ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Thanks Moxxey! I got a grey V1-40. Check it out in the 'flash' thread. I didn't buy a fret - for me that was an unjustifiable cost. Thinking of making one - how hard can it be to get a bit of coloured fabric and stretch over a panel with a couple of holes stamped in it. Could be fun too! Has anybody else thought of doing this?
Sorry but the Dealer already verified that all 8 were from different batches .. and actually we were able on the last on to test out idea, that it is not just the transport which may cause issues its actually following thier instructions to remove it from the packaging !!!.. as we were able to replicate the issue on the "virgin" parts quite easily ... again its a 10cent fix ... but what did they miss it .... and that was my point i would expect something simple like this to be picked up and solved BEFORE a client gets their hands on it ... which mens there quality standards are really slipping and going downhill ... they need to maintain an Apple like attention to detail as they are often compared to apple from a design and mindset, and as such they need to focus on the whole experience ... bugs can be fixed ... look at what apple did with the Antenna gate issue ... not hide away and stay the problem can not happen !!
Ill edit a pdf and upload to my DB later to show what the issue is.. and how it could be solved..
Thanks for the clarifications and sorry for my lack of remembering all the details of thread (e.g. they were different batches)
Nobackup:but what did they miss it .... and that was my point i would expect something simple like this to be picked up and solved BEFORE a client gets their hands on it ... which mens there quality standards are really slipping and going downhill
what I would suggest is that the shipment quality test needs to be upgrade in some fashion - depending upon what the findings of a B&O investigation yield, i.e. what IS different between the testing process that has worked for say 10+ years, and the transportation methods being used by some delivery firms ?
my point is they did test, they did use the same test they used for other BeoVisions (the only exception I believe is the 103"), and that it was used/tested as part of product development (this was what we were told at Struer last month and in answer to a specific question I had) ... so your dealer's situation highlights that B&O need to update the test to reflect the reality of some current delivery techniques
We were also told that everyone of the first production sets (we are talking about several thousand units) was individually test as part of their standard quality control process ... what they did not do, and perhaps no one can realistically do, is arrange for every one of those units in the first month of shipping to be inspected by the dealers
I hope I am not sounding pedantic - I often can do so :-)I am just trying to be precise with the definition - which is sadly a technique engrained into me for tracing the root cause of a problem - sadly because it drives my family nuts :-shttp://suite101.com/article/kepnertregoe-problem-analysis-a95010
BeoNut since '75
moxxey:Great news on your purchase. Which model did you buy in the end? Did you get yourself a contrast colour fret?
Thanks Moxxey! I bought the white V1-40, but also set up a black V1-40 for an old lady I know. I only have the silver fret that was included now because the red one they demo in the store didn't really look very special in the white model. I have to check more closely when I have time to go there.Unfortunately they had no stand left for me so my TV is still in its packaging... four or five days.. Argh..Here is two pictures from the installation at her place: Picture 1 Picture 2
Beolab 50, Beolab 8000 x 2, Beolab 4000 x 2, BeoSound Core, BeoSound 9000, BeoSound Century, BeoLit 15, BeoPlay A1, BeoPlay P2, BeoPlay H9 3rd Gen, BeoPlay H6, EarSet 3i, BeoVision Eclipse Gen 2 55", BeoPlay V1-40, BeoCom 6000 and so much else :)
Nobackup:@mike enough proof now ... "Since the author of this thread has failed to show any pictures" ... or are attacks the correct thing here on this forum ?..
Hi Nobackup,
I am really sorry that you feel attacked by me. I did not mean to be mean. I was a bit upset of your title and I still think the problem lies in shipping.
After seeing your pictures I now understand the issue. I have not looked for this myself and will check my unit as soon as I get home. Still in its packaging I have not been able to set it up because I have not gotten a stand for it yet (that is also a big problem for Out of the box experience..).
I hope that B&O will help you but as I said earlier today I think the problem has to be investigated. And you are right, cheap foam or paper between these would help. Ever unpacked a printer? They are filled with papers and orange tape to make it appear good when unpacked. But it is not very fun to take all the tape away :).
