Beogram 4002 (MMC4000) vs. Beogram 8000 (MMC 20CL)

Hello!

I'm a very satisfied owner of a Beosound 3200 with 2   4 Beolab 3's, and am looking to add a Beogram to my collection.  I am currently trying to decide between a Beogram 4002 with an MMC4000, and a Beogram 8000 with MMC 20CL......

I slightly prefer the 70's look of the 4002, but don't have anything against the 80's flair of the 8000. Both record players cost exactly the same, 330€...  

A question to anyone out there that really knows their Beograms - is there an obvious choice here for the more desirable deck? Since I will be ordering the player online, I have no way of seeing it first hand..

 

On another note, is there any hope of connecting the Datalink to the 3200, or would that entail more adapters than it's worth?

 

thanks in advance for the tips,

James

Hi,

I have both Beograms and use them all the time. Functionally I don't think you can go wrong with either unless the BG8000 can do the Datalink stuff you are wanting. The BG4002 is belt driven and the BG8000 uses a magnetic induction drive (kind of how an electric meter works). My only caution, having restored a quite a few Beograms, is that for the price range you are purchasing one for it is highly likely the turntable will need some restoration work. Even my Beogram 4002 and 8002 that I purchased new (in 1977 and 1983, respectively) had to be restored and I had taken excellent care of them. At 330€ I would be surprised to find a Beogram 4002 or 8000 that is didn't require some sort of work to bring it to full functionality. To really appreciate them you will want a fully functional, restored turntable.

One other important thing to consider...
I don't believe the Beosound has a phone preamplifier section. That means neither the Beogram 4002 or 8000 will plug into the Beosound and produce sound. You will have to buy a phono preamplifier (RIAA amp) to go between the Beogram and the Beosound (aux input).  Those preamplifiers are readily available. There are some Beograms like the BG9500 that have built in phono amps.

sonavor

The MMC4000 is the equivalent of the MMC20EN and is a good cartridge though about 35 years old at best. I would make up my mind between the decks as I would always assume the cartridge is going to need fixing. The 4002 is better made than the 8000 - much less brittle plastic. Denis Carr used to demonstrate build quality of the 4002 by putting it on the ground and standing on it (don't try this at home these days!!) Do that with a new 8000 and it would splinter! Much easier to take apart the 4002 and, in my opinion, far better looking. I have had 4 8000 type decks and 4 4000 type decks - I now have no 8000s and 3 4000s!

Also pretty sure that the aux socket on the 3200 has not got Datalink - I might be wrong though.

Correct Peter, the 3200 does not implement datalink

thanks for the thoughtful responses to my little dilemma ;)

I just finalized the deal for the 4002.  The seller insists that the player is fully functional, and everything works as it should.. I'm a little nervous, but hopeful that it's a diamond in the rough.

 

I guess that leaves me the tasks of finding an appropriate Phono-Preamp, as well as looking into replacing the MMC... 

Can anyone recommend a sensible Preamp?

Any used cartridge types that are compatible with the 4002 that I should look out for online?? Or would new aftermarket make more sense?

and no adapter was ever created to attach a Datalink cable to a Masterlink cable???

 

I know my questions are pretty much multiplying with each post.. With a little luck though, this should round off the setup..

 

thanks again!

Pre amp : try a Cambridge audio 551p, great size, and no gimmicks.

Sounds Heavenly can do you the cables and phono amplifier. See what Lee in Newcastle says about cartridges - he has been trying a variety of mine!

 

Having sampled several of Peters carts and a good selection from Axel and a couple of originals here are my findings....

These are the carts I have tested...

An original MMC4 (B&O) - sounded overly sibilant probably hardened suspension.

A rebuilt to original spec MMC4 (Axel) - better than old MMC4 but not perfect with higher frequencies.

MMC2 rebuilt to original spec (Axel) - Best sounding of all the later MMC series I have heard. Clear midrange, beautiful bass, very occasional sibilance.

MMC2 with shibata on aluminium (Axel) - sounded nice but the midrange was a little muffled.

SP15 (B&O) unknown age... Stylus tip looked good under a microscope. - sounded OK until the suspension collapsed after a few days, Axel couldn't fix this one.

MMC20CL (NOS) - needed more tracking force than it should have, slight distortions in upper frequencies, I put this down with to it being un-used for all those years... The suspension had evidently gone stuff.

MMC20S with shibata on Aluminium (Axel) - this is a lovely sounding cartridge, very mellow and warm, although it doesn't have the extended high frequencies that I like.

