ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
Hi everybody,
a question that may be a little provocative. However, we've heard it all time and time again that B&O is style over substance, overpriced and you simply pay for the design and not so much for the sound. For me, another aspect is - do speakers really sound that different in a sense of better or worse? Or is the experience of listening to music not more driven by the quality of the recording or the quality of the music itself? Doesn't the human ear adapt to the sound of a particular speaker anyways so that after some timedifferences or not as important as when comparing side by side - just when painting walls in a different colour and everything is different and new and great at first but after some weeks psychologically it feels just like before? So what is the "audiophile" that so many talk about when criticizing B&O for being not? And in turn - what is qudiophile and in what ways is it better than B&O? Or stated differently - are the differences in sound reproduction really that significant or important to make design aspects pale in comparison? Of course you can't generalize but I hope you get what I'm after.
Cheers,
Kai
Buying B&O = enjoying great music with integrated, simple and great looking stuff
Buying Audiophile stuff = never ending upgrading cables and strange components like magical stones to make your speaker sound better. You never relax and enjoy music, you just listen again and again to the same "perfect audiophile test track" to analyse where your stuff can be improved.
diisign.com
First of all I think Audiophile might be a lot of things. One of them the placebo effect. A lot of audiophiles uses very expensive cables with a lot of marketing bullshit and so on. That might or might not sound better in reality, but might sound better in thought because of the placebo effect. Then there is very expensive, very precise equipment that is made to sound really good, or really powerful etc. Those systems are often compromised of different hardware, ugly setups, thick cables and so on.It is not very easy to find ONE kind of audiophile, it is rather a interest one might have. Perhaps you want big speakers, or speakers that produces great sound (no matter how they look or cost) or maybe you want both looks and good quality. I would say B&O is the latter. Good design, good quality and good sound. I don't think you can find the "best" sound, you have to choose. But for what you get you do get really good sound, and looks, and simplicity. There is no other high quality speakers that is so easy to use as B&O. Nor to they look as good. So yes, you do pay for the style, but thats what you also expect when you go to B&O (Yes, you can have style and be an audiophile).If you go out to eat dinner, would you say that it just looks good? I don't think so. When we eat we use our senses and it is the same when we listen to music or watch a movie. You live with the equipment and B&O makes that quite easy. The question regarding how the ear might adopt to different sound, well I think it is like with many other things: we like different things. Some like black, some like blue. Some people like bassy sound, some doesn't. I think most people sounds different through a microphone than they do in reality (not only because of the microphone itself but because of them often singing in echo free rooms and being mixed in the sound booth). B&O tries to reproduce the sound as much as the recorded sound is supposed to sound and that is what a speaker should do, except for looking good :-).
Beolab 50, Beolab 8000 x 2, Beolab 4000 x 2, BeoSound Core, BeoSound 9000, BeoSound Century, BeoLit 15, BeoPlay A1, BeoPlay P2, BeoPlay H9 3rd Gen, BeoPlay H6, EarSet 3i, BeoVision Eclipse Gen 2 55", BeoPlay V1-40, BeoCom 6000 and so much else :)
I completely agree with this. I just stopped with the comparing, and now I am just enjoying :)
"You think we can slap some oak on this thing?"
Being an audiophile for me also means you are able to consistently find and keep absolutely best audio sources like excellently recorded LPs, high-bitrate wonderful digital recordings etc.
With my daily agenda (business+private), I just can't imagine when would I be able to build and maintain a collection like this. I understand there are people who are able to do it and it is out of sheer love for excellence which I do not share to that great extent. However I admire their passion.
I also can't afford a dedicated music listening room, and my living room certainly does not qualify for an audiophile-approved badge.
So when I put all variables into an equation - well, I can't and won't invest that kind of effort for the qualitative increment which I can't enjoy. Is it exponential, like the price is? Don't know, but also it is not (only) about money.
I do very much enjoy my B&O sound sig from A9MKII playing Deezer, and realize at the same time there is better. Only I can't find energy and time to care.
I think it's 100% personal taste isn't it. Maybe an audiophile needs to seriously explore other interests in life and around them and it's just possible that they are not appreciating the actual music. B&O for me is too flat and safe sounding, infact lifeless, not exciting or engaging but many people out there like that and I guess it's suited to classical music which is probably the only genre that I really dislike.
I'm sure a B&O fan will argue that theirs is indeed top audiophile in quality and indeed convince themselves that it is. You certainly can not argue with another persons ears. It's personal choice, I guess just like the person that you date :) Truly personal. It doesn't make you wrong and it doesn't make other people right or wrong. You decide.
