ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
http://az498215.vo.msecnd.net/static/files/annual_reports/BO_AR14-15_UK.pdf
Stock is falling...
Livingroom: BL3, BL11, BV11-46 Kitchen: Beosound 1 GVA, Beocom 2 Bathroom: M3 Homeoffice: M3, Beocom 2 Library: Beosound Emerge, Beocom 6000 Bedroom: M5, Essence remote Travel: Beoplay E8 2.0, Beoplay EQ, Beoplay Earset
What surprised me is that around 50% of revenue is from TVs and only 18% speakers.
B&O play is now 25% which shows the increasing importance of this new brand.
What is the las 7%?
Ramasjang: What is the las 7%?
TV is 47%, speakers 18%, play 25%, audio 5%, "other" 5%.
I guess "other" is ICE power etc
Tvs is a HUGE percentage. Now we can see their importance for B&O. I think we'll be seeing more aded to their TV portfolio :) Well done PLAY!
Raeuber:Actually stock has fallen 13,11%, only today.
Probably investors that want to take home their profit, since there will be no dividends paid out. During this year the Stock have increased some 48%.
Paul W: Tvs is a HUGE percentage. Now we can see their importance for B&O. I think we'll be seeing more aded to their TV portfolio :) Well done PLAY!
V1 TVs are included in the TV segment.
Yes, which means that there really will be a replacement for the V1 :) With OLED from LG becoming affordable (£1500), it can only be a matter of time before this appears in a BV. Viewing angles compared to LCD is incredible!
Paul W: Yes, which means that there really will be a replacement for the V1 :) With OLED from LG becoming affordable (£1500), it can only be a matter of time before this appears in a BV. Viewing angles compared to LCD is incredible!
Let's hope so!
Listened to the webcast where Tue gave a presentation, and I made the following notes (this is how I perceived what Tue presented):
ICE power put out for sale.
Selling ICEpower? After a subsidiary partner inventing it and being bought-out by B&O?
I always thought that ICEpower was going to be a major growth area, with so much use by other companies that there was a marketing opportunity along the lines of 'ICEpower Inside' or 'B&O Inside', but what do I know?
Graham
vikinger: I always thought that ICEpower was going to be a major growth area, with so much use by other companies that there was a marketing opportunity along the lines of 'ICEpower Inside' or 'B&O Inside', but what do I know? Graham
I think you are still going to be right vikinger..They may well do something along those lines in the same way as with the auto division. The report talks of licensing "by Bang &Olufsen" or by B&O play". That would work for ICE post sale.
The share price has fallen faster than a lump of rock down a well...
It was 71.00 a few days ago - now trading at 45.80 !!!
52 week low was 30.20.
B&O Share Values certainly know how to jump around don't they!
Lee
It seems that the true values of B&O must be found somewhere else than in the shares ;-O
MM
There is a tv - and there is a BV
44.70.... still falling.
If they hit 30 again I'm going to buy a load !!!
9 LEE:44.70.... still falling. If they hit 30 again I'm going to buy a load !!!
This is not looking good. The results are a disaster and the stock tumbled 14% yesterday. I wonder how long B&O will be able to survive. In the last 5 years there is absolutely no improvements to be seen in the financial results. For me to most disappointing item is the Moment, this could have been the turning point but this does not look like a successful product.
Good luck B&O and I hope this company can survive
Agree with Raeven - the results are a disaster: no improvements over the last 5 years - they have lost approx. 1.5 million kroner pr day. If you remove the profit from the car sound sale, they seem to have lost approx. half a billion kroner according to the report.
Wonder what choices Carnegie have put on the table for Tue... this is not looking good. Hope the -20% on BeoPlay through the survey campaign isn't a sign of desperation...
Roger
.....with no regrets Bye Bye BeoBoy68
M😸M
He's running it like a McKinsey trained CEO would. Balance sheets, strategies and business models - that's all he can work with. I feel sorry for the guy - but his work ethic is unquestionable and he's basically flying a plane with no fuel
If he gets all sentimental the company goes bust - they don't have time to rebuild the romance of the brand, it's about numbers.. quickly. Get the money in now, save the company, then take stock and regroup. All this whilst spending as little as possible on R&D and actually running the business.
