ARCHIVED FORUM -- March 2012 to February 2022READ ONLY FORUM
This is the second Archived Forum which was active between 1st March 2012 and 23rd February 2022
mawheele:I actually think joining the LVMH group would be the best fit. They understand how to nurture luxury brands
Loads of marketing prowess there too. Good call.
Lee
The major problem was/is that they seem to think that their market is the Bugati Veyron crowd whereas it used to be the professional/middlemanager with an eye for style. It shouldn't be a surprise to any long term fan of the brand!
Ban boring signatures!
Puncher: The major problem was/is that they seem to think that their market is the Bugati Veyron crowd whereas it used to be the professional/middlemanager with an eye for style. It shouldn't be a surprise to any long term fan of the brand!
Excellent point, seems to me the way to keep in business in a world where audio systems and such are becoming less important is not to try and focus on a narrow group of ultra rich people who probably don't get into music systems as much as a "lower class" person might. The Play line, too, focusing on the middle market screwed the pooch by displaying a dismaying set of reliability and networking failures.
Jeff
I'm afraid I'm recovering from the BeoVirus.
9 LEE: In fairness to Tue Mantoni, if you're dealt two fives and a three you can't shout "BlackJack" !! You can only work with what you're given, and he was given a mess. They'd previously ridden the brand and the reputation like a horse through the desert. The horse wasn't fed, it wasn't given any water, and it was handed over laying on the ground staring death in the face... then we expect him to be having it winning the Prix De l'Arc de Triomphe a week later. It's unrealistic. You look at the business model and make your decisions based on exactly what you have in front of you. What he had in front of him was a company ready to go bust. So, do you stick to the brands core values and let it die, or are you forced to deviate to keep it alive that bit longer so you can take stock and have a little bit longer to make decisions. If production was still solely in DK there would be no Bang & Olufsen. I'd rather have B&O still exist to complain about than to not have it at all... We're at a potential crossroads now where the company could be seen as something worth buying and investing in - not running a mile away from. Rather like a house you're selling, the company has had a lick of paint, some junk has been cleared, and some things have been sold in order to do the place up nicely. All I hope for is that the buyer will buy the brand and its values, and not ride the horse until it falls over again. Lee
In fairness to Tue Mantoni, if you're dealt two fives and a three you can't shout "BlackJack" !!
You can only work with what you're given, and he was given a mess. They'd previously ridden the brand and the reputation like a horse through the desert. The horse wasn't fed, it wasn't given any water, and it was handed over laying on the ground staring death in the face... then we expect him to be having it winning the Prix De l'Arc de Triomphe a week later. It's unrealistic.
You look at the business model and make your decisions based on exactly what you have in front of you. What he had in front of him was a company ready to go bust. So, do you stick to the brands core values and let it die, or are you forced to deviate to keep it alive that bit longer so you can take stock and have a little bit longer to make decisions.
If production was still solely in DK there would be no Bang & Olufsen. I'd rather have B&O still exist to complain about than to not have it at all...
We're at a potential crossroads now where the company could be seen as something worth buying and investing in - not running a mile away from. Rather like a house you're selling, the company has had a lick of paint, some junk has been cleared, and some things have been sold in order to do the place up nicely.
All I hope for is that the buyer will buy the brand and its values, and not ride the horse until it falls over again.
I second Lee's opinion here fully. Not much more I can add....
On a positive note - we are having another great year. Avants of all sizes are selling well, even the Moment is picking up...
On the run up to Christmas, I could do with an extra installation team!
It's not all doom and gloom in the B&O dealer world.
SHEFFIELD: On a positive note - we are having another great year. Avants of all sizes are selling well, even the Moment is picking up... On the run up to Christmas, I could do with an extra installation team! It's not all doom and gloom in the B&O dealer world.
We have made a massive investment in the new Wilmslow showroom. It is a stunning environment to showcase both core models and Play lines. Not to mention we have the BeoLab 90's as well.
Opman
Opman:We have made a massive investment in the new Wilmslow showroom. It is a stunning environment to showcase both core models and Play lines. Not to mention we have the BeoLab 90's as well. Opman
StUrrock: Opman: We have made a massive investment in the new Wilmslow showroom. It is a stunning environment to showcase both core models and Play lines. Not to mention we have the BeoLab 90's as well. Opman St Paul's London made a massive investment and closed. So your point is?