MMC20CL - original B&O cart lovingly looked after by Peter. It has an amazing pristine tip on it and the suspension seems fine. I do get a hint of sibilance on this cartridge although upping the tracking force a little to 1.2g helps.

SMMC20EN (Soundsmith) - this cart is very different from the rest, it has a much more upfront presentation and the treble can be a little harsh and sibilant at times. Sounds best with modern recordings.

MMC20CL nude shibata on boron cantilever (Axel) - the best sounding cart of the lot by a good margin.. It has beautifully clear high frequencies without a hint of sibilance. It sounds best at 1.4-1.5g

I must say to my ears the earlier MMC20 series carts sound better than the later MMC1-5 ones.

And another interesting thing I found... All these carts are temperature sensitive. They all sound better between 20-25C. Below 17 you start to loose track-ability.

Hope this helps

Lee

To my ageing ears the Soundsmith sounds best. Then the CL (NOS). Then the SP12 !

I'd like to hear the other higher end soundsmith carts, the elliptical stylus isn't up to tracking all the tiniest nuances of the groove but I'm sure the finer stylus profiles will sound good. I'm only 29 years old so the higher frequencies still stand out to me ;-P

 

any (compatible!) cartridges where I would have an above average chance of finding an inexpensive one used online....??? So far 330 for the Beogram, 150 for cables and Phono-Preamp... I've already spent way more on the initial purchase than I was, uh, hoping, so once again, hoping perhaps naively to keep the costs down on the cartridge....

Not that I am aware of. I don't think anyone ever made compatible B&O carts except for SoundSmith (who still do) although they are pricey....

Try and find a cheap old B&O cart (the MMC20S would likely be the cheapest) and send it to Axel for a rebuild, he will be able to rebuild it to any spec you require, from the cheapest elliptical to the best line contact. 

In fact you can get a MMC20EN (nude elliptical) for 1245DKK (£120) from Radio & TV Eksperten in Denmark, that should put you on until you can afford to have it rebuilt by Axel (€99 for replacement bonded elliptical, €179 for line contact on sapphire cantilever (as MMC20CL))

Lee

It will be worth it if everything works and you can upgrade the cartridge later -initially I was really impressed with my Thorens and AT cartridge but have ended up going back to my BG1500 bought new when I started working in 1979. The Beograms are so much easier to setup - none of that messing around with alignment and everything.

I would like to buy a fully restored 4000 series deck or 8000 if I could find one - problem with eBay is that there is no guarantee it would work reliably and the trusted dealers dont seem to stock them

Lee, your summary of the cartridges was really useful - having gone back to my BG I'll look at getting the cartridge restored - I have a couple so can do without one for a few weeks.

Glad you found my findings useful Andrew. I plan on writing a more detailed analysis in a full article at some point... Just been very busy.

So much so that I am thinking of treating my deck to the 20CL you recommend - do you think it will be ok on BG1500 or would i better getting a 20EN for it? - I dont want to damage an expensive cartridge and could always wait until I get a better deck. To my ears the 20EN I currently have sounds a bit muffled when compared to the AT95E on the Thorens - I have no idea how old the cartridge is or how much its been played as I got it from another turntable.

Hi Andrew,

It will be absolutely fine on the BG1500, and that way when you decide to upgrade your deck you'll be able to just swap the cartridge over to the new one.

All the MMC20 series are identical internally it's just the cantilever and stylus profile that are different (except for the 20S which is the same except it's in a black casing instead of silver) so why don't you send the 20EN to Axel and have it rebuilt to the top of the line spec.

If it's sounding a little dull it's most likely the diamond that is worn and it will require a new suspension all of which will be fixed by Axel.

Tell him Lee sent you.

All the best,

Lee

Lee:

It will be absolutely fine on the BG1500, and that way when you decide to upgrade your deck you'll be able to just swap the cartridge over to the new one.

It will be fine as long as you are referring to a BG 1500 Type 57xx (1978-1980) and not the BG 1500 Type 52xx (1967-1973).

-sonavor

So, it has been a fairly difficult few days.. The seller became much less communicative once payment was in.  Unfortunately he also didn't heed my request to not spare money on packaging and shipping.  The box, which arrived today after 4 days of transit, looked like something out of a comic.  I fear my new Deck has been through hell and back this week.  

 

Anyway.  Although it has been through a lot, the Beogram 4002 seems to have survived. I plugged it into the NAD PP2 Phono Preamp I bought on ebay for 50€, which I then plugged into my dear 3200.

Everything seems to work, but I suspect I'll be investing a fair amount of time to restore this baby as well as I can...  

