ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
rob08: Playdrv4me: *Sigh*. I have a feeling that everyone on this forum probably hates me and my long opinions by now. But *aside* from our many good friends here who own and operate boutiques or work for B&O, I honestly wouldn't care if the company as it is now, ceased to exist today. Bang and Olufsen have a proud history, but it was a history that was based in fine Danish craftsmanship *and* the burgeoning realm of audio and later video HiFi and lifestyle product. But... the world has matured around them. Linked audio systems are no longer the realm of spaghetti in your walls, beolink converters, and beautiful round things you need to stick somewhere to receive IR signals. *Everyone* does linking now and does it slightly less seamlessly at low cost, or equal or more seamlessly at higher costs as well as without wires. Millemissen once brought up a point that B&O fully matured in an era where we still had life in electronics. Spinning discs, reel to reel, cassette tapes, records... All devices that B&O could build futuristic, interlinked, and absolutely gorgeous hardware around. But we don't live in a hardware based world anymore outside of speakers. B&O are not McIntosh, so they can't capitalize on the "traditional" HiFi dollars that go to high end separates... Amplifiers, tuners, turntables, and every possible thing McIntosh can think of to build into their customer's "wall of Mac". Another issue brought up here before... I don't really understand, nor will I ever, the defense that we should "go easy" on B&O about building products outside of Denmark because we need to be mindful of their ability to stay in business... Uhhhh you charge in the united states a WHOPPING $26,000.00 for a pair of BeoLab 5 you probably recouped the tooling and development costs on 5 years ago at least, and I don't even want to know how little they probably *actually* cost to make. And you are going to tell me that with ALL the profit that there probably is in these things, you can't continue to manufacture them in Denmark? Please... It's one thing when Sony or Panasonic start building in China and Mexico because of their market being one that drives the price of EVERYTHING to the bottom. But B&O doesn't play in this market! It's a lifestyle brand that charges whatever it wants for beautiful design, engineering and bragging rights. So if you take AWAY the Denmark based production, and you move it to Czech, or worse, China... Where's the bragging rights and desire to pay all that extra money for what ALL THE OTHER guys are doing? I mean at least McIntosh is still 99 percent made in the USA. Not only that, the other thing no one here ever cares or talks about is the guilt associated with knowing that those manufacturing jobs in Denmark were likely lost. I *understand* the need to expand where possible. But this is why B&O PLAY line is manufactured in China. The MAIN B&O brand should never have adopted this "build it cheap, stack em deep" mentality. The TVs? Of course most of their revenue comes from the TVs. You're talking about 10-12000.00 as an entry price for a television that probably has a display module that costs a mere fraction of that. More power to them for raking in the profits on TVs in market where NO ONE ELSE is making ANY money on them, but unfortunately there is equal or better PQ out there for less, or far less so they can't rely on TV sales alone. I think the last hurrah for classic B&O was probably the BeoLab 18 and the BeoLab 19. And that's only because that's really based upon a heritage product that *again*, comes from B&O's most fruitful and innovative, EXCITING and INSPIRING period of the early 1990s. Beolink 7000... BeoLab Penta... BeoLab 8000... Beosystem 7000.... BeoCenter 9500... Beocenter 2500...Beovision Avant (the -real- Avant). All of these are from this era and evolutions of the era leading up to it. Not to mention icons of the times before that... Beomaster 8000, Beovox MS150, Beogram 4000 etc. Oh and hey, all of those were made in Denmark, too. And what else do they all have in common? I can't get parts for a single one of those products anymore with the exception of the BL8000. But you do you B&O... I'll keep buying and flipping my beloved BeoLab 5s until they get old enough and the prices get cheap enough that I don't feel silly keeping a pair for myself... and cherish my BC9500 and Penta IIIs and another BeoLink 7000 when i get around to it as long as I can. You mention profits a lot in the thread about B&O annual report which shows losses. Losses which they've made the last few years. While no doubt they have decent gross margins on some products, they obviously don't sell enough volume of these products to actually show a profit on the whole. Hence, all the discussion of B&O poor financial position.