Opman: We have made a massive investment in the new Wilmslow showroom. It is a stunning environment to showcase both core models and Play lines. Not to mention we have the BeoLab 90's as well. Opman
St Paul's London made a massive investment and closed.
So your point is?
REALLY?? Uncalled for. Great to hear from the dealers that business is brisk!
Not a lot of Christmas spirit in that message.
Millemissen: Steffen: The days of Bang & Olufsen as we know it is definitely over... sad, but true. Wow - already preparing for a funeral feast - I see no corpse. MM
Steffen: The days of Bang & Olufsen as we know it is definitely over... sad, but true.
The days of Bang & Olufsen as we know it is definitely over... sad, but true.
Wow - already preparing for a funeral feast - I see no corpse.
MM
Read my post. I wrote "As we know it".... So you think that with a new owner it will just be "business as usual"...? Nothing changes..? Dream on.
Steffen: Millemissen: Steffen: The days of Bang & Olufsen as we know it is definitely over... sad, but true. Wow - already preparing for a funeral feast - I see no corpse. MM Read my post. I wrote "As we know it".... So you think that with a new owner it will just be "business as usual"...? Nothing changes..? Dream on.
I read your post, but maybe you should have defined, what 'as we know it' - It might have helpet to understand, what you meant.
B&O hasn't been 'business as usual' for a while and certainly won't be it in the future either.
There is absolutely no reason to blame me for wanting to 'dream on', since I am well aware of the challenges and the changes, that may come In the future..
Actually I am not afraid of what may come - I am sure the DNA of the company will make it survive one way or another.
In oposition to you I seem to still have some trust in, 'what the guys in Struer' are doing....under the current circumstances.
There is a tv - and there is a BV
I don't know what this thread or piece of information is all about. B&O is a publicly traded company without any really large owners and therefore is always up for sale. Just buy the stocks. As for what I have heard, they are doing pretty well recently. So what's the problem?
And looking for an investor has got nothing to do with being up for sale (in the sense of that the firm as a whole is up for sale) by the way. They already have plenty of rather small institutional investors among their owners.
This has got something to do with financing and capital market strategy more than anything else. It's ok to discuss politics of B&O in recent times, but I don't see any connection to the initial post in this thread. Two totally different issues and not really related to some sort of argumentation along the lines of bad policy has led to the apparent misery, which leads them to look for an investor. I feel many in this thread interpret the news in the initial post as transporting such a piece of information. However, the causal chain underlying this reasoning simply does not exist from my point of view - at least not as strongly as many posts in this thread seem to suggest.
Kai
Thanks for bringing this thread back to reality.
Manbearpig: As for what I have heard, they are doing pretty well recently. So what's the problem?
As for what I have heard, they are doing pretty well recently. So what's the problem?
Did you see their end of year accounts ?
What are you hinting at? Stock price is around 10 Euros at the moment and has been less than half of that over the last year. Their 52 week performance is rated very highly at the moment. This is important data for publicly traded companies. I'm very positive that they will be around for much longer and also don't share much of the criticism expressed in this thread with respect to their strategic orientation.
Independent of that - the initial post was about B&O being up for sale, suggesting at least implicitly that they are bankrupt, unable to survive on their own, or not able to compete any longer. And this is simply a totally wrong interpretation of the "news" from my point of view.
Manbearpig: What are you hinting at? Stock price is around 10 Euros at the moment and has been less than half of that over the last year. Their 52 week performance is rated very highly at the moment. This is important data for publicly traded companies. I'm very positive that they will be around for much longer and also don't share much of the criticism expressed in this thread with respect to their strategic orientation. Independent of that - the initial post was about B&O being up for sale, suggesting at least implicitly that they are bankrupt, unable to survive on their own, or not able to compete any longer. And this is simply a totally wrong interpretation of the "news" from my point of view. Kai
I have to say Kai that not being very clued up on this specific subject I immediately thought that the company was bankrupt and had to sell. I will be very relieved if that is not the case. I was under the impression that sales had picked up with all the new B&O Play products being launched. It would be nice to have confirmation on what exactly is occurring.
