ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
I have a Land Rover dealership in the group, 3-12 month wait on some models and no discount, you could say the brand and car sells itself.People can design and spend months doing it, but the shop floor and general public decides in the end what is successful or not.
You are a puppet to the manufacturer as they pull the strings,and when there's problems you get the blunt of it,being front of house for the brand, not the people hiding behind the desk etc.
Something can look good but it's only one part of the jigsaw, also times have changed,loyalty lost, people will travel 100 miles for a free set of mats etc.
We have 2 modern Landrover dealerships which have to be replaced at millions investment as jag and Landrover have to be combined under the same roof now, we are lucky because we have a jag dealership already, but others in cities will lose out to each other.
When you invest a lot of money into a brand to keep them happy, sales and targets are key.
Our bmw dealerships are no different, loads of models released, targets through the roof, and new dealerships to be built, more a volume brand now and residuals prove it.
Profits with Landrover are 4 times that on average to bmw, so it shows you brand values,desirability count and price has nothing to do with it, how times have changed for jlr, I wish B&o were the same.
butch1: I have a Land Rover dealership in the group, 3-12 month wait on some models and no discount, you could say the brand and car sells itself.People can design and spend months doing it, but the shop floor and general public decides in the end what is successful or not. You are a puppet to the manufacturer as they pull the strings. When you invest a lot of money into a brand to keep them happy, sales and targets are key. Our bmw dealerships are no different, loads of models released, targets through the roof, and new dealerships to be built, more a volume brand now and residuals prove it. Profits with Landrover are 4 times that on average to bmw, so it shows you brand values,desirability count and price has nothing to do with it, how times have changed for jlr, I wish B&o were the same.
You are a puppet to the manufacturer as they pull the strings.
You may feel that you are spending a lot on your point-of-sale brand identity etc but the manufacturer spends the same as a showroom on a bumper mould and it's them who add value to the plastic that comes out of it . The amount of material in an Evoque is no greater than a Freelander but it's Design gives it a better mark-up and once the customer goes on the configurator it gets better. That's down to years of work by Gerry and his design team campaigning and doing design proposals. This is more than making it "look good"?
The customer has already decided from seeing cars on the road and looking at the configurator what they want nowadays and the sales process is an obstacle of having to deal with people who've had nothing to do with the creation of the product who you then have to negotiate a price. I've just been through this in buying a new Kuga for my wife and the emphasis is more with Gap insurance and paint protector add-ons. The equivalent process with B&O and the TV installation etc was much more pleasurable .
Beo Century ,Beoplay V1, Beocenter 6, Ex-Beolit 12, Beotime , A8. Beolit 15 , Form 2i , Beolab 2000, Beoplay A3.Beosound 1
N
You're right about the show rooming issue. The brand financing the display and getting the sale somewhere else and still benefitting . With B&O ,as with a kitchen or bathroom purchase , the installation is as important as the product . People don't want to pay for this in some cases but ,with the exception of the V1 , the product is "plug and Play". The ideal customer is obviously the home integration buyer who doesn't want a totally itemised bill. Would the volumes be adequate considering wireless reduces the amount of chasing of cables etc?
its almost as if the strength of the branding is a victim of its own success with the customer assuming they are dealing directly with the brand? I think the validation process of the customer based on monthly targets as in the car market would be a mistake as it's more a relationship selling thing with us more humble B&O buyers ; a V1 and a Beolit will lead to an essence installation with me. We are planning our house remodel at the moment . But not a moment as my dealer has said to wait for it to develop!