Playdrv4me: *Sigh*. I have a feeling that everyone on this forum probably hates me and my long opinions by now. But *aside* from our many good friends here who own and operate boutiques or work for B&O, I honestly wouldn't care if the company as it is now, ceased to exist today. Bang and Olufsen have a proud history, but it was a history that was based in fine Danish craftsmanship *and* the burgeoning realm of audio and later video HiFi and lifestyle product. But... the world has matured around them. Linked audio systems are no longer the realm of spaghetti in your walls, beolink converters, and beautiful round things you need to stick somewhere to receive IR signals. *Everyone* does linking now and does it slightly less seamlessly at low cost, or equal or more seamlessly at higher costs as well as without wires. Millemissen once brought up a point that B&O fully matured in an era where we still had life in electronics. Spinning discs, reel to reel, cassette tapes, records... All devices that B&O could build futuristic, interlinked, and absolutely gorgeous hardware around. But we don't live in a hardware based world anymore outside of speakers. B&O are not McIntosh, so they can't capitalize on the "traditional" HiFi dollars that go to high end separates... Amplifiers, tuners, turntables, and every possible thing McIntosh can think of to build into their customer's "wall of Mac". Another issue brought up here before... I don't really understand, nor will I ever, the defense that we should "go easy" on B&O about building products outside of Denmark because we need to be mindful of their ability to stay in business... Uhhhh you charge in the united states a WHOPPING $26,000.00 for a pair of BeoLab 5 you probably recouped the tooling and development costs on 5 years ago at least, and I don't even want to know how little they probably *actually* cost to make. And you are going to tell me that with ALL the profit that there probably is in these things, you can't continue to manufacture them in Denmark? Please... It's one thing when Sony or Panasonic start building in China and Mexico because of their market being one that drives the price of EVERYTHING to the bottom. But B&O doesn't play in this market! It's a lifestyle brand that charges whatever it wants for beautiful design, engineering and bragging rights. So if you take AWAY the Denmark based production, and you move it to Czech, or worse, China... Where's the bragging rights and desire to pay all that extra money for what ALL THE OTHER guys are doing? I mean at least McIntosh is still 99 percent made in the USA. Not only that, the other thing no one here ever cares or talks about is the guilt associated with knowing that those manufacturing jobs in Denmark were likely lost. I *understand* the need to expand where possible. But this is why B&O PLAY line is manufactured in China. The MAIN B&O brand should never have adopted this "build it cheap, stack em deep" mentality. The TVs? Of course most of their revenue comes from the TVs. You're talking about 10-12000.00 as an entry price for a television that probably has a display module that costs a mere fraction of that. More power to them for raking in the profits on TVs in market where NO ONE ELSE is making ANY money on them, but unfortunately there is equal or better PQ out there for less, or far less so they can't rely on TV sales alone. I think the last hurrah for classic B&O was probably the BeoLab 18 and the BeoLab 19. And that's only because that's really based upon a heritage product that *again*, comes from B&O's most fruitful and innovative, EXCITING and INSPIRING period of the early 1990s. Beolink 7000... BeoLab Penta... BeoLab 8000... Beosystem 7000.... BeoCenter 9500... Beocenter 2500...Beovision Avant (the -real- Avant). All of these are from this era and evolutions of the era leading up to it. Not to mention icons of the times before that... Beomaster 8000, Beovox MS150, Beogram 4000 etc. Oh and hey, all of those were made in Denmark, too. And what else do they all have in common? I can't get parts for a single one of those products anymore with the exception of the BL8000. But you do you B&O... I'll keep buying and flipping my beloved BeoLab 5s until they get old enough and the prices get cheap enough that I don't feel silly keeping a pair for myself... and cherish my BC9500 and Penta IIIs and another BeoLink 7000 when i get around to it as long as I can.
*Sigh*.
I have a feeling that everyone on this forum probably hates me and my long opinions by now. But *aside* from our many good friends here who own and operate boutiques or work for B&O, I honestly wouldn't care if the company as it is now, ceased to exist today. Bang and Olufsen have a proud history, but it was a history that was based in fine Danish craftsmanship *and* the burgeoning realm of audio and later video HiFi and lifestyle product.