Ben
How true this statement is.
Pricing products in the stratosphere was and is an unlikely recipe for success. B&O has always carried with it a mystique, elusive answers from so called 'beocare' about the products technical capabilities and customers, (and I count myself in this entrapment) believe that at the significant premium paid offers at least some future proofing , but alas todays products are 'back to the future' leaving customers like me for example with beosystem 4 that will not support 4K or any of the new audio codecs.
Rather worryingly on here some people believe that B&O should not be manufacturing in China- and if one believes a European brand can stand alone without outsourcing to the Far East to some extent is deluded.
It is a pity that B&O outsourced to late, chose outsourcing partners and products that degraded the brand, to seek the 'new tech savvy younger customer' and compete head on in the most competitive of audio sectors with an inferior product. Hence the reason that sales are up but the cost of said sales is the relevant factor here.
There are few companies where such dismal performance would not have bought about exits from the CEO down , when what has been achieved is to alienate the core buyers, sell off the profitable parts, produce a range of 'me-to' Bluetooth devices, leaving a company that cant presently compete In the vision market in which it now competes.
BenSA: I have to say Kai that not being very clued up on this specific subject I immediately thought that the company was bankrupt and had to sell. I will be very relieved if that is not the case.
I have to say Kai that not being very clued up on this specific subject I immediately thought that the company was bankrupt and had to sell. I will be very relieved if that is not the case.
The most interesting companies (to purchase) are those with a good sales record, not those about to go bankrupt. Few companies want to buy a company making a loss, so a company making an offer is usually a positive sign.
The worry for me is where a company wants only part of the B&O business, but isn't being up-front about this. A few years ago, we had a very successful pan-European publishing business. A company proposed a buyout offer which the shareholders accepted. We were all slightly nervous about their intentions and I remember coming in to work early on 2 January for a senior managers meeting with two representatives from the new parent company. We all left thinking everything would be kept 'as is' and we'd receive investment for each department.
What happened next was very unexpected. The new parent company decided to make a quick sell, but keep only the part(s) they wanted, sell the parts they didn't want to other companies. The entire company was split up in to 6 separate components and sold separately. It was never the same again.
Manbearpig:What are you hinting at?
Still don't know what you are trying to say. Don't even know what you mean by accounts. Do you mean their financial statement, income statement, balance sheet, their sales, market share, growth? Sorry, I'm not a native speaker so maybe that is the problem. But still...
355f: Rather worryingly on here some people believe that B&O should not be manufacturing in China- and if one believes a European brand can stand alone without outsourcing to the Far East to some extent is deluded.
I'm sorry to correct your statement, but these myths do not become truer by constantly repeating them!
It is for sure efficiently possible to produce inside your home country. One of these good examples is the Swatch Group. They not only produce the luxury brands like Omega but even the very cheap Swatch watches!As we can see the current board and CEO are simply not able to manage the company efficiently.
So, no offense meant, but Bang & Olufsen must produce in their home country and make a statement! Currently they are on their way of becoming a cheap me-too-Company producing only designer stuff that does not last long enough anymore to be competitive. Sad but true if I look at monuments that prove this like the all-time-unrealibilty-star Beosound 3... and I was so naive to buy 2 of them.
Investors only care about one thing: Money and how to make even more money! Most of them give a sh..t about a specific company and their products and moxxeys example is a good one that shows how it works in the 99% of those cases.
My opinion of Bang & Olufsen looking for an investor is not the most positive, as they should choose very very very careful.I love Bang & Olufsen but it will be ruined by the current "top" managers...
Have you not read previous posts?? I think you are deluded. Are B&O paying you to write this lol (just jokes)
Straight of the top of my head I know of,
Campagnolo
Swatch
Victorinox
Wusthof
Woll
Silit
Miele
Pagani
Bugatti
MV Augusta
If I actually google it, will find heaps more.
Manufacturing in Europe is extremely possible. All it takes is wisdom, passion for the brands core values and good management.
Cooker: 355f: Rather worryingly on here some people believe that B&O should not be manufacturing in China- and if one believes a European brand can stand alone without outsourcing to the Far East to some extent is deluded. Have you not read previous posts?? I think you are deluded. Are B&O paying you to write this lol (just jokes) Straight of the top of my head I know of, Campagnolo Swatch Victorinox Wusthof Woll Silit Miele Pagani Bugatti MV Augusta If I actually google it, will find heaps more. Manufacturing in Europe is extremely possible. All it takes is wisdom, passion for the brands core values and good management.