To functionality.. All buttons seem to work.. However:

1. when i press on the cartridge touches down a little too far into the record, so definitely not before the beginning of the song.

2. When the arms drive back to neutral position, it gives off a nice little whine.. probably needs to be greased..

3. the turntable wobbles a tiny bit, which produces slight acceleration and deceleration in the playback.

4. with each revolution there is a clicking noise coming from somewhere inside.. have yet to identify the source..

5. So far sound only comes out on one of my beolab 3 speakers... haven't had time to isolate if it is the preamp or the player.. or is there something I'm missing here??? (the DIN cord from the player is plugged into the RCA converting cable from sounds heavenly, plugged into the Preamp, plugged into a 4x RCA switch box, plugged into the 3200. Any tipps on how to start troubleshooting this?

Aesthetically:

1. the Lid comes down flush on the right front corner.. the left front corner is up about 2-3mm.

2. as you can see in the pictures its pretty dirty.. I'm a big fan of alcohol-free wipes - should be fine for everything but maybe the wood, right???

 

I'll throw in a few pics of the player in its current condition.. If anyone wants to see any particular part, please let me know! :)

 

thanks again for all the help so far!

heres a link to a google drive folder with all the pics I have taken so far...:

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1PgswF_6Ib5UHNoQlJFWmMtZ28

 

 

 

sonavor:

It will be fine as long as you are referring to a BG 1500 Type 57xx (1978-1980) and not the BG 1500 Type 52xx (1967-1973). -sonavor

Seen as Andrew is currently using a MMC20EN it must be the 57xx type.

Great, thanks Guys, will get one and look forward to the results. Beograms seem addictive

James521 - sorry to hear about your deck - there are many discussions on here about the problems you have as it seems nearly all of them will have this if not serviced - I had a speed problem with mine which fortunately you do not.

There are some great videos on YouTube by one of the members regarding how to setup the deck and also adjustments/fixes - they are by Beolover I think.

The grinding noise is most likely the arm shaft inside needing greasing - I had the same problem.

There is an adjustment you can make for the landing zone -this is detailed in a thread somewhere but I cant remember

Regarding lack of sound out of one channel it could be that one channel has failed in the cartridge - I think this is also a common problem - you can test if the wiring is ok by turning the volume right down and then inside the deck tap lightly on the contacts for the lead I think, you should then get a hum/buzz noise out of the speaker on one side and tap the other for the other channel - but let someone else confirm that as wouldn't want to be responsible for you electrocuting yourself - probably needs a diagram.

Anyway, you are in the right place for help and guidance on sorting out these issues and the service manual is on the site and worth the cost of membership.

Andrew

 

Oh its not all bad.. Just amazed how bad the packaging was.. especially in germany, where packaging things as neatly as possible is pretty much a national past time ;)

 

Superficially took the Deck apart and cleaned away most of the grime, and then put it back together.. Already an improvement in symmetry, clicking noise almost inaudible. 

Still haven't gotten to the bottom of the mono/stereo thing.. Just bought a brand new record, so its not that I was playing a mono record.. Tapped the inputs on the DIN/RCA converter, that obviously wasn't the problem either.. Not sure how to test if the problem is in the cartridge, internally in the Deck, or in the original DIN cable.... 

Overall the sound quality is O.K., but far from great..

I guess a new cartridge would be the next step, but that is something I'll have to try to get a deal on, because spending 400 on something pristine is out of the question, at this point. 

Anyone out there that has a compatible cartridge with a few miles on it that wants to get rid of it for a reasonable price? Does not have to be perfect, but at least non-record-damaging and able to produce adequate noise....

 

Overall fairly happy with the purchase, she cleaned up well!

 

 

Eliminate the pre-amp - try the Beogram directly into the 3200 - it will sound very quiet and tinny but see if you have both channels. If only one, it is either the cartridge or the DIN plug (check inside the plug), if stereo, you need to look at the wiring of the pre-amp.

very smart - but I already tried that yesterday, just forgot to mention it ;) - 

It remained mono... So it isn't the pre-amp :( .....

 

Just handed off my MMC4000 to a local Cartridge specialist in munich (the last remaining one), who will refurbish with an ellipsoid Diamond for 200€...

 

Pretty excited to hear how much of a difference that makes, and whether that solves the mono/stereo riddle..

 

thanks for the tipp though, sorry that I forgot to mention it!

 

Retipping it won't restore the failed channel but hopefully when the cartridge expert has it opened up he'll be able to re-attach any broken leads - assuming that's the problem.