But... the world has matured around them. Linked audio systems are no longer the realm of spaghetti in your walls, beolink converters, and beautiful round things you need to stick somewhere to receive IR signals. *Everyone* does linking now and does it slightly less seamlessly at low cost, or equal or more seamlessly at higher costs as well as without wires. Millemissen once brought up a point that B&O fully matured in an era where we still had life in electronics. Spinning discs, reel to reel, cassette tapes, records... All devices that B&O could build futuristic, interlinked, and absolutely gorgeous hardware around. But we don't live in a hardware based world anymore outside of speakers. B&O are not McIntosh, so they can't capitalize on the "traditional" HiFi dollars that go to high end separates... Amplifiers, tuners, turntables, and every possible thing McIntosh can think of to build into their customer's "wall of Mac".
Another issue brought up here before... I don't really understand, nor will I ever, the defense that we should "go easy" on B&O about building products outside of Denmark because we need to be mindful of their ability to stay in business... Uhhhh you charge in the united states a WHOPPING $26,000.00 for a pair of BeoLab 5 you probably recouped the tooling and development costs on 5 years ago at least, and I don't even want to know how little they probably *actually* cost to make. And you are going to tell me that with ALL the profit that there probably is in these things, you can't continue to manufacture them in Denmark? Please... It's one thing when Sony or Panasonic start building in China and Mexico because of their market being one that drives the price of EVERYTHING to the bottom. But B&O doesn't play in this market! It's a lifestyle brand that charges whatever it wants for beautiful design, engineering and bragging rights. So if you take AWAY the Denmark based production, and you move it to Czech, or worse, China... Where's the bragging rights and desire to pay all that extra money for what ALL THE OTHER guys are doing? I mean at least McIntosh is still 99 percent made in the USA. Not only that, the other thing no one here ever cares or talks about is the guilt associated with knowing that those manufacturing jobs in Denmark were likely lost.
I *understand* the need to expand where possible. But this is why B&O PLAY line is manufactured in China. The MAIN B&O brand should never have adopted this "build it cheap, stack em deep" mentality.
The TVs? Of course most of their revenue comes from the TVs. You're talking about 10-12000.00 as an entry price for a television that probably has a display module that costs a mere fraction of that. More power to them for raking in the profits on TVs in market where NO ONE ELSE is making ANY money on them, but unfortunately there is equal or better PQ out there for less, or far less so they can't rely on TV sales alone.
I think the last hurrah for classic B&O was probably the BeoLab 18 and the BeoLab 19. And that's only because that's really based upon a heritage product that *again*, comes from B&O's most fruitful and innovative, EXCITING and INSPIRING period of the early 1990s. Beolink 7000... BeoLab Penta... BeoLab 8000... Beosystem 7000.... BeoCenter 9500... Beocenter 2500...Beovision Avant (the -real- Avant). All of these are from this era and evolutions of the era leading up to it. Not to mention icons of the times before that... Beomaster 8000, Beovox MS150, Beogram 4000 etc. Oh and hey, all of those were made in Denmark, too. And what else do they all have in common? I can't get parts for a single one of those products anymore with the exception of the BL8000.
But you do you B&O... I'll keep buying and flipping my beloved BeoLab 5s until they get old enough and the prices get cheap enough that I don't feel silly keeping a pair for myself... and cherish my BC9500 and Penta IIIs and another BeoLink 7000 when i get around to it as long as I can.
You mention profits a lot in the thread about B&O annual report which shows losses. Losses which they've made the last few years. While no doubt they have decent gross margins on some products, they obviously don't sell enough volume of these products to actually show a profit on the whole. Hence, all the discussion of B&O poor financial position.
But that's not my fault as the customer. B&O were once perfectly profitable when they were building these other products right at home. If people aren't buying the product in the first place, charging the same amount and moving production to China or CZ is a bandaid and life support and nothing more. Eventually you have to rectify the situation of what ultimately brings the customer in the store. If they don't want to buy the product to begin with, you need to address your product line first. It doesn't change the amount of profit margin and that I expect that for that given profit margin I want the highest quality built in their home country with the tradition it was in the beginning.
And *therein* lies the hard question to answer. THAT is the nut B&O must crack. What the heck do people wanna buy these days that the value to them is such that they will pay the traditional price premium of a B&O product. What is the Beolink 7000, or Beocenter 2500, or Beogram 4000 of today? Or, should we face the possible reality that B&O's comfortable middle ground as it was in the past, between the Sonys and Panasonics, but below, the ultra HiFi separates like McIntosh, Bowers and Wilkins (who also have bent to the realities of China manufacturing but *never* in their top tier product lines), MBL and the like... Perhaps this market is just gone now in part because of the bottom end of the market *has* improved so much *and* because of the prolific nature of the digital media that these "bottom feeders" base all of their connected products on... The Apples, Sonos, and Denons of the world. I'm not trying to be doom and gloom about it, I'm just being a realist.