Maybe I have missed something here- which one of the companies you have listed is an audio brand? and what correlation does the fact that Bugatti and Pagani manufacture in Europe?
All it takes is wisdom and good management- two things that B&O don't have
Cooker: Manufacturing in Europe is extremely possible. All it takes is wisdom, passion for the brands core values and good management.
It is, but not if you want scale. Scale is an issue. One of my key clothing partners (I won't name them) produces all it's clothes in Portugal, using European-sourced fabric. This is their heritage and American's buy in to this heritage as they like the idea of European-produced clothing.
Problem is, they've grown too big too fast. The three factories they use can't keep up with production, limiting the number of products they can make available. Often product is delayed, too. So products from a "Cruise Collection" October launch are still filtering through in December. Retailers have to wait for new stock and so on.
Only solution is to move some manufacturing to bigger factories, mostly outside Europe. But then you use the heritage and a reason people bought in to the brand.
The Czech Republic is Europe - so what is the all the fuss about?
I think TWG was meaning Denmark MM in order to keep B&Os heritage and DNA. If little IITTALA can do it in Finland, then I see no reason why B&O can't especially at the prices that they charge.
I don't see B&O dead in the water with a buyout. Think Aston Martin, Jaguar etc. Still good manufacturing principles with little branding change.
Beosound 8, Beotime, Beocom 4, Beo 5, Lutron Rania, MacBook 15" (Mid 2015), iPad Pro, iPhone 6S, B&O Play H3, Beolit 12, Form 2, A8 Headphones, B&O Play A1, B&O Essence
This may be the case. But: why are you thinking of a buy-out? The initial post has got little (nothing) to do with a buy-out and no significant changes to the ownership structure will happen in the nearer future - no matter whether they find an interested investor or not. B&O is looking to increase its proportion of equity. That's all. There are many potential reasons why they wanna do so and with our information as outsiders it is impossible to tell about the background of this decision.
I've never heard of a company advertising for beeing bought-out by the way. Would be funny though. Such things usually happen against the will of current management. Otherwise current management would be advertising its own lay-off and at the same time strongly state: "Look at us guys. We've completely failed but please buy the company and replace us because we believe that you can do far better than us and increase the firm's value up to its potential where it belongs, which obviously we are unable to do". Which management team would ever make a statement like that?
However, one could argue that only companies that are doing badly are willing to share their ownership (and therefore future earnings). But that's more of a theoretical consideration.
Paul W: I think TWG was meaning Denmark MM in order to keep B&Os heritage and DNA. If little IITTALA can do it in Finland, then I see no reason why B&O can't especially at the prices that they charge.
In that case I'd prefer to add something to the sentence above:
'Manufacturing in Europe is extremely possible. All it takes is wisdom, passion for the brands core values and good management.'
.....and some costumers, to whom the price does not matter.
If someone believes, that you can manufacture the B&O A/V and speakers products at the same costs as in e.g. the Czech Rep,
It only shows how little he knows about manufacturing costs in Denmark.
marexy: according to the products and nothing special designs in recent years it has been expected as second way down.average designs, average quality, too many Chinese production involvement, poor management of the company, recession, price of products, especially TV appliances, and again ... lack of good designs which were in the good times frontrunner of B & O (Beosound overture, 2300, 3000, beosound 9000, BL 8000, BL5, and some designes before that.... Who will give 35,000 euros for BL 90 ?.not many
according to the products and nothing special designs in recent years it has been expected as second way down.average designs, average quality, too many Chinese production involvement, poor management of the company, recession, price of products, especially TV appliances, and again ... lack of good designs which were in the good times frontrunner of B & O (Beosound overture, 2300, 3000, beosound 9000, BL 8000, BL5, and some designes before that....
Who will give 35,000 euros for BL 90 ?.not many
ABSOLUTELY 100% CORRECT. This is precisely why they have failed. I wonder if, like so many companies out there these days, B&O bosses became too arrogant and big for their boots thinking they were B&O and indestructible? WRONG!!!