Richard: I think this discussion started as an analysis as to why another B&O dealer has gone bust. It's obvious. Cash flow and margin, together with falling unit prices for B&O products.Customers, or people who'd like to be customers, can bang on about the experience they want from a B&O showroom but who is funding this experience? A private individual who has mortgaged themselves to the hilt and whose only hope of getting a return is by making sales. Given that the sales have to be managed by a small number of staff, as that's all the franchisee can fund, then these have to be a low volume of high value sales for the business to work.I've been buying high-end audio for over 35 years and have seen that market change to where outside B&O, the big retail players are by appointment businesses you'll never have heard of. Meridian's biggest dealer is Meridian Oxford, an appointment only business park outfit that provides six-figure cinemas to the Chipping Norton set. The biggest Linn dealer in the south is UHES - again, no shop, appointment only and in the north House of Linn - a townhouse with the door shut that you have to know is there.These businesses thrive by providing a bespoke experience to people who will buy, rather than tyre kickers who come into hifi shops, bleed some poor shopkeepers investment on hours of demonstrations and then leave and go on eBay.This is Apple's fault. "Showrooming" - looking in-store and buying online, Apple stores are company owned and are physical advertisements - they will get the sale from somewhere, anywhere and don't care if they get that sale from John Lewis or online. Hi-Fi shops, usually turning over under £500K, privately owned and with rent, rates and 3 or 4 staff to pay absolutely need the cash coming in through their till. The Linn and Meridian outlets I've identified make it clear that it is not about location, it's about reputation, expertise and providing a level of attention that a "shop", focussed on "passing trade" could ever provide. The future of mainstream AV is online. The future of high-end is by private consultation and B&O needs to decide where it sits. An Avant or BeoLab 5 is undeniably high-end and not in-store purchases and these are the sales privately owned dealers need to keep the lights on. A high-footfall location can therefore be a hinderance. Events, service, not "deals" or a high-profile retail site (that will be used just like an Apple store is) is the only way the privately owned stores can work. The company stores can have a different focus.
I think this discussion started as an analysis as to why another B&O dealer has gone bust. It's obvious. Cash flow and margin, together with falling unit prices for B&O products.Customers, or people who'd like to be customers, can bang on about the experience they want from a B&O showroom but who is funding this experience? A private individual who has mortgaged themselves to the hilt and whose only hope of getting a return is by making sales. Given that the sales have to be managed by a small number of staff, as that's all the franchisee can fund, then these have to be a low volume of high value sales for the business to work.I've been buying high-end audio for over 35 years and have seen that market change to where outside B&O, the big retail players are by appointment businesses you'll never have heard of. Meridian's biggest dealer is Meridian Oxford, an appointment only business park outfit that provides six-figure cinemas to the Chipping Norton set. The biggest Linn dealer in the south is UHES - again, no shop, appointment only and in the north House of Linn - a townhouse with the door shut that you have to know is there.These businesses thrive by providing a bespoke experience to people who will buy, rather than tyre kickers who come into hifi shops, bleed some poor shopkeepers investment on hours of demonstrations and then leave and go on eBay.This is Apple's fault. "Showrooming" - looking in-store and buying online, Apple stores are company owned and are physical advertisements - they will get the sale from somewhere, anywhere and don't care if they get that sale from John Lewis or online. Hi-Fi shops, usually turning over under £500K, privately owned and with rent, rates and 3 or 4 staff to pay absolutely need the cash coming in through their till. The Linn and Meridian outlets I've identified make it clear that it is not about location, it's about reputation, expertise and providing a level of attention that a "shop", focussed on "passing trade" could ever provide. The future of mainstream AV is online. The future of high-end is by private consultation and B&O needs to decide where it sits. An Avant or BeoLab 5 is undeniably high-end and not in-store purchases and these are the sales privately owned dealers need to keep the lights on. A high-footfall location can therefore be a hinderance. Events, service, not "deals" or a high-profile retail site (that will be used just like an Apple store is) is the only way the privately owned stores can work. The company stores can have a different focus.
You make a lot of valid points. Back in the day when I was in the biz, the worst thing in the world were the audiophool time wasters. You could tell them because they usually had a dog eared copy of the latest Absolute Sound or Stereophile stuffed in their back pocket, could whine on for hours and hours, wanted to listen to everything, in every combination, then never bought anything, or bought from another dealer.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
By saying a freelander has the same amount of materials as an evoque is true with any brand, the evoque has better interior, drives better and I will admit it designed nice.
Buying a ford kuga is a different experience than buying a Range Rover, we drive to customers houses, businesses at any time to suit them, up to sometimes 200 miles away, spending hrs deciding spec for build dates, this builds relationships, also jlr customers are demanding with hectic lifestyles who want and deserve the best, so you have to go that the extra mile for their business and future business.
Buying a kuga is like buying a off the peg suit it is a different process and buying experience.even though you are still spending your hard earned money, it's just that it's the norm and mainstream.
When it comes to big ticket items the service is normally and should be top notch and that applies to any industry,cars, jewellery, furniture,hotels etc.