But you know what, B&O still has healthy product divisions with their really bustling automotive segment, iCEPower (though I think I read above that they spun this off?), and look what a modestly successful situation they've encountered with B&O PLAY. Again, I will probably get heat for this, but the traditional B&O HiFi brand maybe just has reached the end of its useful life. Instead of sliding and sliding and sliding downward and causing tarnish to the brand. At some point it may be better for them to focus on the successful divisions and begin to phase out the traditional B&O product line. Yes, what you basically just heard me say is that perhaps it's time for PLAY to become the mainstream. Maybe some of the more successful remaining B&O lines... 14, 20, 18, 19 etc could be transitioned to cheaper manufacturing but *with correspondingly cheaper price points* through derivatives sold in B&O PLAY just so it doesn't look like B&O is slashing prices. The A9 is for all intents and purposes a PERFECT example of this mentality. Let's be honest, other than having internet and bluetooth connectivity, the A9 is every bit a "regular" B&O product all day long. But it remains reasonably priced at the upper end of the commodity market as a PLAY product.
TWG: It's no wonder that the B&O stock is falling and falling and falling... You can not argue with a customers that still uses his brain why he should pay 4-5times the price for a "Made in Czech" / "Made in China" product. There's just one word for a high end company that outsources the manufacturing: Greed!For a luxury / high end brand it is ESSENTIAL to manufacture in its home country. No matter if there are customers that don't care because there are many of them who DO care about the origin of this product. Regarding the Beosound Moment: It still looks like they took a cheap chinese Android tablet and put it into a now very well designed aluminium bed. This combined with the software problems (which they have since the Beomedia 1 etc. ...) nobody has to wonder why stock's falling.Bang & Olufsen has big problems and seeing that the CEO only does the same thing as others: Outsourcing and layoffs makes me sad! It's no wonder that they are struggling!A little light at the end of the tunnel was the story of the "A9 with a little bonus"... I wish B&O all the best. I should convince my family that I need to work 5 days a week in Struer to fix things at B&O. There are just a few simple but hard tasks which had to be solved! :)
It's no wonder that the B&O stock is falling and falling and falling...
You can not argue with a customers that still uses his brain why he should pay 4-5times the price for a "Made in Czech" / "Made in China" product. There's just one word for a high end company that outsources the manufacturing: Greed!For a luxury / high end brand it is ESSENTIAL to manufacture in its home country. No matter if there are customers that don't care because there are many of them who DO care about the origin of this product. Regarding the Beosound Moment: It still looks like they took a cheap chinese Android tablet and put it into a now very well designed aluminium bed. This combined with the software problems (which they have since the Beomedia 1 etc. ...) nobody has to wonder why stock's falling.Bang & Olufsen has big problems and seeing that the CEO only does the same thing as others: Outsourcing and layoffs makes me sad! It's no wonder that they are struggling!A little light at the end of the tunnel was the story of the "A9 with a little bonus"... I wish B&O all the best. I should convince my family that I need to work 5 days a week in Struer to fix things at B&O. There are just a few simple but hard tasks which had to be solved! :)
Thank you.
@Playdrv4me: You're welcome!
Good afternoon,
Another possibility that B&O should try, if their finances allow, is to provide products with technology that is too expensive to be used in mass market products, but justified in high end products. For example, in the LG OLED article, there was mention of OLED panels that were too expensive to be used in mainstream televisions. Such panels, if they are reliable and provide top level performance, should be provided in B&O TVs. I think B&O did that for the BV7-55 Mk2 TV with the multiple zone LED backlight LCD screen.
Then, the higher price will be clearly justified by providing technology not available in mass market products because of cost.
