 12's to fix this problem as the acoustic lense will be head height. I hope to god they sound as good in my house as they did in the shop.
Hi Seanie
Just a quick query re your adjusting the pots on the Lab 9's.
Do these pots have a click detent when you turn them (I assume with a bladed screwdriver or similar) so you can easily return to the original setting, or do they just freely turn? With click stop adjustments, it would be fairly easy to return to manufacturers specs if one was inclined to experiment.
i would in no way wish to criticise your decisions and methodology re tuning your kit to your room, but personally I'd worry that if I didn't like the change, unless I could get the settings on the pots back to EXACTLY as they came from the manufacturer, I might have real problems getting things back to the manufacturers default settings and thus stuff up the sound.
I'd imagine those default settings would be set by careful measurement/computer when manufactured, as with an active system, the drivers will all have to be individually level matched to give the optimum sound for which they have been designed.
I'd be then looking at room placement and tuning, rather than tweaking the sound balance of the speaker, if I wasn't happy with the sonic results, but that's just me....
It does worry me a little though, as I'm having thoughts of perhaps pre-owned Lab 9's amongst other things and would certainly not like to have to deal with something that may have been altered to suit a particular situation but be way out of whack re the manufacturers specs and settings as regards the individual balance between the drivers, set by those potentiometers.
Many thanks
Kind Regards
John...
MightyQuinn: Hey Evan I just posted a schematic of my room setup. Let me know if you need additional information. Cheers, TMQ
If your room is set up exactly the way you illustrate it you should have plenty of bass. You have the BeoLab 9s cornered and you also have a wall directly behind your seating position which should give you a good amount of reflection. While reflection is not great for precise sound reproduction, it can be great for adding quantity.
If you are looking for a quick fix and want to juice up the bass you could set your room/position switch to 'free'.
symmes: While I agree with all the other potential issues, since you have a DVD player, why not do a side-by-side of a CD vs same tracks via the streaming system? That would easily eliminate any variables associated with the mini->network->ATV->System 3. You can do the same test with BL7-6 on Speaker 1 vs BL9s on Speaker 2.
Great suggestion. I had to do some searching in my basement to find a few appropriate CDs. I chose Dark Side of the Moon from the Shine On box set, Moody Blues "Every Good Boy Deserves Favour" (one of those gold Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs remasters), and Roger Waters "Amused to Death". These were the original CDs that I ripped into iTunes several years ago, so the comparison should be pretty fair. I turned off tone controls (set them to neutral), turned off loudness and set to Speaker 2.
I listened to Dark Side of the Moon first. The difference between the CD and the streamed content was very noticeable. The CD was much more dynamic, where as the streamed content was "flat" by comparison. There is a saxophone in Great Gig in the Sky, and listening to the CD you could hear the subtle timber of the sax, but with the streaming content it just sounded like a sax playing. The high end seemed smoother, less rough and less fatiguing when listening to the CD compared to the streaming content.
Next I tried the Moody Blues. Unlike with the previous comparison, the differences between the CD and the streaming content were very subtle. Not sure how to even put it into words, but I have to admit that if I could have done the comparison blind, I would have a very hard time telling which one was the CD and which one was the streaming content.
Finally, I listened to Roger Waters. My impression was similar to what I heard on Dark Side of the Moon, but more subtle. Smoother highs from the CD, and the streaming content was flattened, less dynamic, but somehow more fatiguing.
So, that was definitely a worthwhile experiment. However, I still have an issue with lack of bass. I have not yet tried changing the speaker selection to "Wall" or "Free Standing", but I will play with that as well.
Michael: Why does this thread get me singing on Shania Twain?
Sorry, but I don't get the reference.
Re your comparisons between the ripped and original CDs, how are you getting the sound out of the iTunes to the rest of the system? If you're using the output of a PC sound card that's likely the difference you're hearing, not the result of the Apple Lossless codec. I run a USB DAC from my music server PC, USB to the DAC to the analog input of my Beosound 9000 and I don't hear any differences. With the original PC sound card, well, that was a different matter entirely!
Ah, I see you use an Apple TV. Not sure I'd trust those DACs as much as a stand alone one, Apple thinks the analog out of their producs are just find, whereas no one I know who is serious about audio agrees.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Jeff: Re your comparisons between the ripped and original CDs, how are you getting the sound out of the iTunes to the rest of the system? If you're using the output of a PC sound card that's likely the difference you're hearing, not the result of the Apple Lossless codec. I run a USB DAC from my music server PC, USB to the DAC to the analog input of my Beosound 9000 and I don't hear any differences. With the original PC sound card, well, that was a different matter entirely! Ah, I see you use an Apple TV. Not sure I'd trust those DACs as much as a stand alone one, Apple thinks the analog out of their producs are just find, whereas no one I know who is serious about audio agrees.
The music streams to the Apple TV from a Mac Mini where the library resides. The Apple TV then sends the signal to the Beosystem 3 via HDMI. I must admit that I don't really know where the DAC is happening.
beolion: Hi I have the BL9's with a BL2, and I think the BL2 is great for movies, but it gives too much bass for music. We mainly use the BL9 with movies, thats why I can "live" with it. I have also tried a lot different settings/placements, but ended up using the recommendations from B&O, which works fine. I reduced the treble level a bit though.