Make it from scratch in Denmark, add say 40% to the retail price - will that increase or decrease sales? It'll make 10% of the global customer base delighted, then the smile will be wiped off their faces when the company goes into liquidation.
Maybe in the future you could have Bang & Olufsen as the 'Middle' brand, Play as the 'Budget' brand, then some kind of hand-made 'Top' brand solely produced in Denmark. 'B&O Special Projects' springs to mind. Let the Millionaires and Celebrities buy into something low-volume and prestigious, made by craftsmen in a special area of the factory. A BeoSound Moment in Titanium and Walnut with 'extra personalised' levels of Software just for them. Rich people pay a lot of money to be individual....
Anyway, I'm jumping the gun - but before we all call Tue Mantoni crap just take a minute to think about the cards he's been dealt. The big focus on China was a mistake for me though - I always said your home market is the most important if you want to build a long-term business.
Agree with you on most things, Lee.
Tue has a tough job to do - I can't think of anyone, that could do it better under these circumstances.
I am not quite sure however, that the Chinese focus was/is a mistake, but it is a risky one for sure.
if it works as expected, it pays off, really pays off.
I am not able to make any suggestions to how the company should be run - I am certainly not skilled for that.
But - as you - I do think, that a 'romantic return' to the 'good old times' of manufacturing all B&O in Struer would be crusial.
The move to the Czech Republik was a decision of the former CEO's - and a wise one I think.
That is nothing new, that Tue 'invented' - he just finished it.
I still believe in a future for B&O - and will keep on sending my positive thoughts to the guys in Struer.
I buy what I need and can afford - there is no other A/V company, that can match B&O from an overall point of view.
*Sigh*.
I have a feeling that everyone on this forum probably hates me and my long opinions by now. But *aside* from our many good friends here who own and operate boutiques or work for B&O, I honestly wouldn't care if the company as it is now, ceased to exist today. Bang and Olufsen have a proud history, but it was a history that was based in fine Danish craftsmanship *and* the burgeoning realm of audio and later video HiFi and lifestyle product.
But... the world has matured around them. Linked audio systems are no longer the realm of spaghetti in your walls, beolink converters, and beautiful round things you need to stick somewhere to receive IR signals. *Everyone* does linking now and does it slightly less seamlessly at low cost, or equal or more seamlessly at higher costs as well as without wires. Millemissen once brought up a point that B&O fully matured in an era where we still had life in electronics. Spinning discs, reel to reel, cassette tapes, records... All devices that B&O could build futuristic, interlinked, and absolutely gorgeous hardware around. But we don't live in a hardware based world anymore outside of speakers. B&O are not McIntosh, so they can't capitalize on the "traditional" HiFi dollars that go to high end separates... Amplifiers, tuners, turntables, and every possible thing McIntosh can think of to build into their customer's "wall of Mac".
Another issue brought up here before... I don't really understand, nor will I ever, the defense that we should "go easy" on B&O about building products outside of Denmark because we need to be mindful of their ability to stay in business... Uhhhh you charge in the united states a WHOPPING $26,000.00 for a pair of BeoLab 5 you probably recouped the tooling and development costs on 5 years ago at least, and I don't even want to know how little they probably *actually* cost to make. And you are going to tell me that with ALL the profit that there probably is in these things, you can't continue to manufacture them in Denmark? Please... It's one thing when Sony or Panasonic start building in China and Mexico because of their market being one that drives the price of EVERYTHING to the bottom. But B&O doesn't play in this market! It's a lifestyle brand that charges whatever it wants for beautiful design, engineering and bragging rights. So if you take AWAY the Denmark based production, and you move it to Czech, or worse, China... Where's the bragging rights and desire to pay all that extra money for what ALL THE OTHER guys are doing? I mean at least McIntosh is still 99 percent made in the USA. Not only that, the other thing no one here ever cares or talks about is the guilt associated with knowing that those manufacturing jobs in Denmark were likely lost.