After i have looked at the pictures i went to some dealers around Copenhagen, and none of their TV's had this scratch of the painting. The dealers also told me the same things about V1, that every single TV goes through a manuel test of quality, painting, functionality, heating and cold etc. and in every box you will find a small paper, where the person who have packed the TV has made their own signature, as a quality stamp.
None of the dealers i spoked to had seen any paint problems on the V1's and in Denmark they have sold alot. Many of the dealers has sold more that 30 units each, and none of them with scratches. So i think you have been extremelly unlucky.
Now I can confirm that it seems to be a real issue unfortunately. I went to my retailer today to pick up a wall mount and I asked him about the scratches and he told me that B&O was fully aware of the problem and that they might be looking to use another coating or paint instead.
I looked at their demo units (a black 32 and white 40). The black one had several scratches and on the white one I could find one scratch that looked more lika coating that was cracking.I took a few pictures of the black one, didn't have time to take a picture of the white one unfortunately.Picture 1Picture 2Picture 3
I havent noticed these scratches before I saw nobackups powerpoint presentation about them but of course they arent very nice. However they are quite minor and I don't think most people will notice, however they might be getting worse by time but that is also hard to say. I kind of like the rough look :)
Michael: Now I can confirm that it seems to be a real issue unfortunately.
Now I can confirm that it seems to be a real issue unfortunately.
Michael, do you think it's worth an apology after multiple posts claiming it's virtually a non-issue and not to worry? :)
On a serious note though, that is incredibly disappointing (the paint issue), even more so after multiple pages from people stressing how great Danish production is and how Chinese production will end in tears. Frankly, I've not seen a post about poor Beosound 8 or Beolit 12 build quality, from anyone. The irony hurts.
I hope B&O get this sorted soon. I spent quite a lot of time trying to convince a non-B&O user that B&O represents top quality and it's definitely not "style over substance". He even went in to a B&O store, admired the V1, took home a catalogue and discussed it with me. I can't really recommend a V1 at the moment. A bit embarrassed, if I'm honest.
Everybody has their youknowwhats in a bunch over something that has already been discussed (WITH PICS) by some of the same posters HERE...
I give up.
moxxey:Michael, do you think it's worth an apology after multiple posts claiming it's virtually a non-issue and not to worry? :)
I never said it was a non-issue, I said that it probably is a shipping issue and I still believe so after seeing the scratches myself. It looks like the two metal pieces are rubbed against each other in transit.
I don't see it as a big issue however - BUT it can be if the paint or coating is flawed in some way but actually I think the real issue is in transit. But of course the paint should be good, we dont want them to start chipping into fragile pieces after a few years like old lead painted buildings.
Of course what my dealer said might be what he himself was thinking and perhaps I got the wrong idea but we will se in the future I guess.
ɓʋɾɑɳɫɘɮ: Everybody has their youknowwhats in a bunch over something that has already been discussed (WITH PICS) by some of the same posters HERE... I give up.
You're absolutely right ....................................you should give up!
Ban boring signatures!
As a prospective buyer in my view this cosmetic issue / damage is totally unacceptable. If it's a transport issue, then transport rods might be required to prevent the case halves from rubbing. If this damage occurs when the stand rods are inserted, then the issue is the coating and B&O need to use a much less fragile powdercoat. I have motorcycles with powdercoated subframes and these show no chips or scratches and hardly any wear although they are subjected to lots of abrasion from rough ballistic nylons, rocks and insects! B&O needs to resolve this ASAP.