Every big designer brings out an affordable range or model, fashion names do it all the time, Versace at h&m is like play to B&o.
interesting reply,
I agree the Range Rover buyer is more like the bespoke B&O customer but friends who were buying a new Discovery at the same time as us ordering my wife's Kuga had a very similar purchase experience. The Evoque and the Range Rover are designed to optimise the personalisation experience and reduce haggling whilst optimising incremental earnings on parts that cost very little more to make for upgrades. We had problems ordering a factory-build Audi a few years back so prefer to get a car that's in the pipeline. (There are other things to occupy our time.) Our friends Discovery was in stock and the deposit allowance made it cheaper than used. No waiting list there...
i imagine the B&O equivalent to the RR is the wooden fret to be selected and the stands customise the installation but the potential for a configurator could expand i
Simonbeo:i imagine the B&O equivalent to the RR is the wooden fret to be selected and the stands customise the installation but the potential for a configurator could expand i
Astute comment, as the stand for the Avant 55" can be thought of as 25% the cost of the TV alone. I've always thought of B&O as being unique in the "options" available to the user. Brackets, stands, etc. And in Europe, even more options with internal hard disks, etc.
Jeff:You make a lot of valid points. Back in the day when I was in the biz, the worst thing in the world were the audiophool time wasters. You could tell them because they usually had a dog eared copy of the latest Absolute Sound or Stereophile stuffed in their back pocket, could whine on for hours and hours, wanted to listen to everything, in every combination, then never bought anything, or bought from another dealer. I think Play has been a disaster from the dealer perspective. There were too many products that had quality issues*, and B&O forces them to dedicate display space and inventory to something that's for sale everywhere**. From B&Os perspective, if they get the sale they're happy, but the dealers as you say spend time servicing tire kickers and have to maintain money tied up in stock. If the store is B&O owned, like an Apple temple, that's not as bad as it is for a franchise dealer. * I know one dealer who sold 4 V1-32s that got all of them back defective. ** I have two Play products, a pair of H6s and a Beolit 15, both bought at my nearest dealer (if you can call an hour and a half drive near). I went there to listen to them, and wasted his time, so I bought them there. Jeff Beovirus victim, it's gotten to be too much to list!
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
Chris Townsend: The Beoplay wooden display stand costs dealers over £3,000! How on earth can that ever make a return when new A9's are on EBay for £1,100!, and H6's can be had for £165
The Beoplay wooden display stand costs dealers over £3,000!
How on earth can that ever make a return when new A9's are on EBay for £1,100!, and H6's can be had for £165
Holy carp! Where's the emoticon for fainting over dead with shock?
Not to mention that you can find apparently real A2s from China without boxes or documentation for dirt cheap.
Jeff:Holy carp! Where's the emoticon for fainting over dead with shock? 👻🌚💀 Not to mention that you can find apparently real A2s from China without boxes or documentation for dirt cheap. Jeff Beovirus victim, it's gotten to be too much to list!
BeoNut since '75
we tend to forget there is more to design than designing.
How on earth can that ever make a return
Can't POS stuff be written off as capital depreciation or something like that?
£3000 is nothing compared to what the BMW dealers bill is for their showroom!
The Bath franchise is now for sale at £400K. Presumably the building (or rent) is an additional overhead.
http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/news/bath-news/grade-ii-listed-bang--713544
Graham
I'd rather put £400k on Elvis being found alive and well..
It's a beautiful little showroom, with panoramic views - but parking is impossible, and I've been told on a few occasions that a large percentage of the wealthy Bath clientele have grown bored of B&O and no longer see value in it. I hope that's not the case.
Lee
9 LEE: I'd rather put £400k on Elvis being found alive and well.. It's a beautiful little showroom, with panoramic views - but parking is impossible, and I've been told on a few occasions that a large percentage of the wealthy Bath clientele have grown bored of B&O and no longer see value in it. I hope that's not the case. Lee
Well Lee, I woke up last Tuesday at 3 am with a sudden, overwhelming desire for a banana slurpee, so headed down to the 24 hour quickie mart and gas station for a fix. Noticed this gorgeous 59 Cadillac next to the gas pumps, and inside what did I find but Elvis and Howard Hughes arguing over who's turn it was to pay for the gas. I was shocked, and when I went out again I noticed David Koresh was in the back seat of the Caddy. You owe me 400k, but you'll have to take my word for it, even though I took a picture on my cell phone, the aliens must have erased it when they abducted me on my way home.
vikinger: The Bath franchise is now for sale at £400K. Presumably the building (or rent) is an additional overhead. http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/news/bath-news/grade-ii-listed-bang--713544 Graham
I did say I’ve never seen anyone in the store. Incredible. 3rd time the Bath store has closed, if it closes.