Being an audiophile means constantly obsessing over what the other guy has and never being satisfied with your own setup.
Agree, I stopped obsessing about the equipment and learnt to enjoy it and B&O gives you that with wonderful aesthetics that you can live.
That said, others have mentioned quality of recordings and I agree that probably makes a massive difference as does the room you listen to music in, when you listen and how seriously you listen. I have tweaked my system and I am happy to now leave it alone and enjoy the music. I love the fact that with B&O you can select something to listen too and it is all over the house, it wakes me up in the morning with the radio, is on all day with classical music for the dog whilst I am out and is there when I get home and want to listen to music or watch TV - I usually end up pressing pause on a film and watching the rest in bed. I'm not sure there is anything else out there that offers the same ease of access to your sources, everywhere and with such ease. After 20 years with the same system, more or less, I doubt I would go up the audiophile route - perhaps in my study, but certainly not to live with on a day to day basis.
Like all manufacturers B&O have had their ups and downs - the thing they've always been really good at is integration and that is always the thing that draws me to B&O. Audio, Video and lights all controlled from a remote that is simple and intuitive. Previous integrated systems I've used left my wife baffled and angry at not being able to do simple things (like turn off the lights!)
in terms of sound quality some B&O products have been a bit mediocre, and bearing in mind the studio monitors used to record, mix and master orignial recordings can cost substantially less than top of the line beolabs I guess it's possible to argue that sound quality is not the only aspect of B&O that people value! Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love B&O stuff but for me it's about good to occasionally outstanding sound from products that I'm happy to share my home with design wise. In particular the ability to reproduce good sound from very compact speakers is a huge bonus; lots of 'audiophile' equipment and speakers I've seen are real eyesores.
Being an audiophile means you really like music in the purest way.
B&O have over the years on the whole aimed their products at those interested in ease of use, good egonomics and good sound. They have rarely entered the domain of the audiophile simply because this is usually changing all the time and B&O products are not that tweakable!
Exceptions:
The Beolab 5000 system 1967 - definitely audiophile and very tweakable !! Especially when used with the Beogram 3000 which was a Thorens TD124 in reality.
The Beolb 8000 system - again made to show what B&O could do - one of the best amplifier designs, superb state of the art cassette and probably the best automatic turntable made.
Beolab 5 - again a showcase for what they could do - stands up to almost any similarly priced and many far more expensive speakers.
Peter
"Being an audiophile means you really like music in the purest way."
The best definition
...and an audiophile tries to get the best (affordable) equipement to achieve this aim. Design and handling is not important, just the sound.
That's why B&O is not audiophile: a wonderful design, a wonderful handling, but if you are just looking for the purest (perfect) sound and it doesn't matter what your living room looks like, you get "better" equipement for the same amount of money.
B&O is in my eyes the perfect compromise between SOUND, DESIGN, and USER-FRIENDLINESS, but it is too easy to use to be audiophile .
I have been on very long journey recently that is far from complete and I still haven’t quite arrived at a solution. A while back we moved out of our house with our first baby whilst the house was being gutted. A few months prior I sold my Beolab 5s which I’d enjoyed for a while but wasn’t entirely happy due to poor low volume detail and clarity, boomy bass and excessive top-end. I was glad to be rid of Bs5 which I could never fathom and due the size of my collection I stood there for ages spinning that damn wheel….the I’d also heard rumours that B&O were working on w new top end-ish speaker so selling up seemed the best course in the context of having to move out for a year or so. In the last year I have been on a rather tortuous route of looking into other options.
These are my impressions and tastes so I do not wish to offend anyone…
· Linn – does nothing for me and their speakers weren’t anything special. To me an average sound.
· Naim – again nothing special about the sound and didn’t like the sound that came out of the speakers. I would not want a wall full of black boxes anyway and numerous expensive power supplies.
· Kondo – approachable second hand prices but still expensive. Beautiful valve equipment and some of the loveliest sounds/music I have heard but I want to go on holidays and pay of
· bits off my mortgage…
· TAD – phenomenal speakers and equipment but again super expensive and little to no second hand stuff.
· PSI studio monitors audio – the best speakers I have ever heard and totally blew me away but very big and purple and would ruin the living room.
· Weiss Audio – no nonsense snake-oil free equipment, handmade and a distinct possibility given its fantastic detailed DAC/pre on one and fantastic streamer thingey…
· Cessaro horns – detailed, dynamic, open but the horn sound to my ears is verging on the shrill at times and too big unless you like something that fell off a 747 in your living room...
· Living Voice – boxy, boomy, muffled.
· Origine – super expensive and again nothing out of the ordinary.