The old B&O items where shipped in styrofoam and soft form, too and they where not damaged everytime you received them :)So, I personally think that the quality goes down, too: I have Beolabs 3500 "Made in Denmark" and "Made in Czech". The younger "Made in Czech" one did "stink" out of the box like some chemicals... the "Made in Denmark" ones where perfect without smelling dangerous. ;-)Lower quality due to cost saving and outsourcing because the management is greedy? Most of the time the same and the 1st sign that they'll go down.A company needs to make revenues and profit but they need to make very good products, too. If not they must go bancrupt from an economic point of view because the marked does not need low quality companies. Even the discount practice is a very bad idea!Simple example:If e.g. Ford offers 20% discount on all their models it would increase sales.If e.g. Porsche offers 20% discount on all models they'll start to fail and go down.Instead of making embarassing videos, the CEO should care about maximising Service, Productquality and Innovation to keep up with the competitors in the market.Actualy it is not safe to buy a new B&O TV.
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
TWG: Lower quality due to cost saving and outsourcing because the management is greedy?
Lower quality due to cost saving and outsourcing because the management is greedy?
The V1 is made in Struer, Denmark. Kind of refutes any discussion about products from Denmark being vastly superior to others. Like I've said before, a lot of this is vague xenophobia, sadly. Westerners clinging on to the belief that British is best or only our factories produce quality. The Chinese-produced Beosound 8 and Beolit 12 are, ironically, some of the best produced products. I see few complaints about the BS8 build quality.
If anything, the "low quality" debate isn't about greed (as I said, the V1 is made in the traditional B&O factory, in Denmark), it's more to do with B&O cutting back on staff numbers - didn't I read that a third of the staff had been cut in 2008/2009? This is bound to affect production quality and there's no surprise we had lots of software issues around the same time. QA and post-production checks are often areas which are cut back first.
But it's not limited to B&O. As we've said earlier in this thread, luxury cars suffer from production issues and recalls. In fact, I read in the latest What Car that some of the so-called German luxury brands suffer far more from mechanical issues than their Japanese and South Korean competitors.
Same with the watch market. I'm a collector and some of you guys would be amazed by some of the issues found in this market. For instance, I had a deposit down on a Panerai PAM 386 composite watch. Was delayed, now cancelled. Although they produced a small number of these watches, they found that they....faded in strong sunlight. Seriously.
As I've said before, buying luxury and spending thousands of pounds of products, doesn't always result in perfection. In the watch market, you can pick up a £15 quartz watch and it will keep better time than a £10,000 automatic mechanic watch. Cheap Japanese cars often out-perform their German equivalents for mechanical issues, whilst top quality clothing brands are also not immune from production errors.
The problem is that humans have this belief that "spending thousands = top quality" and we need to get away from this as it nearly always end in disappointment. No, spending thousands actually means you get something relatively unique. When you get something unique and made in small production numbers, you also find that you live on the bleeding edge. In the watch market, buying a carbon case or a composite watch. You pay a premium for this material, but it's not always perfect.
When you buy something expensive the only certainly is that you payed a lot of money for it. We've said time and time again that expense does not guarantee quality. What you may have is exclusivity due to low production volumes, note also that exclusivity doesn't even guarantee desirability to many. Moxxey is a fan of watches, this isn't a dig at him or his hobby but I've seen watches costing thousands that look like a kidney dialysis machine strapped to your wrist i.e. not in any way desirable or aspirational (to me at least).
Your expensive purchase may also have been designed by a small team on a very limited design budget, it may lack the results of huge research and development budgets spent by more mainstream, higher volume manufacturers. Therefore your money may not even guarantee you have the best of components.
The above may not apply to all products or every niche supplier and I'm certain the marketing departments of such companies would love you to think that only their products are lovingly carved by hand from solid by a Geppetto looking character who has done it every day of his life since puberty but in the high tech AV market this isn't really the case either.
After all that my point is - consider each and every product on it's individual merits, don't assume all speakers are fantastic or that each TV is the best in it's class. Don't even pay too much attention to folk on Beoworld after all it's your money and you who has to live with it day to day, view/listen to it critically, compare it to what else is out there and then decide for yourself. Finally, only buy something to impress yourself, never anyone else.
There we have it, the world according to Punch!
One thing I forgot to add. Went to my dealer this afternoon to view the BL12-2. Whilst I was there I had a good look at the four V1s on display.
