ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
http://www.bang-olufsen.com/en/sound/loudspeakers/beolab-12
Cool !
I saw the BL12-2s at my dealers this afternoon. They were much bigger than I expected. They aren't a great deal smaller than the 12-3's and are the same width.
However, I prefer them. They are a better size. Neater. I can see that these would be ace combined with a silver BL1. I can seriously see these becoming my next purchase. At £2500, not bad value. I need to see how they compare to BL3s though. They weren't set up at my dealer and he had to open the brand new box to show me (the BL12-2s).
Yes Moxxey,
interested to compare the sound to BL3.
I really like the design of the 12 series, very original, both in silver or white.
As i said before, i hope B&O unveils a floor stand soon (or a table stand for the 12-2) !
Steph: I really like the design of the 12 series, very original, both in silver or white.
Not sure about the white. It's not a subtle white, it's a shiny white. I think this will look a bit "80s" unless they are in a very bright white room.
Steph: As i said before, i hope B&O unveils a floor stand soon (or a table stand for the 12-2) !
My dealer has now changed his mind on this and says no floor stand is coming any time soon. When I asked him this afternoon why he mentioned a floor stand the other week, he said he was speculating himself (that the BL12s need a floor stand option) and that there isn't one coming out officially :(
So, wall mount only at least for the short-medium term, it seems.
moxxey:Not sure about the white. It's not a subtle white, it's a shiny white. I think this will look a bit "80s" unless they are in a very bright white room.
Bright (vs. matte) colours are coming back - or already did, if you look at what's available at IKEA
moxxey:My dealer has now changed his mind on this and says no floor stand is coming any time soon.
Just as I said in the other thread Not feasible technically. It's not going to be the same speaker.
--mika
My bet is that they look like a £2500 speaker but they don't sound like one! Would be pleasantly surprised if they are as good as Beolab 3's!
I heard the long ones, and they sounded great. The shorter one will and less bass of course.
I haven't compare with the Beolab 3.
Beoworld app with direct photo upload and emoticons.
KingOfSnake: My bet is that they look like a £2500 speaker but they don't sound like one! Would be pleasantly surprised if they are as good as Beolab 3's!
Ian, when I heard the BL12-3s, I thought they were very decent. Similar to BL3s, perhaps with a little more bass. I don't know how the BL12-2s will compare, but there's no reason why they shouldn't be as effective. The frequency range is wider, they have ALTs, bigger bass driver. Less wattage, but there's no reason why they shouldn't be as good.
Only thing that surprised me about the BL12-2s is that they aren't as small as I expected - still quite heavy, too.
My 12-3 labs are a good sound now I have both plugged in, not sure about the bass as I'm still working on the walls before I secure the speakers to the wall.
Time will tell and if not I will buy a lab 11.
Eclipse 65V1-32Beosound M5Essence MK2BLI
Mr Moxxey, clicked on the B&O website and with the scant details posted, together with the spelling frequency with an additional 'e' before the 'y', how can you determine that the frequency range is wider? Would be very surprised if they are as good. Appreciate your view, but when I heard 12-3's they were decidedly average, maybe it was just the installation in the Dealership - will listen more!
KingOfSnake: Mr Moxxey, clicked on the B&O website and with the scant details posted, together with the spelling frequency with an additional 'e' before the 'y', how can you determine that the frequency range is wider?
Mr Moxxey, clicked on the B&O website and with the scant details posted, together with the spelling frequency with an additional 'e' before the 'y', how can you determine that the frequency range is wider?
BL3s: 50-23,000 Hz
BL12s: 45.3 - 23,900 Hz
Cabinet volume is higher on the BL12s, too. Add a BL11 and the frequency range will be even greater, but I can't see it adding too much to the BL12s, based on the above values.
BTW, from the B&O website "FREQUENCEY DRIVERLE". Oops. In fact, they spell frequency incorrectly in numerous places. Surely rule 1 is to get the English right in the first place. I'm not talking grammar, basic spelling.
Hi Chris, the figures - from my reading of the new website anyway - refer to the 12-3's and therefore, as the frequency range is a function of cabinet volume and tech specs, can we expect the smaller 12-2's to have reported figures narrower than this? Possibly worse than the bl3's? I guess the real proof is in the listening!