I have a quick question about adding a BL2 to my system (recall I have the Beosystem 3, BL9s and BL3s). If I add a BL2 to this system and listen to music in 2-channel mode, does the BL2 take the low frequency signal away from the BL9s, or simply add to it? Is this system easy to balance? Can you control the cross-over point of the BL2 to match the BL9s? Am I asking silly questions?
bsantini:Room chain = room gain
Forgive me, but I am not familiar with the term "room chain". Can you explain?
MightyQuinn: Jeff: Re your comparisons between the ripped and original CDs, how are you getting the sound out of the iTunes to the rest of the system? If you're using the output of a PC sound card that's likely the difference you're hearing, not the result of the Apple Lossless codec. I run a USB DAC from my music server PC, USB to the DAC to the analog input of my Beosound 9000 and I don't hear any differences. With the original PC sound card, well, that was a different matter entirely! Ah, I see you use an Apple TV. Not sure I'd trust those DACs as much as a stand alone one, Apple thinks the analog out of their producs are just find, whereas no one I know who is serious about audio agrees. The music streams to the Apple TV from a Mac Mini where the library resides. The Apple TV then sends the signal to the Beosystem 3 via HDMI. I must admit that I don't really know where the DAC is happening.
I have been operating on the assumption that since HDMI is digital the DAC being used has to be inside the BeoVision / BeoSystem ....
BeoNut since '75
MightyQuinn:I have a quick question about adding a BL2 to my system (recall I have the Beosystem 3, BL9s and BL3s). If I add a BL2 to this system and listen to music in 2-channel mode, does the BL2 take the low frequency signal away from the BL9s, or simply add to it? Is this system easy to balance? Can you control the cross-over point of the BL2 to match the BL9s? Am I asking silly questions?
You can not control individual paramters as cross-over point. You simply set the type of speakers you have and BS3 controls all paramteters automatically. The olny parameter apart from the settings on the speaker (position and level) that is controlable is the speaker level.
hfat
hfat: MightyQuinn:I have a quick question about adding a BL2 to my system (recall I have the Beosystem 3, BL9s and BL3s). If I add a BL2 to this system and listen to music in 2-channel mode, does the BL2 take the low frequency signal away from the BL9s, or simply add to it? Is this system easy to balance? Can you control the cross-over point of the BL2 to match the BL9s? Am I asking silly questions? You can not control individual paramters as cross-over point. You simply set the type of speakers you have and BS3 controls all paramteters automatically. The olny parameter apart from the settings on the speaker (position and level) that is controlable is the speaker level. hfat
Thanks hfat.
Do you know if the BS3 removes the low frequencies from the signal going to the BL9s when the BL2 is connected?
I don not know exactly if BS3 is removing low frequencies from the BL9s. But having read the this document, I think it's very likely it does.
I'll do some tests today evening with my BL1/BL2 setup.
In a BS3 the BL2 WILL take over the lower frequencies instead of the BL9, but I dont know where the crossover is.
I have asked my dealer to ask B&O if it could be possible to have a Speaker 2 setup, where the BL2 (Sub) was disabled as default (like in speaker 1 mode), but B&O did not want to do that. I really dont want to use the BL2 with my BL9's when listening to music, but for movies (i.e speaker 5) the BL2 give you the extra punch.
I also talked a little with Geoff about this with the V1, and he said (as I remeber) that in a setup with i.e. 4 BL9's connected to the V1, then BL9 will take control over the bass part instead of the BL2.
I wanted to thank you all for your very informative responses to this thread. A combination of careful speaker placement, adjustment of the speaker position switch (free vs. wall vs. corner) and tweaking the tone controls in the BS3 have made a huge difference in the sound quality of my BL9s in 2-channel mode.
I firmly believe that my perceived lack of bass was really more related to harsh, overly bright high end frequencies and my room dynamics. I was not hearing much bass was because I was adjusting the volume of the system based on the high end frequencies. Here are a few things that I learned that helped me get the sound quality where I wanted it. Perhaps this will be useful to others:
1.) In my room, moving the speakers out from the corner (I had originally had them pushed right against the corner walls) had a huge impact on the upper mid range and higher frequencies. These frequencies were somewhat harsh and fatiguing when the speakers were in the corners, but really smoothed out when they were pulled out from the walls.
2.) If I really want to sit down and listen to my favorite music, I need to actually pull out my CDs and listen to them through a dedicated player rather than the ripped versions that I have in my iTunes library. Most of the difference was heard in the higher frequencies. Despite the fact that I used the Apple Lossless compression when I ripped the CDs, the music is consistently of lower quality when I do an A-B comparison to the original CDs for most (but strangely not all) of the albums I tested. I don't know yet whether or not this is the Apple Lossless compression or something else. I plan to repeat the test with some of the CDs that I heard the biggest difference on by re-ripping them without compression.
3.) Setting the speaker position switch to "Free" helped to balance out the sound. I think that my room likely makes the sound fairly bright because I have no carpeting or rugs on the hardwood floor. The slanted ceiling (see my schematic of the room in an earlier post) must also play a role.
Now I can finally be impressed!
Thanks again everyone. This forum is an amazing resource.