Sadly the black/dark grey V1s in the store display the same paint issues that a couple of users posted earlier in this thread. There's definitely an issue. Looking closely, there are sharp edges where the TV connects to the movable stand part. This might be causing some of the chipping through transit.
However, there was a gash on the black V1 on the main part of the TV, which tells me that the paint clearly chips off very easily.
It's important to point out that these issues only affect the black V1, the white ones on display were blemish-free!
According to my dealer, and like others have said, B&O are aware of these paint issues. Maybe they'll release some official paint for users to do a touch-up? :)
I'm going to side with Moxxey and Puncher here. B&O are a small. niche manufacturer. The V-1 is a brand new product using a unique assembly technique, made from a material and finish which are both 'new' to B&O. They are aware of the issue, and are searching for a solution.
To their credit, I think, B&O have historically taken great pride in delivering a high-quality product to the customer. Do you know the story behind the soft foam paper used to wrap many of their products? It was developed by B&O after it was discovered that BeoLab 8000's were arriving at clients homes with untoward scratches in the aluminum, caused by the Styrofoam packing. Russ
This is certainly frustrating for customers, and embarrassing for B&O. But they will figure out a solution.
We kid because we love.
RussR:Do you know the story behind the soft foam paper used to wrap many of their products? It was developed by B&O after it was discovered that BeoLab 8000's were arriving at clients homes with untoward scratches in the aluminum, caused by the Styrofoam packing. Russ
I have never seen that kind of soft foam, it has a plastic surface on the outer side with text in danish and english saying this side out. And it seems to work also. I have not unpacked my V1 completely but on torsdag(which day is after wednesday thursday?) I will have my wall mount installed. Been scanning the walls for tree-poles inside the wall with a special scanner and it seems that I have to put it very close to a door, but It will probably be very nice anyway =) Just have to wait and see.The wall mount is extremely good quality, never seen anything like it. Having it here in my hands it looks much better than in the store. Such quality.
Michael: on torsdag(which day is after wednesday thursday?)
Good luck on Thor's Day :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thursday
Torsdag and Thursday mean the same thing ! and are the same day :-)
Be careful with the hammer ... we don't want big holes in your wall or door
In fairness there is an issue and I understand B&O have acknowledged this and are replacing any sets which have this fault. New sets will not have this fault, deemed unacceptable. These things happen, nobody has died, it is certainly not the end of the B&O world as we know it. Regrettable but not an irretrievable situation in my view.
KingOfSnake: In fairness there is an issue and I understand B&O have acknowledged this and are replacing any sets which have this fault. New sets will not have this fault, deemed unacceptable. These things happen, nobody has died, it is certainly not the end of the B&O world as we know it. Regrettable but not an irretrievable situation in my view.
I could not agree more with you!
elephant: Michael: on torsdag(which day is after wednesday thursday?) Good luck on Thor's Day :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thursday Torsdag and Thursday mean the same thing ! and are the same day :-) Be careful with the hammer ... we don't want big holes in your wall or door
Haha that was funny :-). I am a bit confused about the wall mount instructions. They say that one must use screws and wall anchors each with a minimum load rating of 100 kg. My friends say that a wall anchor usually can hold about 20-40 kilo maximum on its own. So what is 100kg? I guess they mean the screws? or all four together?
moxxey: It's important to point out that these issues only affect the black V1, the white ones on display were blemish-free!
unfortunately the white ones have the same issue .. but you don't see it so easily as the "white" showing up on the black ones is the undercoat.. hence on the white ones we get the snowman in the snow storm effect
see here ======>>>>
Strange though that according to one of the posters that the dealers in denmark are not seeing this problem and they have shipped loads ...
Does this mean that
a) Danish dealers are in denial as B&O can do no wrong ?
b) ROW are being shipped a differ lower quality product ?
c) transport companies in ROW are less skill full than danish ?
d) V1's get travel sick the further away they get from denmark, and start to shiver all over ?