I *understand* the need to expand where possible. But this is why B&O PLAY line is manufactured in China. The MAIN B&O brand should never have adopted this "build it cheap, stack em deep" mentality.
The TVs? Of course most of their revenue comes from the TVs. You're talking about 10-12000.00 as an entry price for a television that probably has a display module that costs a mere fraction of that. More power to them for raking in the profits on TVs in market where NO ONE ELSE is making ANY money on them, but unfortunately there is equal or better PQ out there for less, or far less so they can't rely on TV sales alone.
I think the last hurrah for classic B&O was probably the BeoLab 18 and the BeoLab 19. And that's only because that's really based upon a heritage product that *again*, comes from B&O's most fruitful and innovative, EXCITING and INSPIRING period of the early 1990s. Beolink 7000... BeoLab Penta... BeoLab 8000... Beosystem 7000.... BeoCenter 9500... Beocenter 2500...Beovision Avant (the -real- Avant). All of these are from this era and evolutions of the era leading up to it. Not to mention icons of the times before that... Beomaster 8000, Beovox MS150, Beogram 4000 etc. Oh and hey, all of those were made in Denmark, too. And what else do they all have in common? I can't get parts for a single one of those products anymore with the exception of the BL8000.
But you do you B&O... I'll keep buying and flipping my beloved BeoLab 5s until they get old enough and the prices get cheap enough that I don't feel silly keeping a pair for myself... and cherish my BC9500 and Penta IIIs and another BeoLink 7000 when i get around to it as long as I can.
Playdrv4me:*Sigh*. I have a feeling that everyone on this forum probably hates me and my long opinions by now. But *aside* from our many good friends here who own and operate boutiques or work for B&O, I honestly wouldn't care if the company as it is now, ceased to exist today. Bang and Olufsen have a proud history, but it was a history that was based in fine Danish craftsmanship *and* the burgeoning realm of audio and later video HiFi and lifestyle product. But... the world has matured around them. Linked audio systems are no longer the realm of spaghetti in your walls, beolink converters, and beautiful round things you need to stick somewhere to receive IR signals. *Everyone* does linking now and does it slightly less seamlessly at low cost, or equal or more seamlessly at higher costs as well as without wires. Millemissen once brought up a point that B&O fully matured in an era where we still had life in electronics. Spinning discs, reel to reel, cassette tapes, records... All devices that B&O could build futuristic, interlinked, and absolutely gorgeous hardware around. But we don't live in a hardware based world anymore outside of speakers. B&O are not McIntosh, so they can't capitalize on the "traditional" HiFi dollars that go to high end separates... Amplifiers, tuners, turntables, and every possible thing McIntosh can think of to build into their customer's "wall of Mac". Another issue brought up here before... I don't really understand, nor will I ever, the defense that we should "go easy" on B&O about building products outside of Denmark because we need to be mindful of their ability to stay in business... Uhhhh you charge in the united states a WHOPPING $26,000.00 for a pair of BeoLab 5 you probably recouped the tooling and development costs on 5 years ago at least, and I don't even want to know how little they probably *actually* cost to make. And you are going to tell me that with ALL the profit that there probably is in these things, you can't continue to manufacture them in Denmark? Please... It's one thing when Sony or Panasonic start building in China and Mexico because of their market being one that drives the price of EVERYTHING to the bottom. But B&O doesn't play in this market! It's a lifestyle brand that charges whatever it wants for beautiful design, engineering and bragging rights. So if you take AWAY the Denmark based production, and you move it to Czech, or worse, China... Where's the bragging rights and desire to pay all that extra money for what ALL THE OTHER guys are doing? I mean at least McIntosh is still 99 percent made in the USA. Not only that, the other thing no one here ever cares or talks about is the guilt associated with knowing that those manufacturing jobs in Denmark were likely lost. I *understand* the need to expand where possible. But this is why B&O PLAY line is manufactured in China. The MAIN B&O brand should never have adopted this "build it cheap, stack em deep" mentality. The TVs? Of course most of their revenue comes from the TVs. You're talking about 10-12000.00 as an entry price for a television that probably has a display module that costs a mere fraction of that. More power to them for raking in the profits on TVs in market where NO ONE ELSE is making ANY money on them, but unfortunately there is equal or better PQ out there for less, or far less so they can't rely on TV sales alone. I think the last hurrah for classic B&O was probably the BeoLab 18 and the BeoLab 19. And that's only because that's really based upon a heritage product that *again*, comes from B&O's most fruitful and innovative, EXCITING and INSPIRING period of the early 1990s. Beolink 7000... BeoLab Penta... BeoLab 8000... Beosystem 7000.... BeoCenter 9500... Beocenter 2500...Beovision Avant (the -real- Avant). All of these are from this era and evolutions of the era leading up to it. Not to mention icons of the times before that... Beomaster 8000, Beovox MS150, Beogram 4000 etc. Oh and hey, all of those were made in Denmark, too. And what else do they all have in common? I can't get parts for a single one of those products anymore with the exception of the BL8000. But you do you B&O... I'll keep buying and flipping my beloved BeoLab 5s until they get old enough and the prices get cheap enough that I don't feel silly keeping a pair for myself... and cherish my BC9500 and Penta IIIs and another BeoLink 7000 when i get around to it as long as I can.