@Mr K, IMHO a BL11 would be a waste of money my friend for 8hz!!! Might be worth a test session, think I might have a used one in stock, certainly have BL2.
BTW take a look at the new SONOS Sub @ 25Hz and £599 - off subject I know but wireless and am interested to hear what it sounds like just for curiosity value.............
KingOfSnake: Hi Chris, the figures - from my reading of the new website anyway - refer to the 12-3's
Hi Chris, the figures - from my reading of the new website anyway - refer to the 12-3's
No, those figures are across both speakers - if they differ for the 12-2, they'd be i the 12-2 column. Anything that across both speakers, is only in the first column (applies to both).
I doubt the extra bass driver affects the frequency range and the cabinet volume isn't too much smaller (and is bigger than the BL3s), so no reason to doubt their claims. However you look at it, it's quite a chunk wider than the BL3s.
Web page looks a bit unfinished and scrappy for my liking, speling mishtakes are totally unacceptable. We'll see, would be very surprised if figures apply to both speakers but I have been wrong once before. :)
For example, how have they reduced the physical size but maintained cabinet volume? This is revolutionary surely?!?!
KingOfSnake:For example, how have they reduced the physical size but maintained cabinet volume? This is revolutionary surely?!?!
Not that revolutionary. The speakers have different total masses, so their respective gravity fields result in different warping of their local space-time continua...
Or, according to Ockham, the explanation might be simpler.
Assuming you're talking about the bass cabinet volume: the individual woofers are in their own sealed enclosures. Therefore the volume is per woofer.
cheers
-geoff
Geoff Martin: Assuming you're talking about the bass cabinet volume: the individual woofers are in their own sealed enclosures. Therefore the volume is per woofer.
Cheers Geoff, thanks for the explanation. Can you nudge someone internally about the website spelling mistakes please!
moxxey:Cheers Geoff, thanks for the explanation. Can you nudge someone internally about the website spelling mistakes please!
Already done.
-g
Hi Geoff please clarify my understanding that with half the bass drivers and less of a cabinet volume that the frequency range cannot be the same between the 12-2 and the 12-3. This is exactly the same reasoning as the difference in specs between the 7-1, 7-2 and 7-6 and the pronounced difference in frequency response across the range when the drivers are the same! The 12-2 has less cabinet volume and 50% less bass drivers so how can Tge frequency response apply across two models?!?!
@Moxxey, I ain't done yet with this one!!
The following is written under my understanding that the drivers in -2 and -3 are the same, and each have an individual enclosure of the same size:
You can't add up frequency responses. Whether you have 1 or 2 (or 10) arrangements as above, the frequency response remains exactly the same - the two bass speakers will just play 3 dB louder than the single one. If we want to keep the frequency response of the entire speaker level, this needs to be compensated for in the crossover. Simplified, the end result is a speaker that has exactly the same frequency response, but can play louder...
Of course anyone is free to use the added bass headroom by cranking up the bass setting at the amp, effectively extending the bass response - but it's not natural sound anymore.
KingOfSnake: Hi Geoff please clarify my understanding that with half the bass drivers and less of a cabinet volume that the frequency range cannot be the same between the 12-2 and the 12-3. This is exactly the same reasoning as the difference in specs between the 7-1, 7-2 and 7-6 and the pronounced difference in frequency response across the range when the drivers are the same! The 12-2 has less cabinet volume and 50% less bass drivers so how can Tge frequency response apply across two models?!?! @Moxxey, I ain't done yet with this one!!
Hi,
I'll over-explain the basics - just to make sure that we're all on the same page...
Generally, a frequency range (sometimes called "bandwidth") measurement of any product (B&O or another brand, a loudspeaker or something else) is performed by
So, if you take a look at the technical spec's for a B&O loudspeaker, you'll see that we get the reference level by doing an average of the magnitude response from 200 Hz - 2 kHz, and the threshold (as defined above) is 10 dB below that average.
So far so good.
So, there's at least one thing left to discuss: How loud was the signal playing when we did the measurement? This is a VERY important question.