Please send your vote to the B&O QA team theta let this one slip through, though based on the cost of this one they may not be picking up the phone any more... :)
on a more serious note (note the above was humor,before someone here takes it too literal...me thinks its "A" as in Germany VW can also do no wrong )
how did they let this one slip through ... as i think we have established now that this is a poor quality issue ?
TIPP for any one still with a packaged product.. when you open it do not try (as the leaflet suggest) take it out of the lower foam shell by holding on to the sides where the two halves come together, as when I was at the dealer last week we quickly found out that is is when lifting it out of the foam, that most of the damage happens..
reason being is that the transport "pegs" are not strong enough to sop the rear and front halves from touching, and allowing the rubbing to disrupt the paint... once the STAND or WALL BRACKET parts are inserted the whole assembly is more ridged and the touching/rubbing can not happen...
and here is the joke... by inserting a piece of paper / cardboard at the factory that would only be removed after the "installation" of the stand this would not have happened, as this would also have protected the whole thing even during transport !!!
N.B after also seeing the "Display" V1s that have been on show for 2 weeks at the local dealer, lots of other marks and scratches can be found, so whilst the above would solve the "Scrapes" there seems to be an underlying issue with the paint :(
and here in lies my initial thoughts that how could such a "Image based" brand, drop the ball on QC is such a fundamental way ... did they perform their teasing only in "simulation" on some PC to cut cost ?... I would have expected more from a company asking a premium price for a commodity item , and this is not me trying to be snobbish... just a fact ...
BRAND VALUE = BRAND VALUES = BRAND EQUITY = BRAND HALO = (Achievable Market x Achievable price) - Total cost of sale = profit !!!
or not as the case may be :)
(Apple just released a laptop that costs the same as the V1 it sold out world wide in 4 hours !!!, Acer released a similar spec* 2 weeks ago which cost a third of the price... and can't give them away ...)
*based on both laptops abilitity to run Win 7.. screen differ but you cant take advantage of the retina screen under win 7
But I don't want a WHITE TV in my living room... Besides..., my BL3's on floor stands are grey..., and my BL11 is silver!
No idea why the majority of B&O owners buy the gear these days. For me it was always about the clear, unadulterated sound. "Add nothing". "What the recording engineer wanted you to hear". I'm sure many of you are aware of this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ09DI2Y-rY
Sometimes B&O was more successful than at other times. I only bought what worked to MY ears. 1974 is playing happily through 1993 gear into 2010 and 1976 speakers. All my gear is pristine and fully serviced. A TV with chipped paint is not in my future. In fact, I have a perfectly good 42" TV.
The attraction of the V1 is/was the 5.1 processor and a matched ICE-powered center channel. I'd prefer that the V1were a 46" but you can't always have everything. Hope the 40" won't be too small, so that panel had better be impressive.
So far it appears the V1 may not be quite ready for "prime time", given the cosmetic and PUC issues. I'm not a buyer until one of my two dealers can demonstrate to me that the V1 can process the output of my BM7000 without any loss of sound quality from phono, CD and FM in STEREO 4, and can give me clear 5.1 from my cable box so that I can hear voices clearly! The Beo4 must also be able to operate my cable box menus with a minimum of lag and aggravation. All this is possibly expecting too much. I'd like to be proven wrong about that though because the other B&O 5.1 solutions are just NOT in my budget.
Still waiting for feedback from V1 users who've done a complete installation with 4 B&O speakers and sub. No one has mentioned the adapters required for Powerlink either. Early days I guess.
I am aware that things can break, I ordered the Audi A6 when the new model came in 2005, it had alot of faults - baby deceases or what it is called with new products.. I returned it to the dealer after a little bit more than one year..
What I ment was that exchanging the V1 to new sets before they have solved the problem is just a waste of money for the dealer and B&O and furthermore it is a waste of material recourses!
It is not ok what has happend on all of these V1s, however the tv still works, and it is better to keep it until the problem is solved - then exchange it for a new one.