Also, if the turnover is £730K and they make 20-25% per sale, taking in to account rent, wages and other overheads, the yearly profit can’t be much higher than around £50-75K?
So £400K could require many years of trading before you see a profit!
moxxey:Also, if the turnover is £730K and they make 20-25% per sale, taking in to account rent, wages and other overheads, the yearly profit can’t be much higher than around £50-75K? So £400K could require many years of trading before you see a profit!
StUrrock: moxxey: Also, if the turnover is £730K and they make 20-25% per sale, taking in to account rent, wages and other overheads, the yearly profit can’t be much higher than around £50-75K? So £400K could require many years of trading before you see a profit! If they sell at all, I will eat my hat....
moxxey: Also, if the turnover is £730K and they make 20-25% per sale, taking in to account rent, wages and other overheads, the yearly profit can’t be much higher than around £50-75K? So £400K could require many years of trading before you see a profit!
If they sell at all, I will eat my hat....
I'm assuming that it's cheaper to start a brand new store than buy an existing one (a building you don't own, either) for £400K. Anyone who does their due diligence will quickly realise the figures don't add up. Ok, I'm assuming you get a fair amount of display stock within that price, but even so...
When B&O Eastbourne recently closed, nobody noticed.
I was told my a former employee that the turnover for one month early this year was... £500.
Turnover. 😐
I might be wrong but I always thought that the Bath store was ran by the same people who run the Cardiff store which I noticed last week has moved from the really nice shopping arcade in Cardiff to a not quite as nice an arcade. They were closed at the time so did not have the chance to ask them why they had moved. Sad times.
huwtec: I might be wrong but I always thought that the Bath store was ran by the same people who run the Cardiff store which I noticed last week has moved from the really nice shopping arcade in Cardiff to a not quite as nice an arcade. They were closed at the time so did not have the chance to ask them why they had moved. Sad times.
It is, yes. Same owners.
So a businesses good name (?) is a £400K asset, recoverable in a further future sale???
.
I get the impression you have an interest in the Bath store somehow?
Richard: Just hate reading nonsense and speculation typed in bedsits.
Just hate reading nonsense and speculation typed in bedsits.
Slightly pejorative don't you think?
Richard wrote the following post at 06-10-2015 10:59 PM:
Richard: Oh, Christ, get me out of here. This is every bit as bad as the Quad, Naim and Classic Car forums. Will never visit another forum. I have music to listen to and a wife to go to bed with. Nighty night.
Oh, Christ, get me out of here. This is every bit as bad as the Quad, Naim and Classic Car forums. Will never visit another forum. I have music to listen to and a wife to go to bed with. Nighty night.
Richard: Sadly no, other than the purchase of a Beolit 15. Just hate reading nonsense and speculation typed in bedsits.
Sadly no, other than the purchase of a Beolit 15. Just hate reading nonsense and speculation typed in bedsits.
Ban boring signatures!
Richard: Read your posts. I got a notification, took a look. Lots of very angry (exclusively) men.Am off again. But really, stop talking down things you have absolutely zero facts about.But then, facts and evidence haven't mattered since June 23rd 2016.
Read your posts. I got a notification, took a look. Lots of very angry (exclusively) men.Am off again. But really, stop talking down things you have absolutely zero facts about.But then, facts and evidence haven't mattered since June 23rd 2016.
Wasn't aware that you were involved in the Brexit negotitations, but - Bring it on!
A remoaner, I would never have guessed!
Regards Graham
Richard:Lots of very angry (exclusively) men.
Richard:The fact that this one's for sale indicated there's something there worth selling.
According to Daltons Business it is the B&O franchise that's for sale here. Is it not the case that B&O UK step in and take over franchise businesses that do not achieve annual targets? The investment is then lost, and B&O UK either run the store themselves, or close it down,
Sometimes business valuation and risk are not all that they seem.