B&O products are V1-32, BS2, H95, E8 and an Essence remote.11-46 now replaced with Sony A90J 65”, Sony HT-A9, Sony UBP-X800M2 and Sony SRS-NS7.
The Beonic Man: ABSOLUTELY 100% CORRECT. This is precisely why they have failed. I wonder if, like so many companies out there these days, B&O bosses became too arrogant and big for their boots thinking they were B&O and indestructible? WRONG!!!
I second that!
Millemissen: Paul W: I think TWG was meaning Denmark MM in order to keep B&Os heritage and DNA. If little IITTALA can do it in Finland, then I see no reason why B&O can't especially at the prices that they charge. In that case I'd prefer to add something to the sentence above: 'Manufacturing in Europe is extremely possible. All it takes is wisdom, passion for the brands core values and good management.' .....and some costumers, to whom the price does not matter. If someone believes, that you can manufacture the B&O A/V and speakers products at the same costs as in e.g. the Czech Rep, It only shows how little he knows about manufacturing costs in Denmark. MM
So, the company is 90 years old and was able to manufacture approx. 80 years in Denmark and "suddenly" it isn't possible anymore? I highly doubt that or all the people in Denmark must have lost their job because they are all simply too expensive!?It was, it is and it will be simply a failure of the management! They ruined the company and they still try to.
It is very difficult for a company that once employed thousands and was able to justify a massive factory complex to shrink down to adjust to new market conditions. Competitors have started up with low overheads and are expanding into the same markets. I would assume that B&O also have huge legacy costs like pension scheme liabilities.
Graham
TWG:So, the company is 90 years old and was able to manufacture approx. 80 years in Denmark and "suddenly" it isn't possible anymore? I highly doubt that or all the people in Denmark must have lost their job because they are all simply too expensive!?It was, it is and it will be simply a failure of the management! They ruined the company and they still try to.
Because maybe there is something we can call the digital revolution? The audio/video market is definitely not one I'd like to be engaged in these days (just like the airline market or the music industry). Ask anybody in the business or any repair shop - business is going down. I think B&O is doing pretty well holding its own in what I would call very difficult circumstances. Kudos for that. They used to be a niche manufacturer anyway with their quality proposition, price tags and all, and that's what we got to like them for. But the niche does no longer exist for a company their size (not really big, but also not really small). As a consequence, they needed to change their strategy. It's pretty obvious that most on here won't like that because we don't get the same quailty designwise and in terms a craftsmanship any longer - but hey, they are still delivering pretty well in these respects, too. There will be less expensive gimmicks (the magic?) that nobody is willing to pay for these days anyway. But this way, they can survive and are doing pretty well at it. They are diversifying with high-end world calss speakers on the one side and budget products (Beoplay) on the other. They are concentrating on the primary functions of their products (e.g., sound of their speakers), compromising design and other secondary features. Again, it's very hard to tell from the outside and there's always a lot to criticize. But I can perfectly see where they are coming from and think that management is doing a decent job. I'm positive that they will be around for much longer. They will continue to come up with many new products that a lot of us will get to like. But then again it's hard to tell in these market conditions and my crystal ball is defective at the moment (no B&O, unfortunately ;-) ).
TWG: So, the company is 90 years old and was able to manufacture approx. 80 years in Denmark and "suddenly" it isn't possible anymore? I highly doubt that or all the people in Denmark must have lost their job because they are all simply too expensive!?It was, it is and it will be simply a failure of the management! They ruined the company and they still try to.
The decision to make the factory in the Czech Rep was made long ago - I first read about it in 2004 (!!!).
And it was made from a former management (with Torben Ballegård as CEO). Anders Knutzen, who was the CEO from 1992 untill 2001 has in an interview applauded this as a wise move.
There was absolutely no 'suddently' about that!
By the way - I know quite a few people, who used to work at B&O in Struer and who 'have lost their jobs'. Most of these have found another job or are retired. The danes are rather flexible, when it comes to finding and/or creating new jobs.
If operating costs are higher in Denmark, then that just means there is less meat on the bone for profit. This is were dignity, respect and greed clash and where stubborn little companies shine and are adored by their fans for hanging in there.