Consider, for example, an extreme (maybe even silly) case. I can take a single 1" tweeter and pre-filter its signal so that it has an on-axis magnitude response that is laser-flat from 20 Hz to 20 kHz. All I need to do is to boost the low frequencies A LOT before I send them to the power amp. However, there is a restriction here - I can't turn up the level to be very loud, otherwise the tweeter will either (a) distort, (b) break or (c - the most exciting, but improbable option) burst into flames (or at least release all of its magic smoke). However, if I do the tweeter's measurement VERY QUIETLY, I will get a frequency range measurement of 20 Hz - 20 kHz.
In other words, if you have control of the internal filtering of a loudspeaker, any loudspeaker can have any frequency range if you measure quietly enough. However, if you do the measurement at a louder listening level, then you get a different result.
AH HAH! I hear you think... So you're CHEATING! And the answer to this is: NO we're not.
The frequency range of all BeoLab loudspeakers are measured at the same level - so they are directly comparable with each other. In addition, this level is not artificially lowered (so that we make the frequency range results look better) - it's done at a typical listening level (sorry - I don't have the exact number in SPL, weighting, distance-of-the-microphone-to-speaker-when-doing-the-measurement, acoustic conditions, etc. etc...).
So this means that, at a typical listening level, you get the frequency range stated, however, this does not mean that you will have the same frequency range at all listening levels. That would be impossible - you can't get the same maximum sound pressure at 20 Hz level from a BeoSound 8 and a BeoLab 5 (that can be seen in the "Bass Capability" spec's of the various loudspeakers on the website. Remember that ABL is a two-faced solution. It means that we can boost the bass in a small speaker, but we have to pull back on the bass as you turn up the volume (the explanation of ABL on the BeoSound 8 page describes this pretty well, I think).
Specific to your question: Since they are physically different, the tunings of the BeoLab 12-3 and BeoLab 12-2 must also be different to make them sound the same. For example, since the 12-3 has two woofers and the 12-2 has one, we boost the signal sent to the 12-2's woofer more to make it sound the same as if there were two woofers as in the 12-3. However, one woofer can't play as loudly as two, so the ABL will also have to behave differently to protect the loudspeakers. The result is, at a typical, lower listening level, you get (roughly) the same frequency range, but the bigger speaker can play low frequencies louder than the smaller speaker (you can also see this by comparing their Bass Capability data.
Another example is a case where you have a system (i.e. a BeoPlay V1) that has an auto-loudness function. At one volume level, you get a given frequency response. However, at lower volume levels, you are applying a bass and treble boost (on the V1, the amounts of these boosts are user-tunable in the menus). So, you are "artificially" extending the frequency range at lower listening levels.
An analogy is to compare cars by looking at horsepower. I can say that Car "A" has a maximum of 100 HP, and Car "B" has a maximum of 200 HP, therefore I should buy Car "B" if horsepower is my only criterion for choosing. However, if Car "A" gives me 100 HP at all engine speeds (in RPM) and Car "B" gives me 50 HP at all engine speeds except at precisely 6500 RPM where it suddenly jumps to 200 HP, then perhaps looking only that one number isn't the smartest way to choose my car. In fact, you can't use that one maximum HP rating to make any decisions about how the cars behave - it's simply not enough information to be useful when you're driving to work.
I hope that this clarifies the confusion (without raising additional suspicions). If something I've said there doesn't make sense, please let me know and I'll give it another shot.
Cheers-geoff
BTW: To be fair, there are more things left to discuss. For example, (1) What was the signal used to make the measurement? (2) What was the crest factor of the signal used to make the measurement? (3) How hot was the speaker when you started the measurement? (4) How hot was the speaker when you finished the measurement? (5) What is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow? (6) Why is a mouse when it spins? (7) What is the height of Mount Everest? (7a) Do you consider this to be sufficient?
I'll stop now...
Excellent explanation - my only concern (for you) is that you have now laid yourself wide open to a myriad of other questions!
Ban boring signatures!
bsantini:Geoff: Sorry to jump in and detour this thread, but can you point us to a contact/email point to get specific answers to technical questions on what specifically type of audio formats and exactly how they're handled on the BS5/BM5? I can't seem to get the type of specific answer i desire locally here in the states?