Regards,
Jean
Playdrv4me:But that's not my fault as the customer. B&O were once perfectly profitable when they were building these other products right at home. If people aren't buying the product in the first place, charging the same amount and moving production to China or CZ is a bandaid and life support and nothing more. Eventually you have to rectify the situation of what ultimately brings the customer in the store. If they don't want to buy the product to begin with, you need to address your product line first. It doesn't change the amount of profit margin and that I expect that for that given profit margin I want the highest quality built in their home country with the tradition it was in the beginning. And *therein* lies the hard question to answer. THAT is the nut B&O must crack. What the heck do people wanna buy these days that the value to them is such that they will pay the traditional price premium of a B&O product. What is the Beolink 7000, or Beocenter 2500, or Beogram 4000 of today? Or, should we face the possible reality that B&O's comfortable middle ground as it was in the past, between the Sonys and Panasonics, but below, the ultra HiFi separates like McIntosh, Bowers and Wilkins (who also have bent to the realities of China manufacturing but *never* in their top tier product lines), MBL and the like... Perhaps this market is just gone now in part because of the bottom end of the market *has* improved so much *and* because of the prolific nature of the digital media that these "bottom feeders" base all of their connected products on... The Apples, Sonos, and Denons of the world. I'm not trying to be doom and gloom about it, I'm just being a realist. But you know what, B&O still has healthy product divisions with their really bustling automotive segment, iCEPower (though I think I read above that they spun this off?), and look what a modestly successful situation they've encountered with B&O PLAY. Again, I will probably get heat for this, but the traditional B&O HiFi brand maybe just has reached the end of its useful life. Instead of sliding and sliding and sliding downward and causing tarnish to the brand. At some point it may be better for them to focus on the successful divisions and begin to phase out the traditional B&O product line. Yes, what you basically just heard me say is that perhaps it's time for PLAY to become the mainstream. Maybe some of the more successful remaining B&O lines... 14, 20, 18, 19 etc could be transitioned to cheaper manufacturing but *with correspondingly cheaper price points* through derivatives sold in B&O PLAY just so it doesn't look like B&O is slashing prices. The A9 is for all intents and purposes a PERFECT example of this mentality. Let's be honest, other than having internet and bluetooth connectivity, the A9 is every bit a "regular" B&O product all day long. But it remains reasonably priced at the upper end of the commodity market as a PLAY product.
Playdrv4me is spot on. Totally agree and i'm sure that we all said the same thing in the winter of 2010 on this forum. Also agree with jvezina. If a LG TV can be OLED 55" at £1700 RRP why can't this state of the art screen find its way into a £7000 B&O TV???
We did say back in 2010 that B&O product should have continued to be made in Denmark. I don't believe that high end manufacturers financially 'need' to manufacture in China. It's simply greed and that's what has got them into this mess. Even small companies like IITTALA of Finland can still make and sell a £7 drinking glass or candle holder in their beautiful factory by hand in Finland. Now they are the companies that I truly respect and have true ethics!
Paul W:Playdrv4me is spot on. Totally agree and i'm sure that we all said the same thing in the winter of 2010 on this forum. Also agree with jvezina. If a LG TV can be OLED 55" at £1700 RRP why can't this state of the art screen find its way into a £7000 B&O TV??? We did say back in 2010 that B&O product should have continued to be made in Denmark. I don't believe that high end manufacturers financially 'need' to manufacture in China. It's simply greed and that's what has got them into this mess. Even small companies like IITTALA of Finland can still make and sell a £7 drinking glass or candle holder in their beautiful factory by hand in Finland. Now they are the companies that I truly respect and have true ethics!
So just to be clear, you want B&O to release a curved 1080P OLED screen?
You make me laugh or cry, I don’t know.
What I know is that you talk rubbish.
Panasonic have just released a 65" OLED curved screen 4K,
They have economic of scale, and they still charge 10000€
How on earth would B&O be able to use OLED without it costing a fortune.
You also strike me as blind when you say that an AVANT is 7000£ what are you doing on a B&O forum if you don’t see what you get for the Money?
It is too expensive, and it is not made in Denmark, hope no one in struer is listen to your business plan!
Beovision Harmony 77" 2nd Gen, Beolab 5, Beolab 17, Beosound 1, Beoplay M3, Beoplay Portal, Beoplay Earset, Beoliving Intelligence
Emil Jensen: Panasonic have just released a 65" OLED curved screen 4K, They have economic of scale, and they still charge 10000€