And as far as newer companies coming on the market offering "the same" for less, well so what? As long as B&O are true to their roots, MM in country of origin and administer extremely high standards to all products, these newer companies can't compete and you will still have the niche that draws people to B&O.
Why can't B&O management just be happy with that? Why must the profit goal posts keep on shifting? You cannot have very high quality with very high profits. The two do not go hand in hand. You cannot serve both masters. One wil always dominate the other.
B&O should be making the best products they can, out of passion and a desire to innovate and come up with game changing designs, not having products designed to flip a quick buck, wether that means changing country of manufacture, skimping on materials, hiring lower grade designers etc etc
Doesnt a track record mean anything?? This quality first approach has served B&O well for 80 years. Isn't 80 years a long enough run to establish what works? As the saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Apparently B&O needed "fixing".
Hmmmmm Damn lot of good that's done. Where is B&O hiring these managers? From previous company's where they have "done well"?
This is a major problem. It's like letting 2 babies get raised to adulthood from 2 sources. One a loving intelligent human, the other, a programmed robot that does all the "correct things". What child will turn out more successful overall in life? The one raised by a human, because only a human truly knows what a human needs in all aspects of life.
Likewise, B&O does not need a new manager with 10 gold medals in business management, instead they need some one with some business smarts, but predominantly a huuuge passion for the brand, its core values and what it stands for. Someone who is physically sick at how this wonderfull company has been raped and pillaged and will do everything in their power to restore it to its former glory. They also need faith. Faith, that it will take longer to raise B&O up out of the quagmire then what it took to destroy it, but in 10-15 years time, when B&O is again the only audio product that combines art, design, high end materials/manufacture, technology etc etc A product that people are proud to have in their houses, and like a Patek Phillipe watch "pass it onto the next generation", Then he will say "It has been accomplished".
Cooker, I agree with you 100% but you know, the world has never been in such a terrible mess, and it's because humans have become truly greedy and selfish. I see uneducated idiots with zero respect or interest in the environment driving Range Rovers - bellowing out diesel fumes which causes cancer in your children, consuming vast amounts of oil which, let's face it, is the cause of war and corruption and terrorism And with zero respect for pedestrians and animals as a perfect example. A lot of people are just out for themselves and it is so true of many businesses. Sadly until a terrible world catastrophe wakes up the selfish humans, it's just going to continue. Greed and share holders have truly destroyed business and humans. But, we all can do something about it - just don't buy into the product! Buy ethical products. Buy organic. Buy local. Don't change your phone every year. Instead travel more. See the great outdoors. Simple as that, in the long run, you'll be a lot happier :)
Paul W: A lot of people are just out for themselves..
A lot of people are just out for themselves..
Paul, it's been like that since caveman days! It's always been a case of 'do or die' going back thousands of years. People would fight each other just to eat and live.
People moan about the political system, but it's never really been any different for hundreds of years. Won't change. No point spending your days thinking we're heading for catastrophe or there needs to be change - people have been talking that way since way before the Middle Ages. Indeed, back then, class separation was far greater than it is now.
In regards to B&O, for at least 70% of people, where they manufacture their products won't influence people's purchasing decisions. The biggest issue is that most people do not have the cash to spend on B&O equipment and find it harder to justify, particularly since the 2008 global crash. There's just not enough people keen to spend £6000 on a TV or £4000 on a pair of speakers, however much we love the brand.
The average customer doesn't worry too much about where BMW make their cars (most people just assume Germany), or where Armani produce their clothes (China, now, on the whole, and it's barely affected Armani), it's the cost and availability that's the issue for the majority.
moxxey:In regards to B&O, for at least 70% of people, where they manufacture their products won't influence people's purchasing decisions.
I can only speak for myself obviously, but in my case this holds true for B&O TVs priced around £3.500.
For a £6000 TV set I feel like I just can't make myself "swallow that bitter pill". Could be what Paul W said in one of the threads: many things have changed after 2008 and people are simply more selective with what justifies such price and what not. Yes, I could push myself to spend 6K but for something I find extraordinary - let's say "future" BV11 with 4K OLED manufactured in Denmark.
Are there also people who will still buy at current price even if it is CZ-assembled - from B&O sales results looks like yes, only not enough of them. :/