Without sounding like I'm on commission from Axel (I assure you I'm not haha) he can sometimes repair dead channels. He's in Geseke - not sure how far away that is from Munich. He's much cheaper too - he'll fit a new elliptical on Alu cantilever for €99.

Ufff.  I was apparently a little too fixated on supporting local businesses today.. Knew in the back of my mind that it wasn't ultimately the cheapest price, but unfortunately wasn't aware that I was paying double (even though you were nice enough to mention it above).. Oh well, maybe I can try to get the cartridge back, but I doubt it.... my bad, need to focus ;)

In other news (on which I'll blame my cartridge fail (an emoticon smashing its head into a brick wall would be most suited here, right now), 2 used Beolab 3's in pretty darn good condition arrived today.  Let me verify, for anyone out there considering doing the same: 4 Beolab 3's sound profoundly more powerful than 2. I can now listen at much lower volume and get comparable sound, and when I crank it up beyond 46 the walls really begin to shake.. pretty impressive..

actually, I feel the need to elaborate a bit. I've been on the brink of upgrading to 4 Beolab 3 for a few years now, and it wasn't till last week that I found 2 additional ones at a price point I could justify.  It is pretty nuts.  I'm guessing that anyone who has the BL3's is also a little enamoured and impressed with the sound they produce at midrange volume levels.. Once you go just a bit too loud though, the limited size and weight of the speaker begins to become apparent, as it begins to sound ever so slightly distressed and over-worked. (though, IMHO, still very respectable for anything the size of a BL3)...

 

now, with 4, one in each corner facing the middle of the room, they fill the entire (15m2 bedroom) bedroom with ample sound at a volume of 20 on the BS3200.. in the 30's it starts to get loud but effortless. past 40 walls and furniture start getting doses of vibrations.  anything past 46 is very very loud, bassy, and visceral. (but the speakers still aren't struggling.. first signs of distortion appear around 56-60)  Maybe I am just a sucker for these speakers, but I'm a little in awe...

So, for anyone considering it.. 2+2>4

Hey there Lee-

just wanted to reiterate how useful your advice was. Unfortunately didn't get around to checking out all the stuff you had mentioned in your posts until this weekend.

 

Radio & TV Eksperten in Denmark seems to have really great deals on a whole bunch of stuff.. The MMC-20CL goes for ca 180€... (Even a BG4002 for 310€ ) and assuming it is in pretty good condition... And that they know how to ship..  

If I can get my cartridge back from the local guy tomorrow, I'll just order the MMC-20CL from them..

thanks again!

Hey Andrew,

RADIO & TV-EKSPERTEN in Denmark seems to have a BG4000 for ca 400€!

Hey Andrew,

RADIO & TV-EKSPERTEN in Denmark seems to have a BG4000 for ca 400€!

Okay, so the saga continues ;) 

After having taken most of the superficial parts of the player apart, along with cleaning and realigning them, I have noticed a pretty distinguishable improvement in aesthetics but also in playback quality.  The cartridge is now a old MMC 20CL, refurbished with Shibata on Aluminium.  Once I lower the base and up the treble on the 3200 I am pretty much happy with the sound... The only problem I still am yet to figure out is why the sound only comes out mono....

1. tapping the plugs on the female DIN- RCA adapter produces sounds both left and right...

2. yesterday I decided to risk it and tapped the first connector inside the record player that the DIN cable connects to... When I click the white cables' connector the left speaker picks it up.. When I click the brown cables' connector the right speaker picks it up....  

- this leads me to the conclusion that the problem lies proximally, somewhere between cartridge (newly refurbished by Axel) and the first connector I was just tapping the leads on...

 

Anyone have any tips on how to further narrow it down? Could the connector for the cartridge be defective? Could there be a problem between cartridge-connector and DIN-Cable connector??? and if so, any ways to strengthen my diagnosis?

anyone have a gut feeling on what it could be?

 

Since I started the post I've added two more BL 3 to my system, and I'm really looking forward to hearing how it sounds when all 4 fire, and not just half of the track....

 

thanks in advance for the tipps!

james

quick update.. just tapped the leads on the tonearm that the cartridge would connect to.. was only able to produce sound in the left speakers by doing this....... So i guess that doesn't bring me much farther, but it solidifies the assumption that the cartridge is Okay....

all I had to do was follow the cables going to the DIN cable inside... Problem found! now I just have to brush up my soldering skills and get er fixed...

looking better otherwise... chassis is 'more centered', platter also a little better... and now the lid closes perfectly... things are looking up!