That is what I would have done anyway. :)
Rikard: I am aware that things can break, I ordered the Audi A6 when the new model came in 2005, it had alot of faults - baby deceases or what it is called with new products.. I returned it to the dealer after a little bit more than one year.. What I ment was that exchanging the V1 to new sets before they have solved the problem is just a waste of money for the dealer and B&O and furthermore it is a waste of material recourses! It is not ok what has happend on all of these V1s, however the tv still works, and it is better to keep it until the problem is solved - then exchange it for a new one. That is what I would have done anyway. :)
As I am the only one here who as talked about 4 dead sets, I guess this is meant for me ..
Please do read what I have written as
I still have the original set a t home ... the dealer is the one who keeps turning up with a new one as B&O tells him three is nothing wrong ... so he assumes its just a one off .... now after all of these DOAs I have asked him .... to take mine away and to give me a white one ... which still can have the same marks but they are nearly not visible .....
As per German Consumer LAW he is worried that after the third attempt to repair or replace the faulty item that I can ask for all my money back ... So we need to come to an agreement that I will receive a replacement for my original and that we both agree that this will remain with me as a temporary fix until the "Failure in Production" is resolved and he can finally replace it with a fixed and device without error.. and also that my Warranty only starts from the day the provide me with a error free device !!.. so this can only come with a new delivary and by taking back the first we will be showing that there is an issue ... welcome to the law !
I think that part of the reason for B&O in germany not to mention the issue or even to admit it, is that if there were to do so ... every client would have the right to give it back and receive 100% of the purchase price... also Warranty only kicks in after the "Production error has been resolved" .. which could also mean that in 2 years time someone could ask for a full refund (less ~12%) as they would be able to prove that there was a factory defect which they only became aware of then ..
So all in all by coming clean it becomes very expensive for B&O.. at least in Germany ... (
I had posted:
-
I certainly am not criticizing you, you have every right to demand the highest standards as I would if buying a £500 Samsung. There is clearly an annoying production glitch which has been acknowledged, I personally wouldn't care less if the manufacturer is going to have to foot a sizeable repair bill, these are the rules of the Game!
moxxey: If anything, the "low quality" debate isn't about greed (as I said, the V1 is made in the traditional B&O factory, in Denmark), it's more to do with B&O cutting back on staff numbers - didn't I read that a third of the staff had been cut in 2008/2009? This is bound to affect production quality and there's no surprise we had lots of software issues around the same time. QA and post-production checks are often areas which are cut back first.
FYI
Spoke to my nearer dealer today (125 miles). He has only received one black V1 and floor stand. Seems in North America a big container has been tied up in customs for a couple of weeks. Today he received a list of spare parts including all the V1 cables and has ordered a bunch so that he can experiment with connections. This black TV has a chip on the "hinge" portion at the bottom, but in this case in the rear. In his opinion there is a definite packaging problem and possibly a paint problem with using this lacquer finish. He'd be happy if the V1 were a "dealer installed only" and shipped with the two halves separated. That "might" avoid the paint issue.
So far he has just been using his shop's network and has been streaming music to it and watching via Apple TV and Roku and has been impressed. He mentioned that setup is relatively easy vs the other B&O TVs. He also mentioned that the V1 is ordered individually and does not ship "in the box" as shown on the Beoplay website with Beo4, floor stand, etc. This may explain the reason for "missing" accessories some have experienced. He will be ordering each V1 with appropriate stand and remote of the client's choosing along with other accessories required for the installation.
Until he can cobble together some plugs and cables, he can't guarantee how my installation might work. For sure, it won't be Masterlink but he feels some simple workarounds may overcome this. TBD...
Nobackup: [ I still have the original set a t home ... the dealer is the one who keeps turning up with a new one as B&O tells him three is nothing wrong ... so he assumes its just a one off .... now after all of these DOAs I have asked him .... to take mine away and to give me a white one ... which still can have the same marks but they are nearly not visible ..... So all in all by coming clean it becomes very expensive for B&O.. at least in Germany ... (
[
Sorry - I really did not see or remember that I read that.. :)
I hope it will work out for you!