· Magico – more detail than most speakers and controlled bass – 75% of the PSIs.
· Puresound – good quality valve equipment but one needs sensitive speakers preferably horns.
· Brodmann - boxy, boomy, muffled.
Next on the audition list:
· Grimm LS1s studio monitors, DAC, pre all (rather like a BL5) plus configurable with room eq software to correct for one’s room acoustics and a sensible price. They also look discrete and blend in well with the home.
· Blumenhofer Horns and Mastersound valves
· Bastanis open baffle.
· ATC anniversary speakers – if they can do what PSI can but wrapped in some nice wood then I may well go for it but again most of the non-anniversary models are like your bog-standard ugly monkey coffins.
In addition to this I have met some lovely dealers who have not tried to bullshit me or pressurise me but there again then I have met: the dealer that used to sell stuff but no longer has it in his inventory because he fell out with the distributor and now slags it off, the dealer that frowns when you tell him you aren't going to ever spends thousands on cables and cable lifters, the dealer who only does vinyl and hates digital, the dealer who only does digital and slates vinyl, the dealer who laughs when you tell them of a valve amp you liked the sound of or a solid state that was good, the dealer who knows it all and rubbishes everything others think/feel and do, the dealer who tries to sell you his used pair of speakers at a price well above cost plus vat plus a reasonable margin even though they are several years old and tries to frighten you if you shop around, the dealer who says he knows it all because he used be a sound engineer but was actually a car salesman, the dealer who tries to push you way beyond your budget and insists you buy everything new….
So with several more pieces to try out before I end up in a state of terminal ‘paralysis analysis’, the final unrelenting issue that bugs me is that it has to fit in with the family and the environment. I want the kids to learn about and form an appreciation/passion for music as they grow up. I don’t want to lock myself away in a dark basement away from light and fresh air, rolling tubes and adjusting cable tensions every night. Most of the gear I have described above simply looks damn awful in a living room and B&O quite rightly remain married to design plus quality plus performance and the compromise is good. Call me mad but I also want the wife ot approve and be proud of it and not detract from her effort to craft a lovely home. Now I need to learn the art of compromise myself but perhaps the new Beolab X will satisfy my fussiness when it comes to the sound quality that I am seeking even if the Beosound Moment left me cold otherwise it will be some big purple speakers for me…
Long live Bang & Olufsen!
.
Present: BL90, Core, BL6000, CD7000, Beogram 7000, Essence Remote.
Past: BL1, BL2, BL8000, BS9000, BL5, BC2, BS5, BV5, BV4-50, Beosystem 3, BL3, DVD1, Beoremote 4, Moment.
To me you got 2 worlds when it comes down to your personal audio habits.
B&O or HIFI!
HIFI is really boys and their toys to an extent which to an outsider seems to the forget what real sounds actually sounds like and what they are trying to locate in the sonics of perfect sounds is nothing but an illusion in their minds.
Being a musician I know how loud amps sound, effects and guitars work. All the quirks that make a sound and it is a bit the same making you guitar sound just right and that can be hell sometimes. I also know the feeling of interaction in groups and what that does to overall sound before you even get to make a recording of it.
I also play drums and know well enough when a kit/drummer sound good to awesome.
The point is that when the basics of music sounds good audio reproduction should not be a science for a selected few who think they know sound because they really don't.
Sure I have changed a bit with my B&O setups but it is like I had to find the ones that would be right to me but it all sounds really good when it works and it comes down to the design you like nothing else. It does not matter much if you have 8000, 6000, 2000 ('80s) or 6500. There is a consistency in B&O sound production I have to find in other brands not that I care much for that.
http://www.hifizine.com/2010/09/the-unease-of-the-audiophile/
I just got the link earlier today a kind of cynical view of a audiophile and how you can see if you fit in that world. Pretty interesting read.
koning:Being an audiophile means you really like music in the purest way.
Whahahaha
most ....but not all!
I've really enjoyed this thread, so thanks to all of those who have participated. It has really opened my mind to the world of audio and the kinds of folks out there, and what makes us all tick in different ways. That being said, isn't it all relative? To my friends, I'm the audiophile, to the classic definition of audiophiles, I'm definitely not.
But as many have stated, labels don't matter, our enjoyment is what matters, and if B&O does that, who cares what others think... except for my wife of course. HA HA HA!
leosgonewild:Yet, most audiophiles do not go to concerts
we tend to forget there is more to design than designing.
Mark:all I said to the sound engineer ..... then I was asked to leave
I'm certainly no audiophile and my ears are probably shot (literally), but still I think that no electronic reproduction can hold a candle to a real orchestra at a proper concert hall. And even then you can be fooled by active acoustics without even knowing it!