Playdrv4me is right in that the age of electronics 'with life' is over, as is also the need to disguise bulky CRTs in elegant cases.
B&O is making massive losses, reduced only by the sale and licensing of the family silver, i.e. The Auto business and ICEpower, and whatever else is to come.
There is a dawning in the West that things have gone too far with outsourcing to China, and cost savings/ increased profits are reducing as China itself goes into recession and faces wage inflation. B&O needs to survive long enough for western products built in the west to come back into favour, but it may shrink drastically in the process.
Frankly, I do not care much where products are made.
Apples design and built quality is excellent and its coming from China, designed in Denmark is sufficient to me.
Problem is that complexity increased tenfolds over the last few years. They built a product to support spotify and deezer, by the time its out Apple Music pops up and is full force in the market.
They can not win this.
To me, first time in long I thought the Beolit 15 they got right. Instead of supporting Wifi which wasn't working too well they choose bluetooth which is independent of device brand or tight to old obsolete airplay chipsets.
The new A9, with updated chipset I also have some confidence in. Same for Essence.
The Moment on the other hand, am not sure what they were thinking, that is just asking for trouble, too complicated and too "niche" for many unless your looking for a beefed up deezer/spotify streamer
jk1002: The Moment on the other hand, am not sure what they were thinking, that is just asking for trouble, too complicated and too "niche" for many unless your looking for a beefed up deezer/spotify streamer.
The Moment on the other hand, am not sure what they were thinking, that is just asking for trouble, too complicated and too "niche" for many unless your looking for a beefed up deezer/spotify streamer.
Good point. Maybe I am not a typical customer, but who wants to commit to streaming services at maybe £10 per month each, knowing that they will lose all content if they stop subscribing? You are better off finding web radio services that suit your taste, and pay for CD's or individual downloads of music you intend to keep. B&O may make a mistake if they only cater for subscription streaming in the long term.
Truly agree with Vikinger on this one. I'd rather buy and own my music from iTunes rather than just stream and then lose it when I stop paying. I've learnt the hard way from Sky. Years ago my Sky+ box contained a brilliant collection. The minute that I stopped subscribing to Sky I have ZERO access to the material on my Sky box which I believe I paid for at the time! Sky want me to pay £10 every month just to access my old recordings!
B&O got off to a bad start when they released "computer" products such as BeoMedia 1 and BeoMaster 5, and they never got their SW working as good as it could - the solution to this challenge is perhaps not to terminate the product and replace it with a new product starting all over again.
The market has dropped physical media, both for audio and video content - so handling streaming is what the market is all about today.
And buying music on iTunes is not an alternative for me - you do not actually own the music. Just look into who owns your music collection when you pass away - not your kids, but iTunes.
vikinger:Good point. Maybe I am not a typical customer, but who wants to commit to streaming services at maybe £10 per month each, knowing that they will lose all content if they stop subscribing?
