ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Richard: Read your posts. I got a notification, took a look. Lots of very angry (exclusively) men.Am off again. But really, stop talking down things you have absolutely zero facts about.But then, facts and evidence haven't mattered since June 23rd 2016.
Read your posts. I got a notification, took a look. Lots of very angry (exclusively) men.Am off again. But really, stop talking down things you have absolutely zero facts about.But then, facts and evidence haven't mattered since June 23rd 2016.
Well, we have a saying where I'm from: Don't let the door hit you where the Lord split you.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
Duels:Actually somebody buying it will indicate there was something worth selling
KMA
B&O product history since 1991: Ridiculously long to list in a signature.
Outstanding KMA!
Crikey I’ve missed some great stuff. How did Brexit get into the thread?
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
I find it disappointing that this thread has become attacking - or so it seems - towards the current owner of the Bath/Cardiff stores. Personally I wish them every success in selling and hope the demise of B&O (as I see it) doesn't affect their own personal life too much. £400k is a significant amount of money that could have a detrimental effect to a business owner and their respective family and I certainly wouldn't wish that on anyone. I do firmly believe now though that B&O as we traditionally knew them are finished and dead in the water. Sad times but they have done it to themselves with extremely poor decision making over the last 10 years and products and software that just don't stack up.
Get out while you can. I said this earlier on in the year and say it again now. There is no more Bang & Olufsen, only BeoPlay.
Simon.
B&O products are V1-32, BS2, H95, E8 and an Essence remote.11-46 now replaced with Sony A90J 65”, Sony HT-A9, Sony UBP-X800M2 and Sony SRS-NS7.
Is Richard the owner?
Some of his comments ref retail etc were fair enough but as a new poster his attitude toward other posters absolutely stank!
Ban boring signatures!
Puncher: Is Richard the owner? Some of his comments ref retail etc were fair enough but as a new poster his attitude toward other posters absolutely stank!
Judging by his posts and those of two years ago I would say that he's either the owner or very closely connected.
My previous post landed at the bottom of the last page....... it's the franchise that's for sale according to Daltons. That being the case isn't there a huge risk that if you do not meet the annual franchise targets set by B&O, they take you over and/or close the store, so your £400K is lost?
Graham
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Richard: This is the trouble when people who don't really understand business start discussing business. If you pay £400K for an asset it remains an asset and you are not looking to recover that £400K via profit. Profit is profit. The value of he business sits in the balance sheet as a positive and you'd recover the £400K by selling the asset on again. A business like this is worth it's fixed assets, goodwill plus a multiplier of previous profits.
This is the trouble when people who don't really understand business start discussing business. If you pay £400K for an asset it remains an asset and you are not looking to recover that £400K via profit. Profit is profit. The value of he business sits in the balance sheet as a positive and you'd recover the £400K by selling the asset on again. A business like this is worth it's fixed assets, goodwill plus a multiplier of previous profits.
Brilliant. Assumptions. You're talking to quite a few successful people on this board - I don't run an international business with no idea of understanding how to operate a business.
What asset do you gain for £400K, exactly? The building is leasehold and you obtain no stock. Where's the value in the £400K? And you're assuming you can simply sell the business as an ongoing concern.
Frankly, you don't know what you're talking about.
Hi Richard,
B&O enthusiasts here can also be the harshest critics. Concerning risk, I personally know of a franchise loss and eventual closure by B&O due to targets not being met. I don't expect open discussion here about the detailed arrangements of a particular store, but isn't potential franchise loss a risk to be considered in a purchase?
vikinger: Hi Richard, B&O enthusiasts here can also be the harshest critics. Concerning risk, I personally know of a franchise loss and eventual closure by B&O due to targets not being met. I don't expect open discussion here about the detailed arrangements of a particular store, but isn't potential franchise loss a risk to be considered in a purchase?
Absolutely. And bear in mind a) the two previous Bath stores went bust (which would indicate to me that Bath is a tough market) and b) the current store has only been in business 2 years - since 2015. And the owner wants to sell up. Most business owners don't sell if they see a profitable future.
Like I said in an earlier post, if the turnover is £700K/year and you make on average 25% profit, then the gross profit is only £175K/year. Take into account the rent on the building, wages and other daily costs, the profit won't be much more than about £75K/year.
So, with the up-front £400K (minus stock cost), you have to be in business for a good solid 5-6 years to make it a viable purchase: and bear in mind a) the previous two Bath stores went bust and b) current owners wants to sell after 2 years of trading.