Rock/pop concerts then again... you won't be hearing the actual instrument anyway, so there's a better chance for actually reproducing it at your home.
--mika
I am an old school.I am not into the movies,I am into the music.I still have collection of LPs and CDs.My old equipments is hi-tech pre/pro componets carefully collected during the 70-ties .Still running,And 15 years ago I removed it from my appartment to the cottage on the island.Few years ago,I even added decent AVR and set of high quality 6.1 speakers set,so the kids can have streaming and watching movies.And it sounds fantastic to me,as well as to my family.Am I an audiophile?Yes,I am.
At the same time,15 years ago,I purchased my first B&O,Ouverture and pair of Beolabs 8000.Two years later pair of Beolabs 4000 and Beolab 2.And Beovision.Now,when we come back from the island to the appartment,and I switch on B&O,even wife and kids use to say:This is different world! Am I still an audiophile?Yes,I am.
You are an audiophile as long as you feel the music!
Beogram 6500 MMC2,Beosound Ouverture,2xBeolab 8000,2xBelolab 4000,Beolab 2,Beolab 7.2,Beo4 navi, 2xBeocom2,Serene,Beosystem 3 mk3,H6 2nd gen,Earphones E8,A8,A9 keyring,Beoplay A1,Bottle opener,Beoplay A2 active(thanks Botty)Wine Set(thanks Botty),4Ktv Samsung 55'',Beolab 7.1 with 42''Panasonic plasma,,Oppo udp-203, LinTronic.
That is some serious research and dedication of time !
Thank you for giving a balanced summary of discoveries to date.
I loved your painting of the spectrum of dealers
And I hope your exploration does bring you to the conclusion ...
seethroughyou:Long live Bang & Olufsen!
... and saves you from a purple pleasure palace !
BeoNut since '75
StUrrock:In the old days audiophile meant to me that the playback was as true to the original sound performance as possible. With pure acoustic performances with little or no processing etc this was always a joy and B&O try really hard to achieve this simple goal. However today there is so much tweaking, processing, auto tuning and the like on many recordings. Really great equipment can IMHO emphasise these artificial sounds and the recording actually sounds worse on high quality equipment in a perverse sort of way.
With pure acoustic performances with little or no processing etc this was always a joy and B&O try really hard to achieve this simple goal.
However today there is so much tweaking, processing, auto tuning and the like on many recordings. Really great equipment can IMHO emphasise these artificial sounds and the recording actually sounds worse on high quality equipment in a perverse sort of way.
I couldn't agree more
"Believe nothing you read and only half of what you see, let your ears tell you the truth."
Funnily enough, I've just returned from two days at the Munich High End Hi-Fi Show last week and i suppose that one might not unreasonably consider this to be Audiophile Mecca!
Frankly, some of the stuff there was downright weird, some plain daft, some ridiculous and some utterly fabulous. I spent a lot of time laughing quietly to myself and a certain amount of time crying quietly inside at the hideousness I was listening to! However, i also spent several hours in front of a handful of systems absolutely spellbound by the quality on offer. In one room I could almost swear that a live jazz trio was playing behind the acoustic screens that were sat behind the speakers - it was so realistic. However, the price tag was somewhere in the >200,000 Euro region, so I won't be buying it any time soon.
To me, the definition of audiophile (in THEORY at last) is summed up by the earlier comment about the love of music, but I think all too often the image is hijacked by the moneyed toy-freak with piles of expensive equipment and a handful of test discs to play on it - to me, this is not an audiophile!
Personally speaking, I currently have 25 turntables and about 10 pairs of speakers and i love buying items, repairing them, trying them out and either keeping them or selling them on. On the face of it, this would seem to make me the worst kind of "audiophile" and people assume that my main system changes every ten minutes! However, they are wrong. My main system has stayed pretty much the same for the last five years or so, as has the Beolab 8000 system in the dining room. The new items merely swap in and out on occasion when I wish to play with them.
So, in summary, if you wish to use it as an insult, then "audiophile" is probably a person who is obsesses with having the best (at least until the next 'best' comes along), worries about cables, cable stands, quantum purifiers, shakti stones and views music as a necessary evil to make the stuff do something. On the other hand, I would wager most of us who have been called it in the past prefer to think of it as marking us out as real music enthusiasts who want to hear the material in the best way possible, whether this involves B&O or not.
Had both. B&O is the bomb.
Superb style, and great sound if set up properly.
Some of B&O cheaper speakers sound 'very average.'