Sorry to jump in and detour this thread, but can you point us to a contact/email point to get specific answers to technical questions on what specifically type of audio formats and exactly how they're handled on the BS5/BM5? I can't seem to get the type of specific answer i desire locally here in the states?
Hi Barry,
This issue has come up in another thread - I'm working on it. More info to come - but I can't promise when. Sorry.
Cheers
geoffmartin:Hi Barry, This issue has come up in another thread - I'm working on it. More info to come - but I can't promise when. Sorry. Cheers -geoff
tournedos: You can't add up frequency responses. Whether you have 1 or 2 (or 10) arrangements as above, the frequency response remains exactly the same - the two bass speakers will just play 3 dB louder than the single one. If we want to keep the frequency response of the entire speaker level, this needs to be compensated for in the crossover. Simplified, the end result is a speaker that has exactly the same frequency response, but can play louder...
This is basically true - except for a couple of minor details. But to be picky...
If the distance between you and the loudspeaker is less than the critical distance of the room...
If the distance between you and the loudspeaker is greater than the critical distance of the room...
If the diameter of the drivers or the size of the thing on which they're mounted is on the order of the wavelength of the frequency in question, then the points above may or may not be true, due to other issues like directivity and diffraction, for example.
However, it will certainly be louder... at some frequencies... in some listening positions...
Hi ll, after a few agonising weeks I have decided that the lab 12-3 is just not good enough for my music room. Has anyone ever returned an item?
On Saturday my friends said can you turn the music up and I said embarrassingly no they will not go any higher, I think I will get some KEF XQ40's and run them from the 9300.
So but I cannot justify these speakers cost we they don't deliver.
Ho, It is very awkward !
Is it because the light of the speaker becomes orange, or because you're at the max. volume of the BeoCenter ?
Maybe these speakers are really dedicated to TV front and surround sound and not for classic hifi use.
It's very strange, indeed...
Hi there
i think maybe its because they cannot play loud music, when any form of bass appears (moderm dance music) they do not like the bass.I am quite sad by it as they are lovely to look at but yes they should be a TV speaker not for Hifi.
the beocenter is not at Max.
I will call the shop in a little while to see what my options are.i am thinking of running some Kef speakers from the amp onm the beocenter as they can be Biwired and should produce some good sound.
Dissapointed.
And what about the addition of a BeoLab 11 or maybe a BeoLab 2 ?
It could be a good option to add bass to the BL12...
Hi Steph.
I did think about that but the lab2 is to slow for music and the question is "should i have to buy a sub to compliment the speakers"I am really sad that i need to take them back, so who has some ideas for what i can put in their place
Seanie that's one heck of a lot of money to spend on a loudspeaker that won't play music loud - damn! It would really make me scared to buy into B&O speaker systems if that's what they are like? I'm really not keen on the design of the BL12 anyway - I saw them the other week and the design wasn't for me.
The BL3 looks like a proper speaker - would that not suit you better?
Steph, the poor guy's spent nearly on £3000 on a pair of loudspeakers, he shouldn't have to pay another £2000 just to get a decent sound!
You have the BL6000 and BL8000 with the wall bracket...
Paul W: Seanie that's one heck of a lot of money to spend on a loudspeaker that won't play music loud - damn! It would really make me scared to buy into B&O speaker systems if that's what they are like? I'm really not keen on the design of the BL12 anyway - I saw them the other week and the design wasn't for me. The BL3 looks like a proper speaker - would that not suit you better?
not sure about the lab3 im sure they are the same sort of power as the lab 12.
And yes they are effectivly lab 6000's on the wall.
Seanie, I still think you should give the BL3's a try! Moxxey has them and he is incredibly impressed with the sound from them. Having seen them many times, they look like capable tough little speakers!
Paul W: Steph, the poor guy's spent nearly on £3000 on a pair of loudspeakers, he shouldn't have to pay another £2000 just to get a decent sound!
thanks for the support, the lab 3 frequency range is now as good as the 12's, i dont think anything will compare to my lab 9's and there is no way i can have a set of those in every room :)
Seanie to heck with frequency responses and all the jargon, LET YOUR EARS do the deciding! It's the human side that counts, not what a graph says!