Richard: I'm sorry if that's blunt but when you have people discussing business valuations with no understanding of risk and reward or even a balance sheet and profit and loss account it's a frustrating read.
I'm sorry if that's blunt but when you have people discussing business valuations with no understanding of risk and reward or even a balance sheet and profit and loss account it's a frustrating read.
Hello Richard,
I just google-image reverse searched your avatar, and it's now clear I cannot question your understanding of business. However, you're in the open now and are fair game to have your brain picked. :O)
Surely you'd be looking forward when valuing a business? My combined turnover in 2013/14 was over £1m, with a GP of around 35%. Valuing my business back then, with lots of merry projections, would have been great to see. In hindsight I should have tried to sell the business right then, but future-vision goggles weren't invented back then. If anyone has a pair, can I borrow them please?
Anyway... March 2017, and my turnover was set to be less than a fifth of that, with five figure losses every month.
Same business. Same product. Same level of service from my company. Nothing changed... apart from B&O. Something out of my control.
People's perceptions of it changing, multiple stores closing, pitifully poor advertising, demand evaporating, and the brand as a whole simply going off people's radar. Despite my best efforts, I couldn't carry on.
So what to look at is not where a business has been, but where it's going. Surely?
Someone with over half a million pounds to spend would (if they had a shred of sense) look at how many stores have failed, the brands direction, the current and future direction of high-end consumer electronics, and that of B&O as a company? After looking at those, would it look like a shrewd investment?
I'd genuinely be very interested to hear your views from another standpoint, and that's not from an argumentative perspective.
Lee
Any business will only succeed if it has saleable product and a steady supply of willing buyers. As far as I can see, B&O have neither at the moment, or for the foreseeable future.
Regards Graham
Richard: You have to ask yourself what it'd cost to start a new store and guess it'd be a similar number but you'd be starting from scratch and with no baton to pick up.
You have to ask yourself what it'd cost to start a new store and guess it'd be a similar number but you'd be starting from scratch and with no baton to pick up.
I'm not sure it would be more expensive than £400K + stock. Besides, would anyone with any due diligence setup a new Bath store based on 'success' of the previous two (and third if you include the current, which is up for sale).
Of course, there are owners who can make it work, but I guess it depends on the area, too. Bath is all about the position of the store. The previous store owner wanted to find a location outside of Bath at one point, on the outskirts, to save on rent and to be able to serve the store with the vans required for home installation. The current store is in a very odd position, in my opinion, as almost no-one walks past it, so footfall is low, even for the relevant target market (I live next to the Crescent, off Brock Street, but rarely walk past the store).
moxxey: Richard: You have to ask yourself what it'd cost to start a new store and guess it'd be a similar number but you'd be starting from scratch and with no baton to pick up. I'm not sure it would be more expensive than £400K + stock. Besides, would anyone with any due diligence setup a new Bath store based on 'success' of the previous two (and third if you include the current, which is up for sale). Of course, there are owners who can make it work, but I guess it depends on the area, too. Bath is all about the position of the store. The previous store owner wanted to find a location outside of Bath at one point, on the outskirts, to save on rent and to be able to serve the store with the vans required for home installation. The current store is in a very odd position, in my opinion, as almost no-one walks past it, so footfall is low, even for the relevant target market (I live next to the Crescent, off Brock Street, but rarely walk past the store).
From B&O's website invitation to join them as a retailer;
(From recollection they used to ask £300K min)
Thank you for the reply Richard, which is in line with my thoughts (apart from the valuation).
Perhaps the reaction to your post was because many people on this forum are long-time followers (and buyers) of B&O, who (as already pointed out) have been watching the B&O franchises slowly go bust, one by one, over the last 5-8 years and see buying a store as a ludicrous thought.
When an agent values a business, they do it on past turnover. What else can they do? I think what we're talking about is the valuation based on future turnover, of B&O products alone.
The clever B&O dealers are the ones doing big installs, combining B&O with other brands. Simply standing proudly at the front of your B&O store and ignoring the competition is financial suicide. I understand Cardiff and Bath are pretty tech-savvy, so maybe this has aided their figures?
Either way, I wish all B&O Dealers the very best. Anyone who has either hung on, or prospered in the last 3 years is clearly very astute.
vikinger: Shop-in-Shops are best suited to locations within retail spaces with complementary product offerings, such as kitchen or furniture showrooms, or within larger format AV stores selling a broad range of audio and visual products.Initial investment: €50,000 to €80,000 Expected return: 2-3 years
.... and if they'd kept 'shop-in-shops' instead of being incredibly arrogant in the good times and demanding 'B1 or Nothing' from their large array of outlets, the brand awareness wouldn't be in the mess it is now.