This is the same with any manufacturer.
Listen to a Century (over 20 years old) and the sound is just amazing, compared to all these new bluetooth speakers or compact systems.)
RIP Jacob Jensen (you big spunk.)
True pioneer.
I'm definitely not with you on that about the Century Chaka. I've owned one since 1999 and it's sound is lifeless on dance music. Very very bland sound and the cabinet vibrates with the slightest volume increase. The A8 is a far better sounding system - whether its as good as the B&W Zeppelin in terms of treble and clarity, I don't think so. Again, personal choice. I prefer a brighter sound which B&O does not seem to supply. :(
I remember years ago hearing a pop musician explaining how their tracks were overproduced to overcome the shortcomings of an ordinary radio on which it might be played. Therefore when played on a good sound system it'd sound a bit intense he explained. I'm not sure this applies so much nowadays .
Beo Century ,Beoplay V1, Beocenter 6, Ex-Beolit 12, Beotime , A8. Beolit 15 , Form 2i , Beolab 2000, Beoplay A3.Beosound 1
If this is being an audiophile, I am not an audiophile!
http://www.wired.com/2015/03/hot-stampers/?mbid=nl_030415
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
Beosound Stage, Beovision 8-40, Beolit 20, Beosound Explore.
Millemissen: If this is being an audiophile, I am not an audiophile! http://www.wired.com/2015/03/hot-stampers/?mbid=nl_030415 MM
Unbelievable. I guess this is where the monied 0.1% of the population burn some of their cash.
Better to spend your money on a pair of BL5's (or their forthcoming replacement)!
Graham
Off-topic - I know - but I don't think, that the BL5's are going to be 'replaced'.
Millemissen: Off-topic - I know - but I don't think, that the BL5's are going to be 'replaced'. MM
Agreed. I should have referred to more expensive proposed flagship speakers, presumably to be available for the price of a handful of alleged early pressed vinyl records.
Never categorize yourself! You listen your music for yourself, with your equipment and according to your taste. Who cares if B&O is audiophile or not?
Beovision Avant 55 / BV 11-40 / BV7-40 / Beovision Avant / Beosound 9000 / Beosound 5 Encore / Beosystem 4500 / Beosystem 6500 / Beocenter 9000 / Beolab 5000 / Beolab 18 / Beolab 19 / Beolab 11 / Beolab 17 / 3 sets of Beolab 4000 / Beovox Red Line 60.2
I love B&O items since a few years.But I don't think that B&O reaches audiophile quality, neither in terms of sound reproduction nor building quality with most of their items.Some highlights where the Beolab 5 or Beolab 1 speakers. My Beosound 3000 produces low static noise if you connect headphones and the building quality is midrange.Beocenter 2 seems to be better constructed and feels more premium, as does the Beosound 5.If you want to see and feel really high quality you should test components e.g. from Accuphase. A company where a CD-Player weights 17kg. Built to last. The downside is that a CD Player like this costs the same or more than your Beosound stereo system. I don't know any B&O speaker that is able to reproduce a very fine and detailed sound at low volumes.I've recently listened to a Lowther Academy speaker and I was blown away hoch much detail this speaker reproduces with low volumes. And this speaker does not costs 10.000 Euro. It was a very surprising pleasure to listen to it without getting my ears tired. The downside: In my opinion it needs a subwoofer - if you can call this a downside.The biggest problems with nowadays audio: Everything is compressed for the "loudness war" and the recording quality - despite the technology the studios can use today - is often only suitable for radio, streaming or MP3 but not for CD, LP or high resolution files.And the better your audio chain the worse can be your listening experience. On average speakers or Bluetooth speakers etc. you can't hear the shortcomings but with good speakers and good equipment you are often surprised about the bad quality of a recording!Quincy Jones, the producer who made e.g. Michael Jacksons recordings has put a big effort in recording quality and you can hear that, even if the recordings are 20 years old. And he did NOT have nowadays technology.There are labels who put their love in recording quality, like the german label stockfish records (http://www.stockfisch-records.de/) and it is a pleasure listening to it.B&O is not audiophile but as others stated: They do not sound bad or cheap, they don't sound artificial and with good recordings you just can lean back, relax and smile while enjoying your equipment. And for the basic functions (Listening, watching, light control) it is easy to use. If you want more, operation is too complex compared to other manufacturers.I combine B&O with other manufacturers equipment at home to get the best of both worlds and I'm happy with it.At this time I don't regret buying B&O equipment, even if it's not the best you can buy for your mony. I love it and somebody who said we are infected with the Beovirus is simply right. I don't want to be cured from it.