Opinion on this thread stays controversial. On the one side we speak about a service as Apple Music what perhaps will be an overwhelming success because it has the Apple brand on it, but lets not forget its also not free if you compare it to Deezer or Spotify.
Paul W:I'd rather buy and own my music from iTunes rather than just stream
Thats the beauty of their new music system in my opinion, you are free to use a (or maybe in future any) streaming service or use a DLNA system if you still want to buy records. I think B&O found the right solution with the Moment, but it made a bad start. They delivered a new music system who was not completed at launch. With the launch of multiroom, opinions from customers and dealers are already changed now if they look into the possibilities now and in future.
I'm no fortuneteller, but I hope B&O will survive. It is one of the few manufacturers providing a very well sounding device in a solid package and not a cheap plastic case. This manufacturer gives me the feeling of the old days when HiFi had a real surrounding around their electronics and the feeling you had a quality product in your hands. Is it now made in China, Czech or Denmark... for me it does not matter, there always will be a person eating his sandwich from it.
"Believe nothing you read and only half of what you see, let your ears tell you the truth."
vikinger: [Good point. Maybe I am not a typical customer, but who wants to commit to streaming services at maybe £10 per month each, knowing that they will lose all content if they stop subscribing? You are better off finding web radio services that suit your taste, and pay for CD's or individual downloads of music you intend to keep. B&O may make a mistake if they only cater for subscription streaming in the long term. Graham
[Good point. Maybe I am not a typical customer, but who wants to commit to streaming services at maybe £10 per month each, knowing that they will lose all content if they stop subscribing? You are better off finding web radio services that suit your taste, and pay for CD's or individual downloads of music you intend to keep. B&O may make a mistake if they only cater for subscription streaming in the long term.
A budget of 10£ a month for buying cd's!
Not a large collection ;-)
I have many cd's on my shelf just collecting dust - wish I could convert some these to the fee, that I have to pay for streaming all the new music that I don't want to miss.
It's no wonder that the B&O stock is falling and falling and falling...
You can not argue with a customers that still uses his brain why he should pay 4-5times the price for a "Made in Czech" / "Made in China" product. There's just one word for a high end company that outsources the manufacturing: Greed!For a luxury / high end brand it is ESSENTIAL to manufacture in its home country. No matter if there are customers that don't care because there are many of them who DO care about the origin of this product. Regarding the Beosound Moment: It still looks like they took a cheap chinese Android tablet and put it into a not very well designed aluminium bed. This combined with the software problems (which they have since the Beomedia 1 etc. ...) nobody has to wonder why stock's falling.Bang & Olufsen has big problems and seeing that the CEO only does the same thing as others: Outsourcing and layoffs makes me sad! It's no wonder that they are struggling!A little light at the end of the tunnel was the story of the "A9 with a little bonus"... I wish B&O all the best. I should convince my family that I need to work 5 days a week in Struer to fix things at B&O. There are just a few simple but hard tasks which had to be solved! :)
jk1002: Frankly, I do not care much where products are made. Apples design and built quality is excellent and its coming from China, designed in Denmark is sufficient to me.
Apple builds commodity products. Yes even Apple, to a *pricepoint* for a market.
B&O builds a luxury product and expects luxury prices for that product. If you don't care that they move production where its cheaper, when they charge as much as they do, then why bother spending all the extra in the first place when a paltry commodity product from anyone could do the same job. B&O sells itself on lifestyle, people who buy into that lifestyle care about where the product is manufactured when they pay that much extra. I do not understand why this is such a difficult concept for me to get across when I bring it up, and then Apple is always brought in as a counterpoint. Apple builds 500.00 smartphones and iPads that can do a *LOT* of what the product B&O builds as a *$2500.00* music hub can do. There's no comparison.
Someone in one of these threads here or on another A/V forum once made a very good point. Instead of looking at the commodity market and using them as a comparison point, let's turn that argument on its head and say... Would you buy a Rolex if Rolex moved manufacturing to China? No sane person I know would answer that as "Yes" unless they are just trying to troll an argument. B&O builds electronic products that cost way more in some cases than a lot of Rolex watches. No excuse.