So many more people would still be familiar with the brand, but a B1 store simply frightened the 'browsers' away. How many people have I heard say "Ha! I could never afford to go in a B&O store. I'm not rich!" and so on.
You need browsers to get the name known, keep it being talked about, keep it on people's brand-radar, and when B&O is next to the mass-market offerings you can actually see and compare the craftsmanship.
vikinger: Bang & Olufsen Brand StoresInitial investment: €225,000 to €375,000 Expected return: 3-5 years And I'm assuming those figures include the initial demo stock, too? If B&O Bath are asking €450K + stock costs (£50K+?), then this is a serious amount of money. ie. you'd have to be absolutely sure, as a new owner, you could make the store make a healthy profit to see a return on that investment, going forward.
And I'm assuming those figures include the initial demo stock, too? If B&O Bath are asking €450K + stock costs (£50K+?), then this is a serious amount of money. ie. you'd have to be absolutely sure, as a new owner, you could make the store make a healthy profit to see a return on that investment, going forward.
Not sure what's happened to the forum formatting above?
moxxey: Not sure what's happened to the forum formatting above?
Cut & paste of some partial HTML leaving a tag or two open.
--mika
tournedos: moxxey: Not sure what's happened to the forum formatting above? Cut & paste of some partial HTML leaving a tag or two open.
Removed a chunk of rogue <div> - looks fine now, bar the improved larger font
Well, this doesn't look good! Need to get closer to the sign (one of which is hanging off the window), but looks like B&O Bath has closed down!
Says they have moved, but I'd assume this is to the Cardiff store. I'll walk past later.
The (UK) high street is not a pretty place at the moment...not that this helps B&O franchises, but lots of businesses are struggling to make the high street work.
Coffee shops and cafe's seem to be the only format left that works.
Yep, it’s “moved” by consolidating with the Cardiff store - so, no Bath B&O store. Again.
Managed to walk past on way in to town.
I wonder if Richard swings by to enlighten us thickies again!
Puncher: I wonder if Richard swings by to enlighten us thickies again!
Richard has become Ricardo and has removed his avatar and posts...... but fortunately most live on in the response quotes!
Didn't he turn out to be a business studies lecturer?
vikinger: Puncher: I wonder if Richard swings by to enlighten us thickies again! Richard has become Ricardo and has removed his avatar and posts...... but fortunately most live on in the response quotes! Didn't he turn out to be a business studies lecturer? Graham
Meh - it was his arrogant, "I know better than all of you folk" attitude that I remember.
moxxey: Yep, it’s “moved” by consolidating with the Cardiff store - so, no Bath B&O store. Again. Managed to walk past on way in to town.
I blame Torchwood.
Here he is (unless he was impersonating someone else with his avatar)!
https://www.uclan.ac.uk/staff_profiles/dr_richard_weston.php
Sandyb:The (UK) high street is not a pretty place at the moment...not that this helps B&O franchises, but lots of businesses are struggling to make the high street work. Coffee shops and cafe's seem to be the only format left that works.
Indeed, that was a bit throw away on my part.
The high street is a bit unforgiving for formats that don't work that well, or who dont have strong brand.
Richer Sounds do have a good name, in so far as they're the go to place for many (outside of the big box retail outlets).
I wasnt trying to downplay the challenges brands like B&O have, believe me.
Indeed, my experience is even more pointed - my close peer group generally earn well into 6 figures, and they wouldn't consider spending 5-10k on a TV. They are happy spending 70k on a Gaggenau equipped kitchen, but that's generally seen as a 20 year investment.
The B&O store near my old office in the city (St.Paul's) literally was known amongst my colleagues as the empty store - now closed of course. And thats an area populated by well paid bankers.
Not sure if the Bose comparison is apt though, they're generally quite a bit cheaper than B&O.
In the end, B&O have always been niche and aspirational - the issues on the forum taken in totality just illustrate that companies like B&O have little wiggle room. Small is not a good place these days, and puts a lot of pressure on getting your products right - which they clearly haven't in recent years, Play aside.
Sandyb: The B&O store near my old office in the city (St.Paul's) literally was known amongst my colleagues as the empty store - now closed of course. And thats an area populated by well paid bankers.
Indeed. If B&O can't make a store work near St Paul's, I'd internally ask a number of key questions. Like you rightly say Sandyb, all the key UK banking and trading is done in this area. One my mates (who moved to the States recently) spent his entire day just going to meetings in this area and couldn't believe how much money they had to invest. And those same guys aren't going in to a B&O store? wow.
Sadly, I'm a massive B&O fan, but have almost completely gone off the brand, bar a few BeoPlay purchases. There's just nothing really happening with the core brand, either, and no-one appears to have noticed this. It's June - half way through 2018 - and what has been released so far? What does a dealer (who generally knows what's coming 6 months in advance) have around the corner? If I was dealer right now I'd be borderline panicking.
Yeah unfortunately tech and AV has gone ever more mass market, and short cycles makes life tough for the likes of B&O, even had they been devoid of software issues, or had some better designers.
So yes, much as though its easy to throw stones at the brand (i had a poor experience with my BV14, so i know, and thankfully exchanged for something better), i still kind of blame broader structural forces every bit as much (arguably more so) than the company specific travails.
Its a shame though - my current setup is so very very good, i don't begrudge its cost, and replicating it with non-B&O products would end with a less well integrated bulkier system.
Thankfully i dont need to upgrade, i can resist the HDR itch for a few years, and from i was told yesterday, there will be a successor BV (down shoot the messenger i plead) and I'd accept the less elegant hybrid LG UI as long as the design is good enough, and the integration with other B&O products remains.
moxxey: Sandyb: The B&O store near my old office in the city (St.Paul's) literally was known amongst my colleagues as the empty store - now closed of course. And thats an area populated by well paid bankers. Indeed. If B&O can't make a store work near St Paul's, I'd internally ask a number of key questions. Like you rightly say Sandyb, all the key UK banking and trading is done in this area. One my mates (who moved to the States recently) spent his entire day just going to meetings in this area and couldn't believe how much money they had to invest. And those same guys aren't going in to a B&O store? wow. Sadly, I'm a massive B&O fan, but have almost completely gone off the brand, bar a few BeoPlay purchases. There's just nothing really happening with the core brand, either, and no-one appears to have noticed this. It's June - half way through 2018 - and what has been released so far? What does a dealer (who generally knows what's coming 6 months in advance) have around the corner? If I was dealer right now I'd be borderline panicking.
Final creditors meeting of B&O St Pauls, looks like customers deposits lost were £30,000
https://document-api-images-prod.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/docs/dVDN0kB_iKIJjVXjfhdfbCVM3imXv7Zv5TXfS7xoVs0/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Content-Sha256=UNSIGNED-PAYLOAD&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAJ4QHLBBKQOOR5TFA%2F20180605%2Feu-west-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20180605T200018Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=FQoDYXdzEJD%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaDIa8hWS%2FrG0bhnyitiK3A0ex9FuJsChj1NkE%2FenyYJGJz13iZ1ikOcIbwlJqXRFzv37QYUO%2BnPj3%2Fq0YTx%2FoIaZaLztOTKLTY7WbAf9bBDRAxy2MVV7NhZsA6duWV30BKSkdqIrOHMDN1SZcQdtJIRfSA%2FsujXbwgft8ZNss1c%2F0udJzmQob5ZDjfEGQ%2FeNVvRFSnVd6FrSWYTVaWE51V6ow03D%2FttjuOr5YdQzCODYA6kHPdsdknHg1%2FylkHhm5a1E6vTxnm9cvk%2B5Y8uqNVY2ONLiX1M%2BcwPFojl4QAcjA83AWSM3t39ktCdnm9slcReZNEsLL2uNzjofKPqlygack5FidgkqM2jFSXUHkvmyOKJ2Jla94KfbQEwsflh0KfQL%2BgnDM9eVtClyuNUJGElqym6ajSL9HM7C0Tx7LPP0JFXyRytMoSpgn3s9%2FkWyfbqhwHkGqXesPVGn72wvxMqyh2e6X5iNjP1lWxYS9o2VQQSUYS333VYJawCLagTp01%2F2tuEixbHvjuOLe3ds6Ca5fL0FN97UXrFONrYey6RHZM%2B%2Fv7xfxScWSbD53xI5FshU0HCmV5DpgrYbkQkZep3OfKW5X%2FXAousHa2AU%3D&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=07aa329fcbbd1a1c924cc3dff4023ebd040d43e445d17964671a34b93ba1290f
Where B&O were owed £295,000
the big loss where the investors @ £400,000!! (coincidence that was the figure, IIRC, B&O Bath were up for sale in Dalton's weekly?)
Are all replies to this topic being moderated or is it just me :)
lets use post this as a test then...